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Christation
Village Dweller
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 24
Location: Louisiana, US |
| Gamespot Article - Massively in Need of Improvement |
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Gamespot has a great read entitled <a href="http://www.gamespot.com/features/6085963/p-10.html" target="_blank">Massively in Need of Improvement</a>. The article begins:
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<br><blockquote><em>I am a bitter, jaded, and thoroughly disillusioned gamer. When I play a masterwork like Knights of the Old Republic, my shriveled little heart swells just a little, but there is always some unfortunate compromise that shrinks it right back down. In all of video games, there's one genre that stands out in my mind as being the paragon of unfortunate compromises--the massively multiplayer online role-playing game. Since their inception, MMORPGs have flaunted their patch-driven premise. They were new, they were exciting, and they gave us an idea of what the Internet could really do for gaming. The problem is that the MMORPG hasn't undergone any serious appreciable changes since its inception. Now that the newness has worn off, the cracks have begun to show.
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<br>Ultima Online, EverQuest, and Asheron's Call were the three games responsible for bringing massively multiplayer gameplay to the masses. For what they were, these games were fantastic achievements. What they should have done was pave the way for new MMORPGs similarly willing to take risks. What they should have done was spark a renaissance of innovation. What they did was create yet another set of genes from which countless games could be cloned. What should have been the first, shaky step down a long, long road has become a roadblock placed across it. So, what can be done? I propose four basic changes to the MMORPG formula that would breathe life into the stagnating field.
<br></em></blockquote> |
Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:35 am |
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Stormwaltz
Village Dweller
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 15
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| Anyone who seriously advocates permadeath in an MMORPG... |
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Anyone who seriously advocates permadeath in an MMORPG is not worth listening to. I can't think of a single RPG in which there has been permadeath. If you don't believe me, remember your saved games. Further, permadeath in any multiplayer game is basically handing a supreme achievement to grief players.
_________________
Former Dev: Asheron's Call, AC:DM, AC2
Current Dev: Dragon Age |
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Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:43 am |
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Dean
Guest
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The author of this article should play Dransik/Ashen Empires. It deals with several of the concepts he/shes has adressed bar the combat issue. Although the player creation of houses etc is yet to be put into the game. |
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Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:51 am |
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Guest
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| Re: Anyone who seriously advocates permadeath in an MMORPG.. |
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormwaltz
Anyone who seriously advocates permadeath in an MMORPG is not worth listening to. I can't think of a single RPG in which there has been permadeath. If you don't believe me, remember your saved games. Further, permadeath in any multiplayer game is basically handing a supreme achievement to grief players.
The only RPG I have played with perma-death was a game called Angband or Moria. As a student I used to play it on our universities VAX/VMS mainframe along with about 20 other people. Once your character was dead it was dead and went into the hall of fame for the game. Of course this was many years ago and the graphics were extremely primative but the game could be played for days on end and those who played it back then loved it depite the perma-death.
Back to the article, I got the impression that the guy wansn't really that up to date with current MMORPGs. For example SWG has Jedi perma-death once you die a couple of times (ok it's really a character reset but amounts to the same thing), SWG also has a good set of non-combat skills and players can (and have) set up bars, cantinas, shops etc.
Personally I am ok with perma-death in the SWG sense, reaching the top eschelons of Jedi will be the pinnacle of a players achievement in the game which only a few should attain plus you still have you main character to play with which will never perma-death. |
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Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:17 pm |
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Kiff
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 257
Location: Indiana |
Good article. I like those ideas and I would play a game with perma death. I've purposly deleted many of my higher level characters just so I couldn't play them anymore and was forced to start over. Thats where I find most of the fun anyway. But thats just me. Perma death is fine be me, but what about lessening that blow a little by making so many items on your character family heirlooms. Where when you die that few designated peices will be put in a family safe where any of your toon might access them. That way you lose your good character but don't lose the items you fought so hard for. I also like his idea of paper and newspapers and that would open up other players putting ad's in those newspapers for employment. Nick steals 100g from Guidry the next day Guidry posts in the newspaper: Wanted - Assassin and soon after that you see in the newspapers posted by Nick: Wanted - Elite Guard haha. I really like MMO's but the article is correct...most of these games would be nothing without the players and even with the players some of these games still are dead. Turn Gothic II into an MMO...where the NPC's are so active it's fun just to document their daily activites. |
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Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:17 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
| Re: Anyone who seriously advocates permadeath in an MMORPG.. |
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormwaltz
Anyone who seriously advocates permadeath in an MMORPG is not worth listening to. I can't think of a single RPG in which there has been permadeath. If you don't believe me, remember your saved games. Further, permadeath in any multiplayer game is basically handing a supreme achievement to grief players.
I'm sorry, but everyone is worth listening to. And although you might not agree (I don't entirely agree with him either), he does bring some good points to the table. The matter of fact is that mmorpgs do in fact lack any sense of consequence. Although, like you, I'm not an advocate of permadeath, I do think that there should be ways to make death much more meaningful in mmorpgs.
You can't compare it with a single-player game because they have a consequence: you have to load your saved game and lose any progress that you had done since the last time you saved. I know it doesn't mean much, but currently death in most mmorpgs doesn't even have that little weight to it because you lose next to no progress through death, or so little that it doesn't make much of a difference in the end.
In my opinion, the system that Realms of Torment is planning to implement regarding death and the whole Bloodline system is the most promising out there: a nice compromise between perma-death and player-friendliness.
_________________
=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Wed Jan 21, 2004 6:48 pm |
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Guest
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Ekim, have you read that article? The author wants perma death coupled with PvP-focus and player justice. To me, that sounds like he really doesn't know what he's talking about and hence not worth listening to.
--dyvvu |
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Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:47 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
Yes, I read his article  I didn't say I agree, but it's still worth listening to. Know why? Because there's a significant portion of players that want what he does, for various reasons. And because although he's very radical in what he proposes, he's also got a point. I don't agree with him, but he still brings up some good ideas when you take them individually.
I think he does know what he's talking about, only he's got some radical opinions about what makes a good mmorpg. To some, Shadowbane (on paper) is the definition of what a good mmorpg should be, which goes a little beyond my own comprehension. But you have to accept that there are people with radical ideas that clash with your own out there. And dismissing their opinion doesn't help the genre any.
If someone said that the genre is perfectly fine the way it is I could say that would not be worth listening to. But at least he suggests some changes, as radical as these may be.
_________________
=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:42 pm |
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Stormwaltz
Village Dweller
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 15
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Guest: You're right, I forgot about Moria, Angband, Nethack, et al. Mea culpa, and thanks.
Ekim: The sad truth is, not everyone is worth listening to. Devs have a finite amount of attention, and there's a lot of "signal to noise" in MMP feedback. Everyone has an opinion. Not everyone who posts has the analytical skill to identify the real problems, an awareness of their own biases, a reasonably objective perspective on the larger impact of the actions they condone, and an ability to articulate all the preceding into useful feedback.
Sure, permadeath lends consequence. I'm all about consequences, but those who would design games must realize that their decisions have consequences as well. The author has glossed over the issue of grief. The consequence of having permadeath in an MMP is that it gives griefers a goal. Grief should never be rewarded. If he had attempted to articulate a solution to the grief issue - even a bad solution - he wouldn't have quickly been relegated to "noise" in my mind. He's made the blanket assertion that MMP needs consequences (I agree), and permadeath is the best consequence. Well, permadeath may be the most obvious solution, but without eliminating grief play, it surely ain't the best.
Ideas are a dime a dozen. Developed and workable ideas are worth their weight in gold. As far as I can tell, this is a guy given the bully pulpit by Gamespot to air a bunch of dime ideas I've heard before. I'm not impressed. I've read articles and posts MMP players who've done better with this issue. Heck, many folks at Waterthread.org could think circles around this.
_________________
Former Dev: Asheron's Call, AC:DM, AC2
Current Dev: Dragon Age |
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Thu Jan 22, 2004 12:06 am |
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Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormwaltz
Well, permadeath may be the most obvious solution, but without eliminating grief play, it surely ain't the best.
Easy - just keep the player/GM ratio at around 10/1 and you're all set - that's the way the die-hard RP NWN PWs with permadeath do it ;P. |
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Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:11 am |
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Drumgor
Village Dweller
Joined: 31 Dec 2003
Posts: 4
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quote:
The sad truth is, not everyone is worth listening to.Devs have a finite amount of attention
True, but really who can choose what a dev should listen to? The only thing we can do is make our ideas available just in case something might interest them. What might seem worthless whining to one man can be valuable to another. After all, there are already small companies that are trying to implement perma-death to their games. Maybe just more "Dawn"s but the playerbase that is willing to play such a game is large enough and increasing.
Sure, I don't have numbers to show and indeed it might be that us, the permadeath fanbois, are just too vocal and loud. But we do exist and the case might be that we do have the numbers to support a game.
Oh another RPG (not MMO) that does have perma-death is Diablo. You might be interested to know that after patch 1.10, hardcore characters are almost 50% of the population in the most populated channels in Bnet (at least that's what I have realised by visiting german and french channels in the Europe server during Euro peak-time, same goes for my country's channel too). |
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Thu Jan 22, 2004 9:43 pm |
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Stormwaltz
Village Dweller
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 15
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quote:
True, but really who can choose what a dev should listen to?
Well, as a dev speaking only for himself, the best way to get into my killfile (aside from swearing at me) is to pound the table and assert "it should be this way!" while displaying an obvious lack of thinking the issue through. This particular article set me off because it's published on a major gaming website. As I said, that puts the author in the bully pulpit. IMO, if he's earned that position, he should have something to contribute. That article struck me as a slew of "wouldn't it be cool if," and again, ideas are a dime a dozen.
I'm not opposed to permadeath in concept, BTW. I just have to recognize the serious grief issue, which has lead me to conclude that there are better means to achieve consequence for the majority of gamers. If MMPs provide an option make characters on a permadeath server, that's fine by me. I'm all for gameplay options.
I think permadeath is going to go down the same road as PvP... and after seven years, we still haven't sold the the casual MMP gamers on PvP+ worlds.
quote:
Oh another RPG (not MMO) that does have perma-death is Diablo.
Granted. Personally, though, I've never considered Diablo an RPG. To me it's always felt more like a super-cool version of the arcade game Gauntlet. ^_^
_________________
Former Dev: Asheron's Call, AC:DM, AC2
Current Dev: Dragon Age |
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Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:33 am |
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shadowenz
Guest
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I agree with stormwaltz, clearly the author of the article didnt clearly think through the article. In terms of solutions, (except maybe that paper idea,) the solutions I feel, mainly are like what stormwaltz said, "wouldnt it be great" I could make a long post and explain why on each if you guys want.
I agree, mmorpg's have been remarkably bland as of late. I am finding quicker, and quicker, the more differnt new mmorpgs I play is, wow, this is work! Not fun, but work! And the rewards, are small. I could spend this time on a 2nd job and make more money instead, (better reward imho.)
Listening to user's imput on games is admirable... but in my opinion.. if taken to heart...stupid. I feel the truth is, MANY fans dont really know what they want. They say one thing, want that certain thing. But if actually implemented, one way or another they dislike it, (usually the consequences of that change.) I could make numerous examples on a differnt post if wished, but would like to keep this one short so maybe folks read it.
I think the true problem really is, mmorpg's more then other genere's are released un-finished, I think we can all agree on that. Content is what makes a game intresting, and the mmorpgs tend to lack this. Instead they worry about graphics, making deadlines, and what the "confused gamers" want.
My own personal dime a dozen idea? Have an Item system of diablo 2 in an mmorpg. Throw in 3d graphics for those items (to make them look diverse), and good crafting system. I think no other rpg has kill and reward system down as good as diablo 2 does... I would be happy to hear why this idea wouldnt work. (other then it be alot of work) |
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Sat Jan 24, 2004 2:30 am |
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Guest
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Just noticed Stormwaltz signature stating he is a dev for AC2.
Cant think of a better example then AC2, Beautiful graphics, lots of great ideas on paper, addressed lots of issues with mmorpgs. Yet the game struggles to get/maintain users.
I think the reason is simple in AC2's case. To fast/easy to beat for an mmorpg, (for hardcore players anyhow) and lack of content. Not the issues the gamespot article brings up. I think that author should instead scream for content. Not the ideas of his, that for the most part, wouldnt really work.
I think many mmorpgs mask lack of content, with tremendous leveling mills, long difficult...uninspired...flat out stupid... annoying... quest's (did i tell you i hate most mmorpgs quest's yet?) Luckily "instanced" quest's should help with that issue... (ofcourse they can easily screw that up too... look no further then AO's quest system.
It should be the other way around... |
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Sat Jan 24, 2004 3:06 am |
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Stormwaltz
Village Dweller
Joined: 15 Dec 2003
Posts: 15
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quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
Just noticed Stormwaltz signature stating he is a dev for AC2.
Just to clarify, I was a dev for AC2, but I left Turbine before the game shipped. All I really did was crank out far too many dungeons in far too little time.
I agree with you that content is important. I think there's an unstated schism in MMP design houses right now. Everyone regards their project as either a "world" (SWG, UO) or a "game" (WoW, UXO), and there seems to be no middle ground. I think that's a mistake. The "game" people are correct in believing that players should not have to go hunting for fun - enjoyable content should be something you trip over. The "world" people are correct in asserting that the long term draw of an MMP lies in the society that the players build within it. (The author of the article strikes me as a member of the "world" faction.)
I long for the day when someone manages to ship a title that combines the best aspects of "game" and "world." Short-term, inconsequential fun and long-term meaningful impact meets everyone's needs. And as long as I'm dreaming, I'd like a flying magic cookie pony. 
_________________
Former Dev: Asheron's Call, AC:DM, AC2
Current Dev: Dragon Age |
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Sat Jan 24, 2004 11:02 am |
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