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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
| First the dodo bird, now rpgs |
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From a Bioware ceo:
"We’re quite interested in merging some of the features of different genres in with those of “traditional” RPGs. For example, the upcoming Jade Empire martial arts action-RPG includes features which will appeal to RPG fans, action-RPG fans, and action-adventure fans. We think that by including features of different genres in our games, we’ll broaden our fan base and continue to appeal to a large group of both hard-core and mainstream game fans."
This to me means simple and easy games that require little thought and quick mouse clicking or keyboard hitting. That is not really what an RPG is to me. When I think RPG I think of the opposite: lots of thinking and no quick mouse clicking or keyboard hitting.
But this is a good business model. ToEE didn't do to well and thats probably the only real rpg that came out in a while, in fact "rpg" fans hated it. Take the thought out of a game and throw in some fast action and you have a hit, but not much of an rpg in my opinion.
I'm really thinking of switching genres. I just played the FArcry demo and I got exactly what I expected. Its a first person shooter, and guess what? I shot people from a first person perspective. It adds up and makes perfect sense. I play an "rpg" and I don't play a role anymore than I do in Zelda or Mario Brothers or Megaman. My character's ability is not as much a part of the role as my own. Most mega hit "rpgs" don't even have character generation.
What the hell is going on? Corporate publishers are done with pure rpgs. The only hope for real rpgs is from small indy developers or switching to pen and paper. And not only do none of my friends play rpgs, my wife dragged me to gayville, nowhere USA and I have no friends...... Hold me.....Make love to me....Call me Sally the salad lover.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:40 am |
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Korplem
Swashbuckler
Joined: 23 Dec 2002
Posts: 853
Location: Pearl Harbor, HI |
Don't you think you're being a little severe? Sure, so Bioware kicked us in the nuts to make a few bucks. Can you really blame them? RPGs arent dead they're just rare.
*hold Roqua*
*makes love to Roqua*
*Calls Roqua 'Sally the salad lover'*
*shudders* What the crap did I just do that for?
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If soot stains your tunic, dye it black. This is vengeance.
-The Prince of Nothing |
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Fri Feb 27, 2004 6:35 am |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
Thats because all the concentration is on MMORPGs right now. |
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Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:14 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
| Re: First the dodo bird, now rpgs |
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quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
From a Bioware ceo:
"We’re quite interested in merging some of the features of different genres in with those of “traditional” RPGs. For example, the upcoming Jade Empire martial arts action-RPG includes features which will appeal to RPG fans, action-RPG fans, and action-adventure fans. We think that by including features of different genres in our games, we’ll broaden our fan base and continue to appeal to a large group of both hard-core and mainstream game fans."
This to me means simple and easy games that require little thought and quick mouse clicking or keyboard hitting. That is not really what an RPG is to me. When I think RPG I think of the opposite: lots of thinking and no quick mouse clicking or keyboard hitting.
But this is a good business model. ToEE didn't do to well and thats probably the only real rpg that came out in a while, in fact "rpg" fans hated it. Take the thought out of a game and throw in some fast action and you have a hit, but not much of an rpg in my opinion.
I can only agree about the watering down of what should suppose to be real CRPG's. Now it's a long time since I felt I played a decently CRPG, I probably have to go back to Gothic 2 or Wizardry 8, and Divine divinity. TOEE had the slow turnbased combat which I prefer, but everything else in this game was below standard: No real main story (explore the tower???), bad side quests, boring and repetive and not to forget very small gameworld, only 8-9 levels upgrade with the already way to simple (Maybe not for P&P, but for CRPG's) D&D rules, tons of bugs. No in my opinion this game should never had been released, because it will harm the interest for making more CRPG's a lot more than it fills a (big) hole of lacking CRPG releases. Worst case scenario: Look!, they made TOEE, and see how bad the sales was, there seems no longer to be profitable to release further real CRPG's!?
Good CRPG's are probably the hardest games to program, and probably also takes the longest time, and that's probably the two major issues, when we talk about the lack of real CRPG's
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Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:06 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
I'm 100% with you, Roqua. The only comment I'd make is that while I'd prefer something "old-school" and "hardcore", if the new genre-blending action-adventure RPGs are good games in their own rights, I'll still enjoy them.
Bioware are complete masters at learning to tap broad-based mass-market appeal and undoubtedly other developers will try to emulate their success. However, true CRPGs will always exist - even if only as a niche genre (more so than now). Adventures and wargames are still made - even the occasional decent TB strategy - so someone will continue to make CRPGs.
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Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:50 am |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
Hmmm... in principle, I don't see a problem with CRPGs incorporating elements from elsewhere, and I do think the genre is riddled with out-of-date conventions that don't really serve a purpose any more...
However, I haven't yet seen an example of this new breed of CRPGs that does it satisfactorily. I liked Deus Ex 2, but it was no RPG. I have faith in Bioware, although I thought KOTOR seemed a little light (I only played a small part of the xbox version, though). I've also got high hopes for what Arkane are doing... they did a good job of mixing old and new in Arx Fatalis, considering it was their first game and resources were tight, so hopefully they'll continue to push CRPGs in a direction that fans actually like (except Roqua, I know he dislikes realtime, some people are just fussy  ).
Having said all that, I think this is putting the horse before the cart... I like good games, and it just so happens that the games that satisfy me most tend to be RPGs... if in the future there are still good games, but they don't fit into a set of old (and possibly outdated) genre conventions, I don't see a problem. Text Adventures turned into "Interactive Fiction," and IMO are all the better for it.
@Roqua, off-topic a bit, but remember we were talking about UFO: Aftermath a while back? I just had a crack on the (working) demo, and if you haven't tried it yet I reckon you should check it out. Turn-based mechanics, expressed in realtime so the timing is realistic, but in a way that never requires reflexive input. And character development is a lot more complex & personalised than the old X-COM games, you get to pick stats & skills to improve for each individual soldier. The strategic side of the game is disabled in the demo, but the squad tactics stuff is great. IMO it's a much better expression of turn-based mechanics than the way Infinity Engine and similar CRPG systems do it. |
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Fri Feb 27, 2004 1:29 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
quote:
Originally posted by piln
Having said all that, I think this is putting the horse before the cart... I like good games, and it just so happens that the games that satisfy me most tend to be RPGs... if in the future there are still good games, but they don't fit into a set of old (and possibly outdated) genre conventions, I don't see a problem. Text Adventures turned into "Interactive Fiction," and IMO are all the better for it.
Sure, don't be afraid for the evolutionary progress, but if watered down CRPG's like KoTor, TOEE, Spellforce and Sacred, just to mention a few, is examples of the the new genre convension, I surely understand why many CRPG gamers are concerned. I don't think the concern is about technology progress at all ex. "text" to "interactive fiction", but more that the development of CRPG's complexity is downgraded, to simple keyboard banging, and/or with gameplay complexity and/or story quality that even 10 year old kids finds insulting.
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Fri Feb 27, 2004 2:03 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
Well, the changes in interactive fiction are not really down to technological advances, more due to the fact that there is no longer any commercial interest in the form... there still is a devoted fanbase and lots of good authors who are still interested, and it is relatively easy for a single person to program a work of IF. So, since commercial issues no longer have any bearing, we now have IF that is a lot more experimental, mature, sophisticated and original than a publisher-controlled industry would allow.
Could the same happen with CRPGs? Well, as you say, they are much more complex than games of most other genres, so that may seem like a stumbling block. Then again, we've recently seen CRPGs ship with some comprehensive toolsets, so it may be that, while publishers continue to trot out lightweight titles, the mod scene will cater for those with more "hardcore" tastes. Whatever happens, there will always be intelligent gamers who demand intelligent games, and developers who want to make those games - even if they are deemed unmarketable. As long as the tools are available, and interest remains, I don't see anything catastrophic happening. |
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Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:09 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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Uh... ToEE had basically everything an RPG should have, it's just that it was too small. Sidequests are hard to cmplain about since you can find equally silly missions in most other RPGs.
Furthermore, I don't think RPGs need turn based combat. Combat should be more character dependant, sure, but it can be done in RT or with pause function.
I also don't see the problem of focusing on a modding-community, which will undoubtly extend the game life-span. Look at Neverwinter. Bad single-player but fun to play online. I don't know about you, but last year WAS a pretty GOOD RPG year. New expansions for some good RPGs, and a host of semi-good RPGs, which is really good since you can stick to older games thanks to modding. But, I guess that kind freedom and world building isn't for old-skewl harcorde playas, right?
quote:
Could the same happen with CRPGs? Well, as you say, they are much more complex than games of most other genres, so that may seem like a stumbling block. Then again, we've recently seen CRPGs ship with some comprehensive toolsets, so it may be that, while publishers continue to trot out lightweight titles, the mod scene will cater for those with more "hardcore" tastes. Whatever happens, there will always be intelligent gamers who demand intelligent games, and developers who want to make those games - even if they are deemed unmarketable. As long as the tools are available, and interest remains, I don't see anything catastrophic happening.
I don't think so. Warcraft 3 is far more complex than many RPGs (like Morrowind or Gothic) but in AN-strategic-combat-combined-with-resource-handling-and-OTHER-things kind of WAY.
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Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Fri Feb 27, 2004 3:35 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
I don't think so. Warcraft 3 is far more complex than many RPGs (like Morrowind or Gothic) but in AN-strategic-combat-combined-with-resource-handling-and-OTHER-things kind of WAY.
Sorry, not sure I'm following you... "don't think so" in response to what? You don't think good CRPGs could still be made if commercial interest in the genre declines, or you don't think CRPGs are particularly complex? Or something else? |
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Fri Feb 27, 2004 5:50 pm |
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Ican
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Posts: 185
Location: UK |
quote:
Thats because all the concentration is on MMORPGs right now
And to think all that concentration produced such gems such as ...... "Shadowbane", " SWG" and "Horizon's : Empire of Istaria".
Shudder.
I sincerely hope that developers' don't plough all their resources into MMROPG's ( or bastardisations thereof ). The ability and technology just isn't there at the moment.
Long live "old school" RPGs. I think they will continue to exist because there is a market for them. Albeit a niche one. Ah well, I don't have the time to play many there days anyway I guess. |
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Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:09 pm |
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hoyp
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 501
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quote:
Warcraft 3........complex
sorry, couldnt resist
Last edited by hoyp on Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:26 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
Did any of you play the Farcry demo? The graphics are amazing or I'm easily impressed. I have no hand dexterity or coordination so I have yet to clear the first hut, but dying has pretty good graphics.
This post by Crichton on the Atari forums is a pretty good summary of what is wrong with ToEE (some things I never thought of or knew).
"What I would like to point out is that fixed or broken, the content of this game is garbage. I've had quite a bit of fun playing around w/ the engine, but as far as the atmosphere, plot, npc charecterisation, possiblities for anything but combat, game length et al, well, let's start at the beginning...
1. Vigenettes: They blow. I can remember back when my writing was like this, but I was in fourth grade, and no one was paying me for it. Rushed isn't the word, whoever wrote these ought to be beaten with sticks.
2. Enviroment/Atmosphere: I don't expect every game that comes out to use all of the improvements from the previous games in that genre, but the idea that they felt they couldn't implement some simple descriptions of the enviroment/weapons is preposterous.
3. Plot: Playing through the game doesn't answer any of the questions that it provokes, even simple ones like "what is the relationship between Z. and Iuz?", "Who is Z.?", "why did Z. build this temple?" It's a common problem, when the entire development staff reads the module five times, it becomes difficult to remember that not everyone else has, if this were a beta-test, that'd be fine. But releasing a 'finished product' with holes like this is just unprofessional.
4. Dialog: There are countries where a man can be killed for writing like that. I wasn't expecting PS:T here, but they didn't even bother putting all the standard options in. More than once dialogs have forced me to do something I didn't want simply b/c often there wasn't even a choice to end the conversation. The banter w/ enemies before some of the big fights is enough to make one cringe. And don't get me started on the dialog with the temple high priests, it manages to be both tedious and uninformative simultaneously.
5. AI: If you have a game that consists entirely of 20 hours of combat, you need to have AI that makes it worth playing. Not only is the AI in this game so bad that it's mystifying, but they made a huge deal pre-release about how great it was going to be. The archers remember their stupid 5' step perhaps one time in four, the highest level wizard in the game attacks the party w/ a kitchen knife, enemy wizards will cast enlarge person on archers, or if they aren't available on PC's. And in case that weren't bad enough, the patch looks to have made this worse.
6. Blaming the Module: I read ToEE after finishing the game and wondering what the devil was going on. It's not great, in fact it has problems, but it has background, a story, worthwhile encounters, these didn't make it into the game. That's regretable, but then troika turning around and blaming gygax for the lack of storytelling in their work is discraceful.
7. Blaming Atari: I don't like infrogames better than anyone else, but not putting any text in their game and then *****ing about a 300k word limit in a 20 hour game (BG2 was 360k and four times as long) shows you who the real "whiners" are on this forum.
I was really in troika's corner when this game was in development, I'm a huge fan of Arcanum, but troika burned their rep w/ me on this one."
I liked toEE 100 times more than Arcanum (mostly due to Arcanums combat and the way items were). But imagine if the managed to meld arcanum story/plot into ToEE 2?
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Sat Feb 28, 2004 3:14 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
@Piln,
I played the UFO demo. I know I sound picky but I just couldn't get into the phased combat, I still have the demo so I'll probably give it another try. Aliens kept killing me and I had no idea I wa being killed.
What did you think of Harn by the way, after you got to check out the combat rules?
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Sat Feb 28, 2004 4:32 am |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
@Roqua: Yeah, the Harn rules look good. For some reason, I had assumed it would be pretty complex, but it seems quite simple & streamlined while being realistic at the same time. If I was still into p&p I'd definitely give it a go.
So... do you guys see any CRPGs on the horizon that, in your opinion, look like they'll be true to their roots, ie not dumbed-down or cross-bred with other genres? Like I said before, I personally don't have a problem with influences form other genres creeping into CRPGs (in principle, at least), but at the same time I can see value in the old-skool methods (mostly  ). So what do you reckon? I don't know too much about it, but I think the Fall might turn out to be a good one in this respect. |
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Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:56 pm |
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