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Peter Stauffenberg
Seer of Delphi
Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 436
Location: Oslo, Norway |
| Can a cleric be something else than a healing machine? |
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I'm a NWN player who really enjoys playing good clerics and paladins.  One reason is that I like to create stories for characters who are strong in faith. So I feel I've become quite familiar with divine spells. 
For some reason it seems that people look upon clerics as healing machines. Well they can be that too, but there are some other spells that are can make a big difference.
Many NWN players seem to put too much effort into memorizing healing spells for their clerics and not the other spells. They seem to forget about the cleric ability called spontaneous cast. You don't need to memorize more than 1 healing spell per spell level since you can always convert any other spell of the same level into a healing spell.
I will mention the non-healing spells I usually memorize when I play a cleric.
0 level:
Resistance: +1 to all saving throws for 2 turns is not so bad for a level 0 spell.
1st level:
Bless: +1 attack and +1 damage for all in the party and a pretty good duration.
Protection from alignment: +2 AC and +2 to saving throws for target and an excellent duration.
Remove fear: Pretty important if you expect to encounter creatures with a fear effect. It's no fun having your best fighter flee the fight in terror. 
Sanctuary: This spell is very valuable for a cleric if he/she is expected to heal a lot in tough battles instead of fighting. Duration is short so it should be cast just prior to the start of a battle.
2nd level:
Bull's strength: This buff is very nice since it gives the target 1d4+1 extra strength. It's also very useful when you need to carry heavy equipment out of a dungeon so you can sell them (armor etc.). Duration is excellent. This spell can make a good fighter a great fighter. Especially at lower levels.
Endurance: This buff is great since it gives the target 1d4+1 extra constitution. Duration is excellent. I usually memorize 2 of this spells so I can cast it on the PCs who are most vulnerable like the rogue and the wizard. Giving them on average 2 extra HP per level will be noticed adn they will simply love the cleric. 
Hold person: This spell is one of the best low level attack spells for a cleric. It works best against enemy fighters since the saving throw is against will. Your friends will thank you when a hold person can take out the most dangerous enemy fighter for some vital rounds.
Remove paralysis: Very useful if you expect to fight monsters that can paralyze or enemy spellcasters with hold person.
Resist elements: 20/ damage resistance against all elemental form of damage. That can be very useful when you expect battles with elemental damage. Medium duration.
3rd level:
Clarity: Protects against sleep, confusion, stun and charm and also removes them. Short duration.
Magical circle against alignment: Caster and all nearby allies get +2 AC, +2 saving throws and immunity to mind spells. Excellent duration.
Prayer: Allies get +1 attack, skill and saving throws while enemies receive -1. Short duration.
Resist elements: 30/ damage resistance against all elemental form of damage. That can be very useful when you expect battles with elemental damage. Excellent duration.
4rd level:
Divine power: Gives the cleric +1HP/level. 18 Strength and attack bonus as a fighter. Short duration.
Neutralize poison: No explanation needed.
Restoration: Removes level drains, stat drains etc. Very useful.
5rd level:
Flame strike: 1d6 fire damage per level within area of effect. A very good spell unless you have sorcerers and wizards with fireball instead.
Raise dead: Invaluable unless you have raise dead scrolls. That saves your friend from respawning and losing both gold and XP.
Spell resistance: 12 +1 per caster level. Medium duration.
Different summon creature spells can be useful too if you need a "target" for the enemies, but my experience is that they usually die too quickly to be very useful.
Going into a battle prepared with buffs instead of just rushing in can be the difference between success and failure. If you buff properly you don't need to heal so much because the battle will be over more quickly and your friends will do better.
An alternative to using the cleric only as a healer is to let the cleric cast many buffs and let the fighters rely upon potions. A good thing about potions is that they are rather quick and always work. You never know if the cleric is around to heal you when you need him/her and the spell can be disrupted.
So I usually spend a lot of money on purchasing healing potions. Give every character a lot of cure critical and cure serious and you can take on very tough opposition.
This shows an alternative to just using a cleric as a healing machine. My experience is that buffing your fighters and rely more upon potions work better than having a cleric with a lot of healing spells. The cleric can be hit and the healing be disrupted, the cleric can be paralyzed, scared etc, the cleric can be killed when having to fight near tough monsters.
I also use my cleric to heal minor wounds on my friends with cure minor, cure light etc. It's no need to enter a battle with some damage when you can use the lesser healing spells before the battle and send in the fighters undamaged.
What do you think? Do you also have good experiences with using a cleric for something else than just being a healing machine?
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=Member of The Sports Fans Club=
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)
To err is human, to forgive, divine. - Alexander Pope (1688-1744) |
Wed Apr 09, 2003 8:00 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
I just won the OC with my cleric. With her emphasis on animal magic, I was doing some heavy-duty summoning from the very beginning. I also think you missed one of the better spells. Hammer of the Gods is a great spell. It's one of the few crowd-control spells a cleric gets at lower levels, and the stun effect makes it much easier for the party/henchman/summoned to mop up.
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Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Thu Apr 10, 2003 2:28 am |
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Peter Stauffenberg
Seer of Delphi
Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 436
Location: Oslo, Norway |
quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
I just won the OC with my cleric. With her emphasis on animal magic, I was doing some heavy-duty summoning from the very beginning. I also think you missed one of the better spells. Hammer of the Gods is a great spell. It's one of the few crowd-control spells a cleric gets at lower levels, and the stun effect makes it much easier for the party/henchman/summoned to mop up.
Thanks. I missed the spell Hammer of the Gods. For some reason it's not mentioned in the NWN user manual so I missed it. I guess I confused it with spiritual hammer (old AD&D cleric spell) when I saw the symbol for Hammer of the Gods.
The Hammer of the Gods is a level 4 area of effect spell which can do a lot of damage and stun enemies. Now it will become even more fun to play a cleric. 
_________________
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Member of The Sports Fans Club=
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)
To err is human, to forgive, divine. - Alexander Pope (1688-1744) |
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Thu Apr 10, 2003 6:51 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Stauffenberg
I missed the spell Hammer of the Gods. For some reason it's not mentioned in the NWN user manual so I missed it.
Interesting... You're right about it not being in the manual. Well, not quite- they list it as a 4th level DRUID spell (at least in the English language manual I've got). My cleric usually used all but on of her 4th level slots for this spell.
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Thu Apr 10, 2003 7:27 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
You're certainly right that there's more to the cleric than healing. dteowner and I have both played clerics in our MP game although dte has used a wider range of spells than I did.
Still, the classic healer (and some buffs) can be an integral part of some groups depending on their style and team makeup. |
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Thu Apr 10, 2003 8:11 am |
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Peter Stauffenberg
Seer of Delphi
Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 436
Location: Oslo, Norway |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
You're certainly right that there's more to the cleric than healing. dteowner and I have both played clerics in our MP game although dte has used a wider range of spells than I did.
Still, the classic healer (and some buffs) can be an integral part of some groups depending on their style and team makeup.
I prefer to play paladins and clerics. One of my clerics (Lance Auric) is a cleric of Torm and he is a pseudo paladin.  He wanted to be a paladin all his life, but he lacked certain abilities so he was kindly asked to serve Torm by becoming a cleric instead.
So he fights for good using his longsword, shield and plate armor alongside his paladin friends. With the spell divine power and some buffs he is a very good fighter. And he has some bonuses that the fighters don't, i. e. a lot of nice spells and turn undead. The only major difference between my cleric of Torm and a real fighter is the feats the real fighters get.
I really enjoy playing Lance and I feel he performs very well.
I also play another cleric and she is a more traditional cleric. Ireena Moonglow is a cleric of Lathander and prefers to heal and buff her friends. She uses a morning star or mace when she has to fight. I enjoy playing her a lot too.
My point is that a cleric is a very fun character to play. In the truly good games I play the focus is on roleplay and then it's all up to me, but even the more hack & slash oriented NWN modules are fun with a cleric if you avoid being just the standard healing machine.
The classes I rarely see played in NWN are sorcerers and wizards. I wonder why because they are very popular in face to face D&D. Maybe the modules are so combat heavy that the wizards die too easily? But that's maybe because the fighters forget to protect their spellcasters and charge into combat instead. I feel that shielding the spellcasters is very important for the success of the group. If the wizard ally himself/herself with the cleric and receive an endurance buff before every combat then the odds of surviving is so much better.
_________________
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Member of The Sports Fans Club=
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)
To err is human, to forgive, divine. - Alexander Pope (1688-1744) |
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Thu Apr 10, 2003 9:50 am |
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OhBrandi
The Pun-Slayer
Joined: 04 May 2002
Posts: 1038
Location: Somewhere this side of sanity. |
 Hello Peter, and welcome to the Neverwinter forum of RPGDot.
I cannot comment on clerics, as I've never played one, except to say that after your in-depth analysis of the positive aspects of role-playing one, I find myself starting up NWN again as a cleric.
I usually prefer the chaotic/good pure fighter, or better - one with a few magical tricks up her sleeve. But it would seem that a cleric would fit most of my list for an enjoyable character to play. Thanks for the essay.
And again, welcome. 
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Whenever I feel blue, I start breathing again.
Thanks, JM
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=Neverwinter Nights Co-Moderator= |
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Thu Apr 10, 2003 3:54 pm |
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Peter Stauffenberg
Seer of Delphi
Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 436
Location: Oslo, Norway |
quote:
Originally posted by OhBrandi
Hello Peter, and welcome to the Neverwinter forum of RPGDot.
I cannot comment on clerics, as I've never played one, except to say that after your in-depth analysis of the positive aspects of role-playing one, I find myself starting up NWN again as a cleric.
I usually prefer the chaotic/good pure fighter, or better - one with a few magical tricks up her sleeve. But it would seem that a cleric would fit most of my list for an enjoyable character to play. Thanks for the essay.
And again, welcome.
Thanks OhBrandi for your very nice welcome.  I appreciate that a lot. I'm rather new to RPGDot.com. A friend in a NWN guild I'm a member of in the Bioware forums encouraged me to to visit here and I'm very happy I did. You seem all very nice and like to discuss in a mature way.
I'm glad you enjoyed my contribution and hope you will find playing clerics as much fun as I do. I promise I will contribute a lot more in the future as well and hope someday to play NWN with some of you.
So far I've usually played NWN modules without a DM so I will try to seek games with a DM. I find DM'ed modules even more interesting to play in.
I prefer myself to play lawful good or neutral good characters, but I can play chaotic good as well. I don't like being in a group with evil characters since I like to be a guy.
_________________
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Member of The Sports Fans Club=
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)
To err is human, to forgive, divine. - Alexander Pope (1688-1744) |
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Thu Apr 10, 2003 4:47 pm |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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quote:
Originally posted by Peter Stauffenberg
One reason is that I like to create stories for characters who are strong in faith.
Here’s something I don’t really understand. Why have characters of strong faith? Aren’t people of strong faith in real life usually against having gods in video games for fear they may be heretical? |
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Thu Apr 10, 2003 7:17 pm |
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Peter Stauffenberg
Seer of Delphi
Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 436
Location: Oslo, Norway |
quote:
Originally posted by Roach
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Stauffenberg
One reason is that I like to create stories for characters who are strong in faith.
Here’s something I don’t really understand. Why have characters of strong faith? Aren’t people of strong faith in real life usually against having gods in video games for fear they may be heretical?
I'm not a religious person. I consider myself an agnostic, i. e. that I don't know whether God exists or not and try to postpone the time when I have to make a choice.
But deities do exist in D&D. When I say I like to play characters strong in faith then it's purely for roleplaying reasons. I have always admired paladins since they are holy warriors with a pure heart who fight for good with a divine power to support them. The same also applies to the clerics I play (only good clerics).
This maybe originates from my respect in real life of people who believe. Life is in a way simpler for them since their belief gives them hope and a lot of answers. I don't believe yet so I'm a doubter and have many unanswered questions. I know this is rather complex and it's probably not a good idea to turn this thread into a religious thread.
I guess I like clerics and paladins partly because I admire their purpose and goal in life. They are here to serve and help others and that is a good goal I feel.
_________________
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Member of The Sports Fans Club=
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)
To err is human, to forgive, divine. - Alexander Pope (1688-1744) |
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Thu Apr 10, 2003 8:17 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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That's exactly how I feel about clerics and paladins. I never shade of grey a good cleric or a paladin... faith grants them victory.
It's ironic that I often play characters with absolute faith when I myself have none. Perhaps it's a longing for something spiritual in my life that I will never achieve. I'm far to big a cynic... there will be no pearly gates for me.
Turning this into a religious discussion is a bad idea.
Suffice to say... not all who have faith believe that having a faithful character is heresy... and not all who lack faith think that playing a faithful character is foolish.
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Fri Apr 11, 2003 2:19 pm |
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Peter Stauffenberg
Seer of Delphi
Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 436
Location: Oslo, Norway |
I feel the most important thing is to distinguish between what you do in a game and what you do in real life.
When I play in the Forgotten Realms I'm playing in a fantasy world with dragons, deities, pixies, elves, giants etc. They don't exist on Earth. So I try to imagine how it is to live in this fantasy world when I create my character. So if I in my imagination think I'm e. g. in Silvery Moon then I can also imagine being Ireena Moonglow a female half-elven cleric of Lathander living there.
I decide what she does when I RP her, but her actions are not related at all to my own life and what I would do in real life. She is living in Silvery Moon and serving Alustriel while I live in Oslo, Norway working for a telecom company.
I know some people try to compare your actions in a game with your actions in real life. E. g. I've met players who find it disturbing that I as a male can play female characters and wonder what kind of person I am. I think that is sad because when I play a character I play. I want to have a great time when I play and I don't see why I cannot play a female character well even though I'm a male?
I sometimes play a female paladin of Sune called Catherine Tintagel and she likes to flirt with some of the men she meets without wanting more than that. That is her personality. But it doesn't mean I'm a flirty person, does it?
This is one thing I like a lot when I RP a character. I can be a completely different personality than my own and enjoy doing it.
I've been RPing since the mid 80's and I still remember the discussions we had 10-15 years ago in our newspapers about the bad influence some roleplaying games had on young people. Some people thought that AD&D was bad for young people since it contained undead, demons, devils and other evil creatures. They felt that games like Vampire the Masquerade was even worse. I also remember some made a point that the AD&D deities and demigods book contained the Norse Gods like Thor, Odin, Freya, Balder etc. so they wanted to put restrictions on what we were allowed to play. It took some debating in the newspapers from our organized gaming community to convince people that RPing is harmless and just fantasy. We succeeded and luckily no restrictions were put on our gaming community.
I feel exactly the same about playing a character with faith in a game. It's just harmless fun and has nothing to do about whether I believe in God or not or whether I respect people who believe or not. I do respect people who believe in God for their belief although I'm a doubter myself, but that is an entirely different discussion not suitable to discuss here.
_________________
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Member of The Sports Fans Club=
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)
To err is human, to forgive, divine. - Alexander Pope (1688-1744) |
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Fri Apr 11, 2003 4:42 pm |
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DzD
Unknown
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 7140
Location: Sweden |
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Stauffenberg
I also remember some made a point that the AD&D deities and demigods book contained the Norse Gods like Thor, Odin, Freya, Balder etc. so they wanted to put restrictions on what we were allowed to play.
*Ahem* Don't you mean scandinavian gods?
Anyway, I'm playing a fighter oriented cleric, and trust me, the clerics are powerfull. If a cleric is hasted and fighting, it can both heal teammates, fight monsters that runs around the fighter AND throw some pretty scary spells on any incoming horde of monsters. Their ability to wear a heavy armor is also good in any kind of battle as their ability to hit pretty hard even though it's a spellcaster. And if multiclassed with a fighter, they hit hard enogh to take pretty tough monsters. The cleric's spell called harm and slay living is also very good against a tough against an enemy boss.
So, a cleric is by far the best character in NWN IMHO.
_________________
There once was a youngster, DzD
Whose avatars numbered infinity
But I must admit
His latest, a hit
Cuz the Little One's a mystery to me
Written by - dteowner |
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Fri Apr 11, 2003 5:13 pm |
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Peter Stauffenberg
Seer of Delphi
Joined: 05 Mar 2003
Posts: 436
Location: Oslo, Norway |
quote:
Originally posted by DzD
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Stauffenberg
I also remember some made a point that the AD&D deities and demigods book contained the Norse Gods like Thor, Odin, Freya, Balder etc. so they wanted to put restrictions on what we were allowed to play.
*Ahem* Don't you mean scandinavian gods?
Of course. It's just that in the Deities and Demigods they are mentioned under the chapter Norse mythology. But even the Germans have some of the same Gods as the Scandinavian ones. Wotan = Odin etc.
quote:
Originally posted by DzD
So, a cleric is by far the best character in NWN IMHO.
Exactly. Most spells are really good and you can do a decent job fighting as well. I particularly enjoy casting hold person on a big bad enemy fighter our fighter has a hard time against. Suddenly the enemy is held and our fighter can breathe with relief.
One part of me is happy that not more players have found how fun clerics are because it means I will always have the chance to play one in our groups. But another part of me is happy when I see another person wants to play a cleric because I know he/she will have a fun time. Then I can sign up for playing a fighter or a paladin. They are fun too.
I wonder how you play with rogues and rangers as scouts. If they leave the range for the Talk mode in NWN it means you cannot hear what they say unless they use Party mode or Shout. So the scouts would have to move back to report to the rest of the group.
We had a discussion in our Bioware guild about what to do in such situations. Some meant we should switch to Party mode while the scouts were away so they could both listen to our RPing and tell us what they saw without having to get back to return. They said that it's like what you experience when you RP in a pnp game. People who played the scouts said they thought it was no fun being a scout if you failed to get a hint about some nice RPing in development etc. If the scouts heard that the others RPed while waiting for the scouts it meant the scouts to return and join the RPing.
The others claimed that we should only use Talk, Whisper and Shout modes for in game talking and Party mode only for ooc talking. So they meant the scouts had to move back to report and shouldn't hear anything outside the range of the talk mode. The arguments from both sides had merits so we agreed that it was up to the players of each game to decide the mode they wanted to use for that game. So both modes are used now.
I wonder how you use the different chat modes within NWN? [/quote]
_________________
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions. - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)
To err is human, to forgive, divine. - Alexander Pope (1688-1744) |
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Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:08 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Stauffenberg
I want to have a great time when I play and I don't see why I cannot play a female character well even though I'm a male? (...)
This is one thing I like a lot when I RP a character. I can be a completely different personality than my own and enjoy doing it.(...)
I've been RPing since the mid 80's and I still remember the discussions we had 10-15 years ago in our newspapers about the bad influence some roleplaying games had on young people. Some people thought that AD&D was bad for young people since it contained undead, demons, devils and other evil creatures.
Aaah, another 'oldtimer', I've been playing pen-and-paper RPGs since '82, and I remember the media discussions about RPGs seducing kids to a live of vice and violence. One famous quote was, "Oh yes, role-playing games, that's where people meet to rape and plunder and decapitate each other."
But as you said, in RPGs and in real life people rarely show the same behavior. I have really big troubles playing female characters who are NOT sticky-fingered, no matter what their class or - if a game has alignments - their alignment is... in RPGs it's like a compulsion to pocket every gadget that's not bolted down. But my RL self is everything but thievish. Perhaps in RPGs, we let our id off the chain, who knows? I should thank Fate that I have my unconscious in check or I'd turn into a thieving magpie in no time . I never felt RPG gender swapping to be unnatural, either... it's like unleashing ones animus/anima. My hb's anima must be a bossy little teenage girl, for these manga-type girlies are his most convincing RPG characters, while my RPG characters which are most popular with the other gamers tend to be male, middle-aged and quite anal...
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Jaz |
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Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:57 pm |
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