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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
I think most CRPG developers will tell you that the proportion of time and money devoted to graphics is far higher than it used to be. The increase in that slice of the "resource pie" has to be taken from something else, and I feel that gameplay has given up something.
I look thru my games and can't help but notice that there really aren't any newer ones (other than Wiz8, which was an old school throw-back) that I say "That was INCREDIBLY FUN to play". Games like Wiz8, MM7, XCom, Majesty-- they weren't very pretty, they weren't terribly nonlinear, they didn't have good soundtracks, they weren't what I'd call "deep"...but I just had a blast playing them hour after hour after hour. Closest thing I've had to that in the past 5 years or so (again, excluding Wiz8) would be X2. As much as games have gained, it seems to me they've lost the most important feature of all.
That's what scares me about TES4. MW was beautiful, extremely nonlinear, and had a well-developed world (inhabited by cardboard NPCs, but that's a different gripe), yet it just wasn't super fun when the day was over. I'm not certain what the missing magic ingredient was, but I hope they can find it. MW had so many things going for it that it would be a shame if Bethesda missed the target again.
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Sat Sep 18, 2004 6:23 pm |
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cfmdobbie
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 1859
Location: London, England |
I guess that the only thing that worries me about Oblivion is Bethesda going too "mainstream" on it. In the past they have been a company who weren't afraid to innovate, opting for a skills-based levelling system when everyone else was focusing on experience, providing a game so open ended that many Daggerfall players (myself included) never felt the slightest urge to pursue the main quest, etc. I fear that with success comes endless repetition of the same formula, with minor graphical improvements to keep things looking up-to-date.
Too many genres are disappearing, too many genres are converging on a single theme. That's not what I want out of my games!
After id singlehandedly made the FPS genre popular, an entire decade of game design was put into out-Dooming Doom, and arguably no one came close. With Quake came a standardised set of weapons, and almost every FPS since then has looked and played pretty much the same. Ask the average player to name an FPS that doesn't contain rocket launchers or grenades, and they'll most likely look stumped. FPS' have converged so much that I see no point in buying anything other than the fringe games - only if there's a twist might it be worth playing.
Will Oblivion distance itself from the crowd? Or will it be just another hack-and-slash?
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Sun Sep 19, 2004 2:38 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
OMG!, it's so gloomy and depressing in here!!!. ;_;
Console games
About the "we're concerned that the popularity of console gaming bleeding into control schemes of PC RPGs"; Yes, that's one statement that we often heard since the rise of console gaming popularity. And i do have some concerns regarding it possible negative influences upon the development of PC games including CRPGs. It's clear that the differences in hardware (gamepad vs keyboard) and hardware capability (limited Memory, existence of Hard disk) do effect game design (tight levels in DX 2, lower texture resolution). An optimization (interface, style of gameplay) for multi-platform game also not easy, because if you optimized a game for PS2, doesn't mean it's optimized for PC. Silent Hill 2, 3 and 4 for example are easier to play on console instead of PC. In fact certain optimization in console would bring negative impact when playing the game on another platform.
However, not many PC owners see that this is not one side problem. I saw here and there on game forums, although probably not as often as PC gamers, console players also complaint about poorly ported games from PC, or with some features been strip off.
Traditional RPGs
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
...we're concerned that the popularity of console gaming bleeding into control schemes of PC RPGs may eventually leave us playing ONLY the games of yesteryear.
I'm not sure the advance console gaming would destroys the future of CRPGs. If you refer to traditional CRPGs (turn-based, M&M or Wizardry-like), probably yes, but not solely because of popularity console games. Even without the console factor, PC game will still evolving itself - due to technology advancement, market expansion as i commented in previous post. The image of gamer also changing nowadays, it's no more the period of small group of hardcore guys who enjoying some "geeky stuff". The changes are not only graphical change, but also game design, gameplay and such become different.
Turn-based vs Semi turn-based vs Real-time
I only started playing PC games in early 20, now i'm moving toward mid-30. Firstly i doubt my reflecx is exceptionally good, just above average maybe. Action CRPGs like Blade of Darkness and especially the first Gothic did make me struggle for awhile, and still dislike overall Gothic 2's interface. And when playing UT2004, i'm too lazy to use special moves, and i restarting 10-30 times for some missions in GTA3 - either because i'm too slow or slamming my car into something or falling into river.
Now, i played and liked semi turn-based system in Baldur's Gate. But of course for some it's still too fast - although this didn't make sense to me since you can pause however long and how many times you like, plus more selectable options like pause when see enemy, etc. When play Fallout and TOEE i liked the turn-based system, although TOEE is mediocre because weakness in other aspects. Real-time RPGs like Arx Fatalis, Morrowind, Gothic are very good games to me. But well, whether a game will turn-based or not is huge deal for some peoples.
quote:
Originally posted by cfmdobbie
I guess that the only thing that worries me about Oblivion is Bethesda going too "mainstream" on it.
Yes, Bethesda tries to please PS3, Xbox2 and PC players. It's not easy and potentially risky. They did successfully enter the Xbox market, so the next challenge is PS3 market. Don't forget that console games is not all kiddie game, and not everyhing associated with consoles will be automatically bad.
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Sun Sep 19, 2004 12:27 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
I'm sure you guys exaggerate your lack of capabilities to handle realtime combat games. Certainly not being the youngest my self, I find my self quite capable to play Gothic and Arx and other games like that.
Ofcourse it maybe takes 1-2 hours to get used to the games interface, but I'm not finding any big issue at this point.
Anybody who have played Ultima underworld 1+2, and liked these games, would say that it's realtime first person fighting was very intense, but the most important thing, it had a mood and magic, that is hard to exactly to describe in concrete words.
Maybe we (oldtimers) are getting tired of playing CRPG's, and we can't find ourself getting immersed in the CRPG's any more, but then a game like Wizardry 8 turns up, and many of us felt that we still have a real desire to play CRPG's.
Personally I was very pleased playing Gothic 1+2 and Arx, those modern games did also tell me that not all hope is lost for me yet.
And yes Morrowind had many promissing features I like, but somehow It turned me off in the long run, like someone mentioned in a previous post, I just didn't care about the plots after awhile, and the exploring was somehow without interest.
A very good game, is for me a game that I would pay full price for again if they just changes the story/gameworld. Even games like Wizardry 8 and Might & Magic VII, with very dated graphic engines. I wouldn't mind if they used the same engine, if they just could send out another story/gameworld once every year I would be thrilled.
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:11 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
We are competing to see which one has more serious case of arthristis. ^_^
More on topic, i'm happy that Bethesda actually trying to improves many things demanded by fans. The features listed in article will mostly in final game (already 2 years in development, all basics stuff and main features should be in solid stage, and that's why the game announcement). In next 1-2 years we probably see few minor features added. Most my personal complaints on Morrowind pretty much all under attention in Oblivion; Most gripes (from my own post 2 years ago):
quote:
Personally, i think Bethesda has accomplished the objectives of detailed and immersive world IN SOME/CERTAIN DEGREE. In term of geographical/physical game world, yes, it's definitely huge, detail and immersive. The implementation of first person perspective is certainly helping the immersion factor, not to mention the realistic weather system. Compare to recent CRPGs, few could challenge it. NWN?, yes, the graphic is actually quite good - but immersion factor rather pale because it use the isometric camera angle (some gamer even complained about enemies that can't be seen on screen but is attacking his character). Dungeon Siege?, i have to admit that the 3D graphic is detail and nice looking, if not on par with MW. However, the almost same camera angle and endless mouse clicking without much story quickly take away the immersion factor. To me, the nearest challenge to MW should be Gothic - released last year. Well, compare to Mw, Gothic don't have gorgeous weather system, neither huge nor detailed physical game world. But what Gothic lacking in graphic immersiveness is compensated with immersive story, convincing characters A.I and interaction, and realistic lives of NPCs. In MW we have to admit that there's no day & night different of NPCs activities, they tend to be static and boring. There's some other complain on MW's weakness - somehow loose or unfocused main story, and quite many quest that ask you "go & bring me this or that" until at certain points you felt rather annoyed or irritated. But i also sense that this is unavoidable or a dilemma in game design: first, with huge game world and more than 3000 NPCs, the task to script each one as a unique NPCs is simply enormous task and impractical to do; second, with open ended world and many subplot (stories) or diversion, it's only natural that we difficult to get impression from main story or appear to be unfocused; third, with huge game world plus huge amount of quest, it become a huge burden to design a interesting or a complex quests, and thus at the end we got many "go & bring me this or that."
As on other goals such as flexible to role-play character and and let you do whatever you want, it seem Bethesda have a most admirable achievements. For example we play as mage, we also can get a thieving skills as long as we make an attempt to learn its. And surely you have lots of quest, maybe even too many to finish them all, thus you always have chance to choose which quest you want to do. You could even create your own quest; e.g discover the history and background of Vampire in Vvarldenfell or Morrowind, search for information about The Six House, collect all unique weapons available in Morrowind, etc.
P.S - Although MW's main objective is to create a open ended world, there's another important aspect in CRPGs but somehow Bethesda unable to implement it in more interesting ways - COMBAT. Probably this depend on on individual preference, but personally i found the combat is rather "shallow" and too repetitive with same combat moves.
IMO most quest available in MW is boring & too simple because of several things: first, lack of interesting story or subplot accompany the quest. I had played Some exciting CRPGs with in the past with exciting quest such Planescape Torment and Anachronox. Yes, in MW we got tons quest, but that's quantity - not quality; mostly the quest come with barebones story, for example go to collect a debt, go kill someone, or go to steal something. I remember when joined the Thieves Guild, i was asked to steal a diamond, bring it back, and that it's, nothing more, no interesting story.
second, there's not much surprise elements in quest. i remember when playing Gothic, there is one time i was asked to go outside the castle (Old Camp) to meet two miners resting near a campfire. There's no hints that it's atcually a trap or deception. When arriving at the campfire, it turned out that the two miner start taunting me for been a fool & i got kicked & killed. I was so pissed with the deception but at the same time i also admiring the cleverness of subplot and felt satisfying with the surprise.
third, most of the quest are short, and nothing to do with other or previous quests even in same guild. IMO several quest inside certain quild could be sewed together with a interesting story, suspense and surprise (related to one & two above). With that, We won't felt each quest are short (give no impression or memorable to player), independent or isolated.
finally, some of the quests tend to requiring you to search high and low in the huge world of MW (vampire's clan quests & several guild quests). Since MW's world are big, and the items or peoples (etc etc) we need to find is quite difficult, we usually end up spend so much time doing boring thing like walking; for example just walking from point A to point B & search carefully. This tend to make traveling really boring, frustrating and annoying. If there are interesting plot or quest twist in the process of doing that particular quest, then, the problems would be solved.
http://www.rpgdot.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11434
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Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:57 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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I am exagerrating my ability to handle real time combat... I merrily played to level 92 necromancer in Diablo 2 on Battlenet, I was undaunted or challenged by space simulators like Freelancer and X2, and I've logged thousands of hours of frantic clicking in Starcraft.
I also made it to the final act of Gothic using only a pickaxe, digger pants, and artifacts. Spells when called to by the plot only.
What I wasn't exaggerating is the time sink... quite often I will have to leave a game to do something. This will only get more pronounced as responsibilities mount. In turn based combat you can get up and go away for a few minutes without having to save and shut the game down. Pause is all well and good.. but I find pausing in the middle of a battle to disrupt the flow when I come back.
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:47 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
Both Dte and Remus highlight what I perceive as the two major shortcomings of MW. The first is the lack of a real gripping story. I played about 100 hours and barely touched the so called central plot. Then my HD melted and I never re-installed the game.
However, by far my biggest gripe with all the Elder Scrolls games, and I've played All of them including Battlespire. is the cardboard, boring, useless, etc, etc, NPC's. Every game, they promise to improve them, and every game they're just as bad. It's why I'm totally depressed at them making FO3. Unless they get hold of someone like a Chris Avellone who in my estimation is an absolute genius at creating memorable NPC's, then they are never going to capture that magic which makes a classic game; one you will still want to return to years after its release. Can you honestly name ONE NPC from an ES game you really care about, or remember well? Sorry, but I can't!! Will I still buy Oblivion? Yes. I'm a sucker for any half decent RPG!! 
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 7:13 am |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
I'm still playing Morrowind/w expansions... even after two years (I'm mostly occupied with interior decoration nowadays). I like the game so much I find myself saying 'I love this land' when wandering the countryside ^_^, so I have my hopes up for Oblivion. Provided they don't make the game *totally* different from its predecessors (as in, a hockey or racing game), chances are I'll like it. As for NPCs... let me see... which NPCs from any ES game did I care about (since I remember a great deal of them)?
As a general rule I like 'bad' guys, so my votes go to Jagar Tharn in Arena, The Underking in Daggerfall, Dram and the King of Worms in Redguard, Imago Storm in Battlespire and Krazzt in Morrowind (mainly because I'm very partial to the Dremora race  ). Irarak was interesting, too, and I really, really liked 'Uncle' Crassius Curio (who might generally be the most memorable NPC of all ES games). My first MW character (a female Imperial diplomat) had the hots for Tienius Delitian from Tribunal while my second DF character, a male Khajiit battlemage (!) was madly in love with Queen Barenziah...  .
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 8:39 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
Why am I not surprised to read that from you Jaz!!
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:42 am |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
Which part didn't surprise you? My affinity for interior decoration, my soft spot for bad guys or the 'being in love with an unresponsive NPC' thing  ?
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:23 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
All of the above!!
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If God said it, then that settles it!
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:49 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
NPCs
I very much agree on the story and NPC aspects. We need more distinguishable and identifiable main character and NPCs: such as the Nameless One and Morte in PS:T, Mud in Gothic, Minsc from BG series. Other non-RPGs also created many memorable characters like April Ryan in The Longest Journey, Garrett in Thief series, Denton brothers and several NPCs in the original Deus Ex.
However TES series is not like focused RPG such as BG. Bethesda always like to build something large with huge amount of everything else: an enormous simulated game world with many NPCs (near 3,000 in Morrowind), voluminuos book or document, lots of quest, loads of guild to joint, tons of item (furnitures, plants, alchemy tools). The good (or bad) news is, they recently seem to shift position (Morrowind already considerably smaller compare to Daggerfall) and in Oblivion they decided to cut the game world (also content?) into smaller piece for more focused gameplay (detail NPCs, etc). This of course for some TES fans is a sell out, dump down in certain degree; they like to have vast area to explore, figure things up themselves (where to go) or creating they own quest - becoming tomb raider and rare weapons collector (It's simulated world after all!).
Story
The main story in Morrowind is average or just above average, and practically all the sub-quests are worse. So far i haven't found many RPGs with very good story. PS:T is the obvious one. Some would say if you want good story - go read novel. I suppose it's valid to some degree, but there's no strong reason why good story shouldn't be part of good RPGs. Most importantly, what make some games and characters so memorable is because of good main story or good story build into that character. And making a RPGs with good story isn't that difficult. The question is how many audience would like that kind of game. As one gamer said in a forum: "OMG!, PS:T has some many text to ready!, i'm tired pressing escape key or clicking mouse just to jump through all the dialogues!". I think the real issue here is he should been playing Dungeon Siege instead of PS:T.
The story in Oblivion: Emperor dying, he gives you a ring, find someone for help and close the gate to Oblivion. It sound like typical hero story and finally good will triumph over evil. Then again how many RPGs has excellent and original story?.
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 12:52 pm |
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Kendrik
Thin Blue Line
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 550
Location: England |
quote:
Originally posted by Jaz
As a general rule I like 'bad' guys, so my votes go to Jagar Tharn in Arena, The Underking in Daggerfall, Dram and the King of Worms in Redguard, Imago Storm in Battlespire and Krazzt in Morrowind (mainly because I'm very partial to the Dremora race ). Irarak was interesting, too, and I really, really liked 'Uncle' Crassius Curio (who might generally be the most memorable NPC of all ES games). My first MW character (a female Imperial diplomat) had the hots for Tienius Delitian from Tribunal while my second DF character, a male Khajiit battlemage (!) was madly in love with Queen Barenziah... .
I find NPC's in the ES games a mixed blessing. Dealing directly with them is often not the most interesting thing about them. Often they are simply quest givers but it is the history of the character and the historical interactions of the characters that really fills them out. Take the Underking or the King of Worms from Daggerfall for instance. Due to the graphics the characters didn't look particually magnificent and the dialog with them was at best OK but because I had heard so much about them from other NPC's and books when I finally met them I felt special. I can't remember which one it was but one of those two was in a dungeon room surrounded by Ancient Vampires and when I entered I felt genuine reverence. I'm aware that the generic NPC's in Morrowind were a bit too generic but once you scratch the surface and start looking into NPC backgrounds that's when the magic happens. Like most things we are limited by our own imaginations.
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 1:50 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
quote:
Originally posted by Kendrik
I find NPC's in the ES games a mixed blessing. Dealing directly with them is often not the most interesting thing about them. (...) I can't remember which one it was but one of those two was in a dungeon room surrounded by Ancient Vampires and when I entered I felt genuine reverence. (...) start looking into NPC backgrounds that's when the magic happens. Like most things we are limited by our own imaginations.
I agree. And the lad you're thinking of was the Underking IIRC.
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 2:26 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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I can't say the NPCs inspire me much. The books are cool, overall, and sometimes a book will make you look twice at an NPC.
I've never felt involved in TES. As usual I kill anything that moves after a certain point with at least one character. Thing was unlike in Fallout, where I occassionally felt bad for putting a submachine gun on burst fire to a child and hitting attack, or even Gothic where I felt enough pity to usually not kill the NPCs (well... unless one bugs me. I executed the entire Old Camp once I was through with them because of Mud and Bullit)... there was nothing to Morrowind (and certainly not Daggerfall, where I leveled entire towns as a werewolf).
Ok, my Dunmer purged the island of the Empire like he promised he would... nobody notices, nobody cares, and all I've successfully done is increase frame rate a little. Ok, my Vampire killed everyone in every town... whatever. Ok, my Paladin lived a life of virtue, never stealing, never fighting except in self defense, nice to everyone... nobody notices or cares beyond the (nice but repetitive) "I've heard a lot about you" series when you walk by.
The NPCs were cardboard cut-outs. They were disguised cardboard because they each had a name which misled you into thinking they each had something to contribute ... but cardboard nonetheless.
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Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:24 pm |
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