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Chicknstu
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 15 Jun 2003
Posts: 32
Location: Dundee, Scotland |
As a game designer/ writer, i have often pondered this question, and the conclusion i have come to is...... it's roleplaying elements. All the best games have some degree of character progression, even if they aren't roleplaying games (Sims / GTA:Vice City case in point) Both these games see your character beginning from lowly, hard up backgrounds, and eventually climbing up the ladder of power.
The fact is that it isn't difficult to write some kind of progression into any genre you like, and every game which i am responsible for so far have had some form of this.
Another thing which garuntees to put a particular game head and shoulders above the rest is non-linearity, but most games don't have this feature. These titles are fundimentally flawed in their design, giving unrealistic game progression. I personally can't stand the Final Fantasy series for this reason. What's the point in developing your character when the bad guys increase in power at a proportional rate? The game remains the same, just the numbers get bigger. This can also lead to, as happened to me in dungeon seige, getting to a point where your characters are too weak for the enemies. In a normal RPG i would have gone and done something else for a while, and come back when i was stronger. That option was not available.
So what makes these features so great? Well i think humans instinctively like to see something which they created growing and developing before their eyes, and you just don't see that in linear games with no character development
So i think the whole gaming community and industry should take of their hats to hardcore RPGers, because the influence of the genre is further reaching than most people will ever know.
What does everyone else think makes a good game?
stu |
Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:22 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
Game elements that I make for a really fun time:
1. There should be a believable, consistant and logical "world". Using fantasy as an example, it makes no sense to have an Uber monster living a short walk outside of a town ... unless that moster is actively ruling, cowing or somehow profiting from that town not being leveled ... or there is some other power restraining it.
1a. A direct corrolary (sp????) - A world to explore that excites my interest.
2. My actions should have an impact on the world.
3. Character development. Fine tuning a character or a party is a great sport.
4. The challenges provided should be logically solvable. The best counter example was an adventure game where I got stuck, cheat and found the solution was to stand in a particular spot put out a bait and do something three times, the third time you finished by 'bagging' a leprochaun or something. This was totally random with no hints prior to it as to where to stand, what to do etc. I suppose, given that I was trapped in a loop with only 6 or so spots to stand and a limited inventory of 20 or so items, and limited selection of action options (four or so) that there is a finite chance I could stumble on the answer, but ... well ... needless to say, I never finished the game.
5. More than one way to solve a challenge. While my usual option is to bull ahead and mow down the opposition, I love being rewarded for being sneaky or clever. Obnoxious baker bothering you? Buy the mortgage to the bakery and close him down! I'd love a game that allowed me to do that.
6. A good story. I don't have to save the world ... but a good story is a must.
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Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:48 pm |
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stanthony
One Smart Dog
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Posts: 556
Location: Tallinn, Estonia |
First of all I have to disagree that character development necessarily makes a good game. A most stricking recent example of it for me was Combat Flight Simulator 3 where they inserted a chacter progression for pilots  For God's sake!!! How on earth the number of enemy planes hit add to health and stamina of a pilot? But that would be an extreme example. Honestly, I dislike recent trends of adding character development elements to games. It seems like following a fashion of some sort. I got a feeling that CRPG are "cool" and "smart" and that's why you should have a bit of it in every game. But that's exactly how both RPG and non-RPG sides of game may suffer.
Yes, there are positive examples. Warcraft III for one thing. Although, I didn't like it very much, I admit, that char. development adds a nice touch to the game.
As to game elements, Lintra presented a good list here, so I will only add some details.
1. Atmosphere. It is very important for me. Everything should be believable, made in one way, there should be a definite style to things of one area/time/world. Examples of such are IMO P:T (d'oh!), Fallout, Icewind Dale (maybe BG, but not BG2 which IMO get a bit too eclectic with it's constant shift of dimentions/locations). Game should play as if you're reading a good book, a very good book. Good in the sense of writing style, not only a plot, which is quite a different thing...
2. Plot. Obvious alright.
3. Interaction with gaming environment, or as Lintra just put it - impact of actions on gaming world. Preferably in every possible sense (limited by plot). By this I mean making difference in politics/local events/saving the world as well as interacting with surrounding obects in Morrowind / Ultima / Divine Divinity way.
4. A good mixture of open-ended / plot-driven game.
_________________
- Druids do not fight with metal weapons! Sit here, and you over here. Put the elbows of your right arms on the table...
- Arm-pulling? Get me back me pan!
R.A.Salvatore The Cleric Quintet. Canticle |
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Wed Aug 20, 2003 8:25 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
| Re: What makes a good game? |
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quote:
Originally posted by Chicknstu
I personally can't stand the Final Fantasy series for this reason. What's the point in developing your character when the bad guys increase in power at a proportional rate?
quote:
Originally posted by Chicknstu
Well i think humans instinctively like to see something which they created growing and developing before their eyes, and you just don't see that in linear games with no character development
I have to completely dissagree with you there. I enjoy the FF games just as much as I do the Gothic games, and way more than I do Morrowind. For exactly the reason you state. I like seeing something grow and develop before my eyes.
How you can say that the FF games are stupid because the creatures get stronger as you do is incomprehensible. Yes the games are linear in one sense of the word, but generally with the FF games you can always go travelling around the world to battle other creatures.
What is the point of a game where you get stronger and all the enemies stay the same? Once you get strong enough to defeat them you are going to get bored very VERY quickly. The whole appeal for FF to me is the fact that the creatures ARE getting stronger all the time and through my skills and character management I can STILL kick their asses.
I would feel no accomplishment if I was just killing the same stuff over and over and having it getting easier every time.
There has been points in FF where creatures were too tough for me. But I CAN go other places and fight something else for a while.
The only part of FF games that was linear was the story line and quests. There werent that many side quests. But in regards to your comments on the human need to develop something, FF fills that need as much as any other game for me.
As for non-linear. I think that is highly overrated. I like games that have non-linear elements alongside the linear stuff. ala Gothic. But when you use non-linearity for its own sake, you end up with a very unfocused and boring game.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Wed Aug 20, 2003 8:47 pm |
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Chicknstu
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 15 Jun 2003
Posts: 32
Location: Dundee, Scotland |
i just can't stand the ff series i'm afraid. i think my least fave bit has to be the random fights. i KNOW everyone is going to say how 'it's fine' and 'it's only supposed to be an abstraction of reality', but i don't like tha way you can get lost in an area, and finding your way out is a nightmare because every 15 seconds you go into a random fight with an unseen assailant. I want to be able to slink away, maybe to buy some healing potions from a local town, then come back revitalized. you never really get to do that, because the game is so fast-paced.
nice graphics though
stu |
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Thu Aug 21, 2003 12:18 am |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
Hiya, im kinda a designer type person that never designs anything. Anyway, Okey, i usually NEVER post intelligently on these forums, since usually i just comment with short concise comments, heh. Its not that im not intelligent, its because i am extremely freakin busy playing games. Ammon = heavy gamer. But i suppose i will add a bit here about what in my opinion makes a CRPG attractive to me. I play all sorts of games but i enjoy CRPGs probably the most.
1. Its got to have opportunities and myriad possibilities. The more things i could potentially do in the world, the better. And the world has got to be reactive: it must change because of things i do. And change it must, else it gets old too quickly.
2. Its got to be designed by a mature, intelligent person. I can always tell when a game was designed badly. For instance, i could tell from being in SWG beta that SWG was a hodge-podge of crap thrown together to make a profit. Thats exactly what it is. People might enjoy it, but it still is a hodge-podge targetted at a casual-player market. Good game design are games like Fallout, Baldurs Gate, Arx Fatalis, and Gothic.
3. The setting must make sense. I dont like games that throw together two settings into one and call it a gameworld. I am talking about mixing technology-based setting with a traditional fantasy-based setting. Sure, it might have worked, but i still think it stinks to throw them both together. But i still like to play Wizardry8 anyway, despite that. Its just a personal gripe that i have about certain games.
4. Complexity. Most people dont like it. I revel in it. Make the ruleset complicated and i am in heaven. Nuff said there.
5. Progression and Challenge. I want to progress through the world, and i want to be challenged throughout my progression. Easy to understand. I also want to be challenged in a battle. I would like the AI to be smart. I want to barely win a fight, barely. Thats fun. Challenge is fun in battle. Otherwise battle is monotenous.
6. Graphics. The new CRPG i just bought had better have better graphics than the one i got last Christmas.
7. Innovation. Get innovative! Raise the bar! Progress the genre! Impress me!
Now im gonna go play BF1942, cya! |
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Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:12 am |
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ShadowWolfe
Noble Knight
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 205
Location: In the northern mountains of the western continent. |
Killing! lots of Killing!
but I agree with you Ammon, I aswell am a designer that never designs much of anything... but i am a great story comer'uper'with. but yeah I agree with you totally.
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Thu Aug 21, 2003 3:45 am |
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Chicknstu
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 15 Jun 2003
Posts: 32
Location: Dundee, Scotland |
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
4. Complexity. Most people dont like it. I revel in it. Make the ruleset complicated and i am in heaven. Nuff said there.
I agree with you, provided by 'complex' you don't mean 'impossible to comprehend without a 300 page manual'
I love games with loads of subtle little rules and circumstances which affect your character, but it should still be perfectly clear to anybody playing what is going on. The best games never leave you wondering.
stu |
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Thu Aug 21, 2003 11:11 am |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
I was playing M&M7 last night and realized I left off an important item:
7. Lots of little mile stones to keep the feeling of accomplishment going. This is was what made Civ (and Civ 2 and Civ 3) so addictive.
-"I'll quit playing after I get to make tanks", but then
-"Okay, so now I can build a tank unit, so I'll go to bed after the first tank unit is built", but then,
-"Now I have a tank, so I have to use it. I'll go to bed after I take that Mongol city", but then
-"The Mongols are annoying, I'll go to bed after I force a peace on them", but then
-"Okay, I'll go to bed after I develope planes"....
M&M7 does this too by having expert, master and grand master levels in each skill. There is a constant sense of advancement.
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Thu Aug 21, 2003 11:44 am |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
Yes you are right about the FF battles, they can get VERY annoying when you are backtracking.
They did improve it somewhat in FFVIII when you could walk on the roads and not get attacked, but then that just ended up making you too weak to kill stuff.
I like twisting storylines in RPG's too. Like Deus Ex, P:T, etc. As someone said in a previous post. A good game should play like a reading a very good book.
Everyone here has made very good points. Now someone just needs to make a game and include them all. (I think the Gothic series has most of them).
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:08 pm |
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ShadowWolfe
Noble Knight
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 205
Location: In the northern mountains of the western continent. |
thats why gothic is such a good game ... the only thing i didnt like about it ... was the static character. if i was able to create my own char it would have been improving on perfection. 
_________________
NIL MORTIFI, SINE LUCRE
Member of Dragon Lord
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
.: Amd XP 2700+
.: Geforce FX 5900 Ultra
.: 1024mb DDr pc2700
.: 120GB UDMA 7200 RPM 2MB WD
.: 2 LG LCD Screens @ 19" Viewing |
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Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:16 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowWolfe
improving on perfection.
What an interesting concept 
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:29 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
quote:
Originally posted by Chekote
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowWolfe
improving on perfection.
What an interesting concept
Zen. Very zen. 
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=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Just plain clueless= |
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Thu Aug 21, 2003 4:33 pm |
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Chicknstu
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 15 Jun 2003
Posts: 32
Location: Dundee, Scotland |
quote:
Originally posted by Chekote
I like twisting storylines in RPG's too. Like Deus Ex, P:T, etc. As someone said in a previous post. A good game should play like a reading a very good book.
True for CRPG's, but a lot of games don't need a plot. (Monkey Ball, smash bros, Sports titles, or racing games). The progression element is still there though (through unlockables), and even some character development (NBA street / Gran Turismo)
quote:
Originally posted by Chekote
Everyone here has made very good points. Now someone just needs to make a game and include them all.
What a damn good idea! People in this room have already said they design games. I've actually got one in progress at the moment (Which i put on another thread already, about independant RPG's) It's a really naff little early web site, but it has a screenshot and some info. I'm looking for people who might be interested in helping me with it. Won't be making any money though, just for fun / portfolios.
www.angelfire.com/creep/stuband/evo
I'm trying to iron out problems i found with Civilization and Heores of might and magic. I'm taking the character development of 'heroes', and mixing it with the empire building of Civ... adding a dose of Chaos and making it run in real time.
anyone has any suggestions, i'd love to hear them.
stu |
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Thu Aug 21, 2003 5:25 pm |
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Kabduhl
City Guard
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 127
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-- Reactive gameworld. Player choice affects storyline, outcome, and depending upon influence (power) of character can have even further effects.
-- Give the player the freedom to succeed and to fail. Winning the game or even just completing certain quests doesn't necessarily need to be a given. Also the player should never be constrained by unrealistic limitations that are put in place because developers are lazy. ie. when games do not let you attack or steal from whomever you please because it may affect their idea of what the story should be. Make the game the gameworld and the gameplay player driven. Devs drop the egos and quit force feeding the story to the player. Customers like me are getting FED UP with linear, limiting gameplay and if I even get a hint that the game I was thinking about purchasing is unecessarily artificially limiting I will do a 180 from the game store and go do something besides play another lazily developed game.
(NOTE: I understand my opinion do not necessarily reflect those of all gamers ... I'm not saying my way is the only way, it's just the only way for me.)
-- I like a skill/level based system for my RPG's. Gaining levels mark milestones in a PC's career while skill increases are awarded by frequent successful use of skills.
-- NPC's that have purpose other than providing interraction for the PC.
-- Did I mention player freedom yet? further example ... player should be able to serve her/his own desires.
-- Allow for as much variation in character creation as is humanly possibly for the develoment team. Seriously. If you have to kill plans for flashy FMV in order to maintain a very high level of options for character creation then do so. Gamers are diverse. RPG gamers love to play as alternate personas. Playing through games different times with different personas is extremely fun in a good RPG. This is Gothic's one serious and highly detrimental weakness. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON FOR ONLY BEING ABLE TO CHOOSE FROM ONE BODY TYPE/HEAD TYPE ... well there is a reason, lazy developers.
(\puts on flame retardent jacket)
I love Gothic by the way I just really disliked the look of the main character. His little goatee made me want to headbut him and stomp on his head 42 times in rapid succession.
-- Lots of equipment and item options. Gear/weapons/armor/magic stuff are all elements that enhance gameplay in many ways. Let people customize their kit to their heart's content. It wouldn't hurt to provide multiple color options for each kind of armor (or a dye option or something similar).
-- Make gameplay equally fun for all gameplay styles. My main gripe here has to do with melee fighters. Normally in RPG's melee fighting is relatively lackluster and devoid of strategy while wizards get to incorporate loads of strategy into their gameplay. Make warriors more interactive to play. Gothic did quite well in this regard, very very fun combat system. It could still be improved upon but I really salute Pirhana Bytes for making fighters cool and fun to play.
-- Challenge challenge challenge for pity's sake please please please the gamer. Morrowind developers you FAILED 100% to provide challenging gameplay for high level characters in a free form almost unending RPG. Shame shame shame on you lazy ass developers at Bethsoft.
One more note -----> STOP THE TREND OF DUMBING DOWN GAMES PLEASE OR I WILL QUIT PLAYING THEM. IT IS NOT A CRIME TO MAKE PLAYERS THINK AND TRY HARD TO WIN/SUCCEED IN THE GAME. DITCH YOUR EGO AND YOUR DESIRE TO MAKE IT EASY TO SEE THE WHOLE GAME. MAKE US OVERCOME CHALLENGES TO SUCCEED IN THE GAME AND WE WILL APPRECIATE OUR SUCCESSES MUCH MUCH MORE. |
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Fri Aug 22, 2003 9:19 am |
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