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TheLonePaladin
Mighty Warrior
Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 1808
Location: San Francisco, CA |
hmmmmmm.........
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if two men met in a field, one of them equipped with a greatsword the other equipped with a crossbow, who would win? if two armies met in a field, one armed with greatswords, the other armed with crossbows, who would win?
if a man with a greatsword and a man with a crossbow met two men armed with greatswords, who would win? if an army of 1000 men with greatswords met an army of 500 men with greatswords and 500 men with crossbows in a field, who would win?
thats how one can judge it fairly.
and look at vegeta against cell. he fights with honor, by himself, relying only on his own skill. even when the tables are turned, he doesn't accept any help. honorable. lookit him against buu. he fights him all the way to the end, and nukes himself to save the earth. honorable. if given the option, i think he'd take the greatsword rather than the crossbow.
so  on you 
_________________
=Follower of Righteousness=
"Though the gates that stand between the mortal world and the immortal Realm of Chaos are now closed to me, still I would rather die having glimpsed eternity than never to have stirred the cold furrow of mortal life.
I embrace death without regret as I embraced life without fear." |
Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:21 am |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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quote:
Originally posted by TheLonePaladin
if two men met in a field, one of them equipped with a greatsword the other equipped with a crossbow, who would win? if two armies met in a field, one armed with greatswords, the other armed with crossbows, who would win?
if a man with a greatsword and a man with a crossbow met two men armed with greatswords, who would win? if an army of 1000 men with greatswords met an army of 500 men with greatswords and 500 men with crossbows in a field, who would win?
thats how one can judge it fairly.
and look at vegeta against cell. he fights with honor, by himself, relying only on his own skill. even when the tables are turned, he doesn't accept any help. honorable. lookit him against buu. he fights him all the way to the end, and nukes himself to save the earth. honorable. if given the option, i think he'd take the greatsword rather than the crossbow.
so on you
Crossbow. Proven fact. That's why it was developed... to kill heavily armored knights.
Unless the guys with greatswords start at melee distance... which would be very foolish of the guys with crossbows to allow, as it negates the use of the weapon.
And Vegeta's battle against Cell isn't honorable. It's pure pride.
Vegeta's pride allowed the androids to wake up, not a sense of fair play. Vegeta's pride allows Cell to absorb them. His redeeming moment comes in the final battle with Cell where he overcomes his fear and attacks, providing the opening Gohan needs.
For all his pride, how often does Vegeta win? Goku beats him because he works as part of a team, knows his limits, and works around them.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:29 am |
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Nazgul
Head Merchant
Joined: 02 May 2002
Posts: 56
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Now if you ask me, i think the guy in thr into movie had it all together. Use a bow at first, while there is distance between you, and be ready with a sword when he nears. Thats not cowardice, thats playing it smart. Besides, what does honor get you when your dead? a prettier grave? Woopie! The whole point of war was not for honour, it was to gain land, or get revenge. If you can defeat the enemy with less losses, wouldnt that make sense to use a bow? That way you have more men to keep invading. And living in your kingdom.
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Thu Jul 11, 2002 5:10 am |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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And that's exactly how I play a fighter. Ranged then melee.
With a rogue, though, I see no reason to put myself in mortal danger by entering melee. Sneak attack works within 30 feet... so I'll stay back and let the professional damage sponges... er... fighters... do what they do best.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Thu Jul 11, 2002 6:27 am |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
@ TheLonePaladin - Look up the battles of Agincourt, Crecy, and Potiers (sp?). In all three cases vastly outnumbered English armies took out the best armored knights the French could field. It wasn't even close.
The long bow ruled the battle fields of Western Europe... but the English were too busy killing themselves off to use it as an effective weapon of conquest (plus other conisderations). By the time the Brits had gotten their act together at home the musket was in mass use. Being much cheaper to train a musket weilding guy than than a longbowman the time for the long bow was over.
I think you are falling for a D&D trick. To make RPGs more "fun" characters are given insane amounts of hit points relative to the damage a weapon does. A long bow arrow or cross bow bolt does not stick out of a body - it goes through it. The longbows fired at Agincourt would go through the armor of the knights leg, out the back of the leg, through the 1"of hard wood saddle and kill the horse the knight was riding. d8 damage? I beg to differ. If the arrow hits the head or torso the victim is dead, either leg and the victim is imobilized (maybe dead if one of the big arteries is hit). The only hits that MIGHT allow further action is a grazing blow, or a hit to an arm.
Of course the trick to using the bow is to get an enemy *dumb* enough to cross open terrain that funnels his approach so you can get a good number of shots in
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Edited:
PS - EverythingXen has the right idea, don't use sword, bow or gun, hire some other poor slob  to use it for you 
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=Just plain clueless= |
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Thu Jul 11, 2002 1:18 pm |
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TheLonePaladin
Mighty Warrior
Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 1808
Location: San Francisco, CA |
you guyz tricked me into defending a point that wasn't my own...or something. it doesn't matter who wins. it's all about the honor.
@nazzy honor is everything. it's a matter of principle. obviously your views are different from mine. (which is: it is better to die with honor than live in cowardice.)
@xenny, it wasn't pride. it was honor. goku's a loser. i mean he gets offered the chance to drop a name that means rice, and take one that has an edge, and what does he do? he keeps his sticky rice name! wtf is up with that?
in any event, nappa is in a losing battle right? he's about to die in shame, right? so vegeta does the honorable thing and kills him off to let him die with some dignity. in all the examples you gave, one could interpret it as vegeta acting like a stuck up prince, or one could interpret it as vegeta acting like an honorable warrior. (obviously my choice.)
so you think what you want, i'll think what i want, and we'll both laugh behind the other's back for being such an idiot. how's that sound? 
_________________
=Follower of Righteousness=
"Though the gates that stand between the mortal world and the immortal Realm of Chaos are now closed to me, still I would rather die having glimpsed eternity than never to have stirred the cold furrow of mortal life.
I embrace death without regret as I embraced life without fear." |
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 5:29 am |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Vegeta betrayed Nappa and killed him for being 'weak'. He also didn't want to share the wish for immortality. You can call it honor if you want... but that's a pretty skewed notion of honor (greed, selfishness, betrayal).
As for names... oh please. Drop his name for something edgier... what, like Vegeta, which means vegtable?
I'm not going to laugh behind your back. What's the point?I can keep defending my points all year with ease. I'm waiting for a logical explanation of such sweeping statements as honor is everything.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 3:29 pm |
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TheLonePaladin
Mighty Warrior
Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 1808
Location: San Francisco, CA |
i don't think it was betrayal, selfishness or anything like that. i think it was honor. the guy was bein whooped by a low class warrior, and he's supposed to be the second strongest in all the race? if i was him, i'd want a mercy killing too. (assuming i was a saiyan and all)
"kakarot" is an edgy name. so is "vegeta". you just have to pretend that in the original saiyan language they mean "great warrior" and "fighter's valor" or something.
in any event, a logical explanation? since when does a point of view have to be logical? if you can't understand my faith in God, how are you supposed to understand my principles on anything else?
*snickers behind xen's back*
_________________
=Follower of Righteousness=
"Though the gates that stand between the mortal world and the immortal Realm of Chaos are now closed to me, still I would rather die having glimpsed eternity than never to have stirred the cold furrow of mortal life.
I embrace death without regret as I embraced life without fear." |
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 8:02 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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There's a fine line between not understanding and not sharing. I understand your need for a divine being and respect it... but I don't share it.
While I don't 'fight dirty' in computer games if I can help it because there are no consequences for losing, I certainly would use every trick in the book to win in real life. Who would take care of my wife or future children if I died because I gave someone with superior skill an edge over me? I doubt the words 'He died with great honor' are as much of a solace to a shattered family as its made out to be in popular fiction. I know my wife would rather have me alive.
I don't seek out people to fight. I avoid it as much as possible. THe only serious fight I ever got into I didn't circle around letting the fool assess me and my weaknesses (he was more than a foot taller than I was. His reach alone would have won it.). Instead I jumped forward and stomped on his foot as hard as I could. Then I kneed him in the groin. Then punched him in the solar plexus, then kneed him in the throat as he doubled over, then palm struck his nose. Basically, everything my sensai told me not to do in a fight I did.
Once he curled into a 6'4 fetal ball I ran like hell and called the cops.
I knew he carried a knife. If I hadn't incapitated him with 'low blows' he probably would have killed me. And I doubt I deserve to die 'with honor' at the hand of some pimping drug dealing jock.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 8:23 pm |
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TheLonePaladin
Mighty Warrior
Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 1808
Location: San Francisco, CA |
oh sorry i thought we were still talking about CRPGs and RPGs and the like. my bad, you're right. avoid confrontation, when you run into it, incapacitate him, then run. never kill tho. just do what you need to win.
_________________
=Follower of Righteousness=
"Though the gates that stand between the mortal world and the immortal Realm of Chaos are now closed to me, still I would rather die having glimpsed eternity than never to have stirred the cold furrow of mortal life.
I embrace death without regret as I embraced life without fear." |
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 8:34 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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In RPGs my characters often do have a sense of fair play... even my villains. However, the villains are more likely to expect betrayal and have their bases covered. Good guys in the group I play with tend to 'cheat' in duels and such because they're never lawful good... they're always Chaotic Good (As Drizzt said "Where in the Nine Hells did you get the idea I would fight fair?") or Neutral Good (who don't mind getting a little 'dirty' for the greater good).
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 10:30 pm |
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TheLonePaladin
Mighty Warrior
Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 1808
Location: San Francisco, CA |
well there goes my notion that drizzit was an honorable drow...guess they're allllll the same aren't they
_________________
=Follower of Righteousness=
"Though the gates that stand between the mortal world and the immortal Realm of Chaos are now closed to me, still I would rather die having glimpsed eternity than never to have stirred the cold furrow of mortal life.
I embrace death without regret as I embraced life without fear." |
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 3:13 am |
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