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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
Check our newsbit on the front page - and let our community know what you think about it...
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
Wed Apr 03, 2002 6:32 am |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
There is another thread with discussion about this in Offtopic forum (name of this topic is -Oh Brother-).
There were several posts with nearly hysterical reactions from players (it were his mental problems, not EQ that coused it, how can someone say that it was EQ?...).
I think that this death shows something that is big problem and could be big problem in our own lifes.
There are things that are more important that PCGames and we should know it and be aware of it everytime (family, friendship...).
And everyone that push PCGames to higher floor in his/her "value system" that it should be, attacks not only his/her mental and physical health, but also people living around him.
Every good human should be responsible for his surrounding (and I do not mean only family, but town, country...) and not only "should be responsible", but also "should feel it and act according it".
And there are things that can force everyone to leave PCGames and everyone should accept it as real possibility and know that it can be necessary one day.
I must say again, there are things that are more important than PCGames and everyone who does not accept it and who does not live according to it, shows that he/she is adicted to PCGames...
_________________
=Moderator of Wizardry 8 forum=
=Member of the Fab Four=
[ This Message was edited by: Danicek on 2002-04-03 00:48 ] |
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Wed Apr 03, 2002 6:42 am |
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ShadowMage
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 03 Apr 2002
Posts: 44
Location: Denmark |
I am a little curious in regard to why he committed suicide.
It isn't stated anywhere - just that he played EverQuest a whee to much. I assume that his reasons for taking his own life are related to EverQuest.
My opinion on the matter is a rather cold one. I generally have a hard time feeling compassion for anyone who snuffs their own life. I see it as a weakness and a easy way to escape problems.
_________________
I am what I want myself to be.
[ This Message was edited by: ShadowMage on 2002-04-03 01:03 ] |
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Wed Apr 03, 2002 7:01 am |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
ShadowMage, allow me to disagree with your opinion. I think it isn't an easy way out - I think it is a hard decision for everyone to take his own life, and I think there must be either mental illness or extreme desperation behind it.
Apart from that, I, too haven't seen any prove why his death is EQ related. The article stated that this boy had serious mental problems in general, and I would attach his suicide to this problem at fist glance. But I certainly don't know.
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Wed Apr 03, 2002 7:16 am |
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Guest
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Well, I do not think that *anybody* commits suicide just because of any game. There had to be something deeper (loneliness, depressions etc.). There are many people who commit suicide without ever playing any computer game... Whom to sue in those cases?
Perhaps it will sound too hard, but I think his mother etc. are just trying to exploit American legal system (as many other do). That councelor Jay Parker is a part of it, his opinions are just a bad joke.
Americans have tendency to sue people for everything:
Have you smoked all your life as a chimney? No problem, in America now you can get millions of dollars out of the big bad tobacco companies which ruined your health...
Yes, tobacco companies are judged as responsible for it, not you (one would say they forced you to smoke with a physical violence).
Is your son Kenny laughted at at school because of the South Park serie? No problem - sue the creators (this really happened - fortunately I think it failed).
Many more examples like that can be found ...
Famous American legal system has one problem - you can sue anybody for anything wanting a really obscene sum of money. Even if you lose you can usually get away without paying the expenses of the one who was sued. So why not to try it?
I remember some nice scenes from a comics "Calvin and Hobbs". In one of them Calvin (small boy) talks with his father about the God (not a serious debate, just some questions). In one of his answers the father tells something like this : "If the God existed, we should initiate class acction law suit against him for how he created the word". In another scene Calvin thinks: "We have no money... Whom could we sue?". These are exaggerations but they express the American attitude to sue anybody for anything... |
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Wed Apr 03, 2002 7:33 am |
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ShadowMage
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 03 Apr 2002
Posts: 44
Location: Denmark |
You are more welcome to disagree. This would be a boring place if you didn't do so.
Now I'm nowhere near an expert. But I consider that taken your own life is result of a weak mind and will. When your "bad" self, actually convince you that living is the best way out - of your misery, despair or whatever the reason are. So you heed to the call, instead of fighting against it.
I have a hard time understanding that there is no other way the committing suicide.
There is always another way. Harder perhaps, but still another way. |
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Wed Apr 03, 2002 8:03 am |
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araczynski
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 03 Apr 2002
Posts: 48
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Well, let me begin by saying that I live in good 'ol Milwaukee, and therefore that makes me an expert on this matter 
I wasn't born in this country and have views which are 'different' from many, but not all, here.
I saw the article in the paper this sunday and my first reaction was to laugh. The above posts say it pretty well...sue for everything and anything is the motto here in the states.
in my opinion the lady should be bi*ch slapped and sent home. her actions are pathetic at best. whether she's doing this out of wanting to blame somebody or just simply a greedy bi*ch, she makes me sick.
its obvious the guy had some problems, if anything she should be blaming herself for perhaps not being a good enough mother to see what was happening to her son. i'm not saying it was her fault, it wasn't, but *perhaps* she could've seen something was wrong.
so bottom line, while she has the legal right to sue, this is one case where I hope the 'system'(sony/whoever) squashes her like the cochroach she is.
sometimes i miss communism...
[ This Message was edited by: araczynski on 2002-04-03 02:11 ] |
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Wed Apr 03, 2002 8:08 am |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
Yes, there was nothing in that article that proves connection between EQ and death, but when someone playes games 12 hours a day (if it is true), then everything in his life is connected with it.
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Wed Apr 03, 2002 8:13 am |
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Guest
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To ShadowMage:
I would not dare to say that the suicide is a sign of weakness. It is very difficult to understand problems of someone else if you do not have it.
IMHO everybody has ultimately right to decide about giving up his/her own life (I do not talk here about people who use suicide just as a method to get attention) and I have no right to judge him/her because of that.
There is also one danger in your opinion - if a possible candidate thinks it is a weakness, he will not give it up, but he will be ashamed instead and will not look for possible medical help which could save him/her.
I have read opinion of one doctor that the attitude "be strong, get over it by yourself" costed already quite a few lives of people who could otherwise be saved. |
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Wed Apr 03, 2002 8:24 am |
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Doom
Village Dweller
Joined: 03 Apr 2002
Posts: 2
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Hmm, well the american legal system surely produces some strange results. On the onther hand what ISN'T strange in the USA seen from a European standpoint. There are far too many contradictions to even start naming some.
In this case I fully agree with those who accuse the mother. You simply cannot watch your son play 12 hrs. a day knowing he's epileptic and then blame some Entertainment Company. This is clearly an attempt to make some easy cash out of your own sons death, which in my eyes is disgusting.
Also the case shows some analogies to Computer Games being made responsible for violent behavior. Computer games are just too well fitted for such purposes and you can blame them for nearly everything. It's just too easy.
Doom |
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Wed Apr 03, 2002 8:49 am |
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Zan
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 44
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First of all,its too bad the kid is dead.This is not the games fault or anyones fault,but the kids.The game never killed the kid.The kid killed himself.This kid was severely disturbed and depressed.So there are 400,000 people who play this game and one disturbed kid kills himself.Give your head a shake lady.The mother was more to blame than anyone,if blame should be given at all.She was right there to help him.So now she wants to screw society for whatever she can get.I hope it costs her more than she gets out of it.So lets put those warning labels on all of the games.
WARNING
This game maybe fun and highly addictive.
I sure the heck hope so. |
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Wed Apr 03, 2002 10:00 am |
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Maggot
Magister of the Light
Joined: 17 Jul 2001
Posts: 392
Location: Reykjavik, Iceland |
I think the mother has the wrong of it, but I however understand that she may be lashing out as a result of grief. It's extremely hard to argue that a product convinces someone to take their own life, I believe the guy made his own decision. Whether playing Everquest influenced that decision, is in my opinion irrelevant.
If you are in a right (or shall I say wrong) frame of mind, anything can influence your decision to commit suicide.
There are plenty of Everquest players that don't commit suicide. 1 in 200000+ people does not a trend make. The suicide rate in Iceland is higher than that.
I think the mother should be ashamed of herself for attempting to exploit her son's death in this manner. |
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Wed Apr 03, 2002 10:07 am |
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Many people which didn't play the high level game of Everquest regularly for more than 2 years will just hardly be able to understand the problem behind this. This wasn't the first Everquest suicide case and won't be the last one. And no, it's not just happening to epileptic people.
I'd like to give an insight of how addictive Everquest can be. This doesn't applies to a few people but to the majority of high level Everquest gamers.
I'm an old MMORPGer myself and was guildleader of an "ubber"(top) guild in Everquest for several years. While my guild gave the members alot of freedom I know that some of the top amd most famous guilds terrorize their members, forcing them to log in, to leave work, to give the game the priority over everything else and this includes their family as well. If a dragon spawned you MUST attend to the raid. Fail 3 times and your banished from the guild or demoted to a lesser guildmember, won't get the "phat lewt" and won't keep up with your competition. If the dragon spawns at 3 am the whole guild has to be there before someone else gets him and if they have to stay up all night and not get sleep before work. This might sound silly to most which read this(and I don't say that it isn't) but as said, to fully understand you would need to experience the high level game of Everquest.
In order to keep up with the high level game of Everquest playing 4 hours a day isn't enough. The high level game is constructed that it is impossible to do anything within 4 hours of gameplay. It rather starts at 7-10 hours. And as you might see, this means being forced to play several times a week until 1 or 2 am, maybe even longer if the raid failed and you need to get back to your corpse.
Over the years I saw people divorceing, students giving up their studies and knew one person which suicided because he lost everything because of his addiction to the game(and I know of other suicide cases as well). It wasn't someone whom you could have called mentally ill before. One day he discovered Everquest and got drawn into it until he lost his job, run out of money and suddenly suicided.
When Everquest came out no one knew that it would end the way it is now, it seemed like a fantastic new world to discover without any risks.
It's very sad and I think that just giving out a warning on the EQ box that the game might be highly addictive to certain people would help. Some are aware of their addictiveness to roleplaying games and might have choosed something else if they would have known how extreme Everquest truely is. Maybe these aren't the suicidal people anyway but it would save some alot of troubles.
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Wed Apr 03, 2002 11:53 am |
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Motoki
Head Merchant
Joined: 10 Mar 2002
Posts: 52
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First off, yes there are a lot of silly lawsuits here (America) I will not deny that. But the tabacco company lawsuit centered around the fact that those companies knew cigarettes caused cancer years before that become general public knowledge and they were forced to put warning labels on them. They sat on that knowledge and kept it secret for years and that, I believe, was the main issue. If people are informed of the hazards and still smoke (and many for some crazy reason do, though we Americans seem to be doing it less so these days than much of the rest of the world) that is one thing, but to not know what you are dealing with is another entirely. Also it was revealed when someone in the cigarette companies told on them that they purpose mix the tobacco, test it, and add it in such a way that they make it addicting so people will keep buying them. I'm not talking about addicting like shopping or food or EQ, I'm talking about chemically addicting. And of course all the while they would deny that cigarettes were chemically addicting publicly *rolls eyes* So anyway that one I think does have some basis.
As for EQ, well the article implies the mother wanted some info from them that they refused to provide. I take it she wanted logs of his character or something? Personally I think it would be me reasonable if she sued them merely for access to that information. *shrug*
I know those games can be addicting, Hell I should join UO Anonymous because I used to be addicted to that game! I wouldn't say these games push anyone to suicide but it does tend to isolate people and make one anti-social. Socializing in these online worlds is a poor substitute for socialising in the real world as many of the people on these games are very immature, ignorant and don't know how to behave!  |
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Wed Apr 03, 2002 12:08 pm |
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Guest
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"The game never killed the kid.The kid killed himself.This kid was severely disturbed and depressed."
I'm sorry to take you out but I'd like to show this as a typical opinion of an 100% addicted Everquest gamer.(even if you aren't)
The addiction goes as far that the gamer protects by all manners the game. Sony in example raised the monthly price of Everquest recently and gamers say that it is fair move even if the intake of Everquest is belived to be around 4.3 Million USD gross per month. They do it because they know that all addicted people will keep playing. The ignorance of Sony Online goes as far that the CEO once stated in an interview "we don't care about our customers, all we want to know is if they have a valid credit card". Most CEO think this, but the CEO of SOE proves the truth behind this sentence in a very obvious way. The addicts don't care anyway.
In early days of Everquest they discovered how addictive some gameplay elements are and built those up not careing about the game at all. I guess that the true top development team is behind their Star Wars Galaxies project. For Everquest they got a small cheaper team throwing bones sometimes to the addicts to keep them happy.
"wow. I'm getting critical heal now. I love the latest expansion. I can heal twice as many hit points sometimes".
Thats what an addicted EQ Gamer told me. Read this sentence carefully and maybe you will understand what I meant.
As a note I don't blame the addicted people at all, as stated I used to play alot of roleplaying games and was addicted as well. Everquest was a wonderful world where I had my friends around me all the time, I met many of my guildmembers in real life whose are very nice people and we became good friends, helping each other when someone needs it. It shows how far the game actually goes and how much it affects the life of an addict. I fully understand how this could take a different direction, as in the suicide case.
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Wed Apr 03, 2002 12:28 pm |
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