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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
| Why twitch gamers suck or stop screwing with my CRPGs! @ NWN |
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NWN2News' Rhomal has written a new editorial titled <a href="http://www.nwn2news.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=312" target="_blank">Why twitch gamers suck or stop screwing with my CRPGs!</a>. Here's the opening:<blockquote><em>It is undeniable the influence first person shooters (FPS) and real time strategy (RTS) have had on computer RPG’s (CRPG) in recent years. Back in the day of Sir Tech and SSI CRPG’s there was no instant gratification. They were slower placed, long drawn out stories, mostly turn based combat, with highly detailed characters and stats. Compared a Sir Tech CRPG and Doom 1 was pretty obvious differences back then.
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<br>With the popularity of games like the Red Alert series which put RTS’s on the map in the mid 90’s (and the dozens of clones that followed) the CRPG industry felt the need to keep pace (and get a slice of the pie) it seemed.</em></blockquote>Thanks, Rhomal. |
Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:19 am |
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lostzac
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 27
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I agree with you, while when I started Storms over Anathon, I thought about how to make both players happy.
I decided to add what i thought was best from both area's. The game allows 4 choice camera modes. The combat system was developed from all perspectives, so fps players chould have the fun with the hack n slash, while players like me could enjoy the isometric views of old. The combat system is being designed with a ai thatallows the players to pause the game and assign thier npc's commands as in the old days, as well as give each npc a defualt ai so the fps player wouldnt have to worry about what his party is doing.
In my opion in the end, what it comes down to is the story. I spent along time writting the story from many perspectives, allowing the player to play the character. This may annoy the fps people as they tend to want to junt run and blow things up, but to me you can't have a good rpg with out a in depth story. |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:26 am |
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Mystery_Guy
Village Dweller
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 20
Location: U.S. |
I think Lostzac hit the nail on the head.
For me, a great story will make me forgive and forget anything that I don't like in a game. Horrible graphics, buggy gameplay, and even real time combat.
I'm one of those rare types who enjoys both FPS games and RPGs (Thoguh I'm more of an RPG'er), and even though this is true, I'm always disappointed when I find out a game is real time or relies on a pause command. I guess this is why I worship Wizardry 8 and have gone through it 4 different times.
I think the market for turn based gameplay and/or what I call "Contemplative Combat" is out there, it's just that most of the games that have used that have either been bug-infested commercial flops (POR2, ToEE) or niche games that only the hardcore folks like us can get into (Wizardry 8, Fallout).
What we need is for a developer to make the next great "contemplative combat" RPG and put 100% of their effort behind it. No bugs, no gameplay shortcuts taken, and put a good hype machine behind it. |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:58 am |
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lostzac
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 27
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Lets face its the story we all fall in love with...I have had few friends who have played awsome graphic games or the latest fade, come up to me telling me to check a game out, and then find that same game being played by them 3 months latter...
yet for some reason we all still talk about Baulders Gate, Fallout, and other great classics that are outdated by years. Heck I can still quote from BG1.
and my copy of the game I still play and still go back for ideas on flow of story and feel of a game.
Don't get me wrong every once in a while I wanna go out and hack something to death...but that gets boring after a while...but when your engrossed in a good story, be a game or a book...those you never put down. |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:56 am |
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TheCleric
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 230
Location: Upstate NY, USA |
It's an interesting article. Arguments can be made for either side of it.
Personally, I think the Publishers and to some extent, the Dev's are at fault. A lot of the old FPS games were just too simple. Players got tired of running through the game killing everything in sight (think Serious Sam), with nothing but the simplest puzzles, requiring little or no thought. They wanted a little more depth, a little more to the story.
There were some good successes; Dues Ex, Half-Life, Duke Nukem, Heretic 2, Hexen 2, Unreal and more. They all had lots of running around and killing, but also had a more cohesive story and usually at least some RPG ellements.
Then there were others that had even more RPG elements; Outcast, Crusaders of M&M, Gothic, Gothic 2, VTM: Bloodlines and others.
At the same time, there were the Baldur's Gate, NWN, Diablo and other games that arguabley put more emphasis on the RPG elements, but are still "twitchier" than some people might like.
Basically, I think what we're seeing is the Publishers putting pressure on the Dev's to make their games appeal to as wide an audience as possible. They're trying to do this, by combining various FPS and RPG elements in their games. But the're really not following any formula per say. They're not making an FPS with RPG elements or making an RPG with FPS elements. Just trying to make sure their games have a little of both and hope that the masses like it. It might be nice if they went back to developing a game mostly of one genre with elements of the other mixed in, but I don't think we're going to see too much of that.
Doom 3 is the closest I've seen to a straight up FPS in quite a while. I think Morrowind came a long way toward making a good RPG "for the masses" (just a little too open ended. No sense of urgency to work through the plot at all). Hopefully Oblivion will hit the nail on the head. But overall, I think we're going to see more and more mixing of the genre's.
I think we are seeing a swing towards the RPG side of the coin. Just look at what's coming up; Oblivion, Gothic 3, The Witcher, Neverend, Dark Messiah of M&M, Fable; The lost Chapters and probably others I'm totally forgetting about. I really don't follow the Isometric RPG's, so I can't comment on what's in the works for them.
One thing I'm glad to see though, is the fuss players have made about Dungeon Lords. At least it's letting Publishers and Dev's throughout the business know that we will still hold them to some standards regarding what level of quality we'll accept. And reminding them that bad press and word of mouth can still kill a game if the players feel they've been ripped off. Hopefully other publishers will notice this and make note of it. It might make them pause and really take a look when a Developer tells them that this or that game just isn't ready yet, rather than pushing it out "as is" with plans to patch it later. The way I see it, this can only result in better, more polished games for all of us.
I think we will occaisionally see games that solidly belong to one particular genre or another, but for the most part I think we'll have to keep looking through the myrid combinations to find the ones that appeal to us. |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:06 am |
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guenthar
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 20 Jun 2003
Posts: 26
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Rpg's are not just about the story (if they were they would be adventure games) The gameplay is very important and in alot of cases more important then the story. Morrowind is still being played today (modded also) and it was mostly about the gameplay and environment but definetly not a fps game. (even though it was in a first-person perspective) |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:12 am |
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Dajjer
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 49
Location: Los Angeles area |
I enjoyed the article, but why is it he only held up Balders Gate and Fallout as the epitome of CRPGs? He seemed to have convienently left out Morrowind and Gothic. Two extrodinary contemporary CRPGs that are in my opinion waving the role playing banner proudly.
Developers and publishers will do what they can to make money so I find it hard to really fault them for catering to the masses. Still, there will always be some company that makes the type of games I like, it's just going to be a longer wait.
One idea I liked in the comments section was to perhaps change the name of CRPGs. Far to many companies like to throw the RPG tag in when they're making and releasing info on a game, when in realtity the game is really an action or stratagy game. It's strange that while they are making less of the CRPGs that I like, I still seem to be a demographic that marketeers are attracted to. |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:17 am |
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bjon045
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 234
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It boggles the mind that 2 of the biggest selling games ever are isometric games - BG (4 million copies?) and Diablo 2(more of a point and click fest than an rpg, wasn't it around 8 million copies?), and yet all we see being produced are FPS 3D based games.
Isometric and turn based games go hand in hand and so now all the major studios pretty much exclusively develop FPS based games so they can show off their flashy state-of-the-art 3D effects at E-3 and in games magazines - after all, who would want to look at a boring isometric game when they can look at a game that makes use of the pixel shader 3.0 or whatever the F$%K it is. If you want flashy life-like graphics here is a f%^king idea, LOOK OUT THE F'IN WINDOW!!!
Don't get me wrong I am looking forward to Oblivion but where the hell is BG3, wiz9, m&m 10? |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:17 am |
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slak
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 122
Location: Sweden |
Did BG really sell 4 million copies? are you counting the entire series then or just the first game?
Does anyone know where you can see the sales figures from games? |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:03 am |
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bjon045
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 234
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over 5 million units for the series.
From: http://www.bioware.com/bioware_info/about/
BALDUR'S GATE SERIES
* The Baldur's Gate series: Baldur's Gate I, Baldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast, Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn, and Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal have sold approximately 5 million units world-wide with sales still continuing
* Baldur's Gate, released in 1998 has sold over 2 million units for PC and has won many industry awards; in 1999, BioWare released Baldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast, a Baldur's Gate expansion pack. It debuted at #1 worldwide and sold over 600,000 units
* Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn, was released in Sept. 2000 and continued the award winning story line of the Baldur's Gate series, selling over 2 million units so far; in June 2001. Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal was released, the expansion pack to the award winning Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn, and the conclusion to the Baldur's Gate series, selling more than 500,000 units
* The Baldur's Gate franchise has won multiple Game of the Year and RPG of the Year awards |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:01 pm |
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txa1265
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 390
Location: Marlborough, MA USA |
I tend to think that the assumption/assertion that 'RPG's are *this* and *this* alone' is self-limiting, arrogant and isolationist. The examples of Gothic and Morrowind work well ... but then so does Divine Divinity, which managed to have an action-based combat system and tons of depth and fun.
At the same time, I think that a very compelling argument is made that games like World of Warcraft and Dungeon Siege II selling so well and getting such good reviews means that 'traditional' RPG's are getting harder to make. Add to that the high-profile failure of Dungeon Lords, the lack of support from Valve and terrible sales (and bugginess) of VtM: Bloodlines, and you have a recipe for 'too risky to try'. It is only the rare 'Gothic III' or 'Elder Scrolls IV' that get made.
Which leaves us with small independant shops. I have no problem there, but the results have been less than stellar - Restricted Area and Metalheart: Replicants Rampage are two that come to mind. Restricted Area is a classic 'what is wrong' example - all fast pace and setup, no 'meat'. Metalheart wants to be Fallout, and tries to be Fallout, but forgets that it is not as simple as 'looks like a duck, acts like a duck, must be a duck'.
I still think that there is hope - I liked Heretic Kingdoms, it wasn't great but it worked pretty well and I recommend it to people. Mount & Blade is also pretty decent. I am ever hopeful for more quality games to come along - and I am pretty open to how they choose to blend the role-playing and action.
Mike
_________________
Dopelar effect (n.) The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
Check out my blog. |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:16 pm |
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lostzac
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 27
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Accutaly I didnt hold up Morrowind not becuse it wasn't a great game, because it was, I didnt hold it up for the story. As you have said it was to open ended.
Though I tend to think after story, Rpg is more about your character development, designing him/her as you see them, watching them progress and a feeling of acomplishment.
Controls are important in any game, rather its Rpg, Stratagy, or FPS
I just beleive that in a rpg, the story, the interaction within the story are more important then the issue of the game control.
Combat - Nwn the first one was not turn base, though you could set the pause and latter adaptions came out to gear it more for turn base, was in itself a decent game. The controls weren't great. In all the forums I have been to most post were about the game, was about the story being less then spectacular, not many even talked about the combat system, and even less the game control issues. |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:03 pm |
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bjon045
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 234
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quote:
Originally posted by txa1265
I tend to think that the assumption/assertion that 'RPG's are *this* and *this* alone' is self-limiting, arrogant and isolationist. The examples of Gothic and Morrowind work well ... but then so does Divine Divinity, which managed to have an action-based combat system and tons of depth and fun.
Aren't all 3 games you mentioned action-rpgs? No one is debating that action-rpg and console rpg's aren't alive and well, I think the reviewer is lamenting on the fact that turn based rpg's are rare breed these days.
I don't think it is isolationist to want a particular type of game (in this case "turn-based") the market is more than large enough to support it. If BG had been turn-based rather than real-time/phased I think it still would have sold the 5mil copies that it did. TOEE sold well enough - from Leonard Boyarsky of Troika "One of the problems with our games is that they sell good numbers, but it takes a long time for them to do so. ". There is clearly a market for it, which strangely none of the big-players seem to be interested in.
Morrowind has sold over 4.5 million units to date....I imagine that's why they are so keen to get Oblivion out. If fallout 3 has a turn based option for combat (I believe Beth. soft. hinted at the possibility of including both) then here's hoping it will be the signal for more companies to produce them. |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:03 pm |
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lostzac
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 27
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I know we at Storms are working on a combat system thats turn base, that is not paused orientaited. I still think the story is the most essintal part of a good rpg, and then character development, but I cant ignore the post made to this thread either.
So ill pose the question...what makes a good turn based combat system, what controls...
I personaly dont like having to control a party of adventures, it takes away from the role play feel, as well as your party really becomes one entity.
What about a turn based combat system, in which you still could only control the character your playing, have strategic control elements, but still allow the npc's to follow thier own set ai ? like maybe a leadership flag, and based upon that the npc whould decide if your actions would decide if it would be best for him/her ?
_________________
Face the coming Storm
Storms over Anathon
www.mythopoeagames.com |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:47 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
Article was right on target.
_________________
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Just plain clueless= |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:39 pm |
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