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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
Yes you are right. It is a very difficult subject to tackle.
In regards to your last comment, I dont particularly care if people call me a greifer in game and want to come kill me. I enjoy people wanting to kill me, I am evil! 
However, what I dont like, is people who take it out of the game and into the real world, and end up completely changing a game I have loved for years, completely destroying my enjoyment of the only MMORPG I have ever liked. (UO)
As you said, a very difficult subject...
P.S. @Vaticide Just an off-topic note: Great Avatar and Title btw. Very funny. Always makes me grin when I see it. 
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:32 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
Well, you can roleplay evil all you want. But there is a line to be crossed.
Here is the problem: Griefers are evil people too. So if you dont wanna be treated like a griefer, play evil in a single-player game where you wont affect anyone with your evilness. Roleplaying doesnt happen in mmorpgs. That excuse doesnt apply anymore. Nobody roleplays in online games because its far easier to just be yourself.
So you can play like an evil person (evil people are pricks, jerks, and a--holes), but in Darkfall, dont do it around my village, because we'll kill you for it outright. And im not roleplaying. |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:06 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
quote:
Originally posted by Kiff
Thats what DE says, and thats whay they and you and me hope will happen. But comon Ammon your always telling me not to get caught in the hype. It's easier for a developer to type a line than it is for them to type that line of code...
That is an ignorant statement.
EDIT -- i meant that you were wrong about my hyping that game. giving out general information about a game does not constitute hype. i didnt say you are an ignorant person, i meant that you are wrong about me.
Last edited by Ammon777 on Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:12 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
So you can play like an evil person (evil people are pricks, jerks, and a--holes), but in Darkfall, dont do it around my village, because we'll kill you for it outright. And im not roleplaying.
Calm down Ammon.  If you read Chekote's previous posts, I wouldn't label him as a griefer if he plays the way he describes. There's no reason to label all the people who chose to play "evil" characters the way you did... I've enjoyed PvP in a few games, and I've encountered some that played good evil roles without being griefers.
Besides, playing an evil character is probably right up there with playing an opposite sex avatar as being the most popular way to roleplay. I think, Ammon, that you greatly underestimate the amount of roleplayers out there. When you next see a woman character online, remember that about 3 out of 4 of them are actually men playing another role. Like it or not, that's roleplaying. And most people who play evil characters do because it's easier to play something opposite your own nature. Griefers just use it as an excuse.
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
That is an ignorant statement.
No, that's just someone pointing out to you that the games you mentioned are not out yet and things might change a lot by the time they are live. They can't really be used as examples, but what they do plan to do seems interesting nonetheless. We'll just have to wait and see how it actually plays out in the real world. And no, beta cannot be accounted for that. The jerks mostly come out once the game is on the shelves...
_________________
=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:18 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
Sorry, i've been griefed before in these games lots of time, and i dont like them because they're evil people. But if they pretend to be evil without emotionally harming another person, then i have no problem with that.
As for DE, the info i get is on their website. By repeating it here does not constitute hyping. Hence that was an ignorant statement. Also, if you dont know about a game's design goals before commenting on it, then you're being ignorant concerning that game. I didnt say he was an ignorant person, i meant that statement about me hyping something was wrong. Im not hyping any game. I hyped SWG a lot and got burned. Why should i hype any game now? |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:27 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
So you can play like an evil person (evil people are pricks, jerks, and a--holes), but in Darkfall, dont do it around my village, because we'll kill you for it outright. And im not roleplaying.
Yes I do roleplay, sorry if you dont agree. I have as much right to roleplay MMORPG's as you do. I will not be relegated to Single Player RPG's simply because you do not agree with my method of play.
It seems strange to me that I am labelled the Greifer, and yet here I am, having a perfectly civilized conversation with people who arent necessarily for PvP, and you come along and post such offensive remarks?
I will not stoop to your level.
_________________
IMHO my opinion is humble
Last edited by Chekote on Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:29 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
I apologize for offending you. I have a serious mood disorder and thinking about griefers makes me extremely manic. I really need to control my anger better.  |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:30 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
Apology accepted. I feel the same way about people who stop me from playing how I want.
_________________
IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:37 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
Well thanks. I apologize to Kiff as well. You're not ignorant, im just moody. |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:39 pm |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
Chekote,
First, my apologies for not reading the whole thread, it got long and I'm too tired right now (I did read most of your posts on the first page).
I don't mind 'evil' characters. But, if I were to justify their existence, then I need to have the same tools available to me that I do in real life. In other words, I need to be able to 'protect' myself from 'evil' people. Be it locks on the door, a gun in my drawer, a threat of a punch in the face, calling the police, or any other of the number of 'preventive' techniques available to me right now. If I cannot protect myself from you being 'evil' then you should not be allowed to be evil. As far as I'm concerned, you can stuff your liberty of playstyle where the sun don't shine. I have a liberty to play the game relatively free of 'evilness' and unless I can ensure that, I don't play.
All that being said, I find 'griefers' to be people who exploit game dynamics (or sometimes the spirit of the game) to gain an unfair advantage over other people and use this advantage to kill people without any fear of repraisal. Your definition of evil player does not fit this bill.
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:31 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
I dunno, does player justice even work? Nobody, really, has given it a fair shot yet. Lets say im playing Darkfall. Im using this example because it says on the Darkfall site that they will have this stuff for Darkfall (but who knows). Anyway, lets say i have some friends who own a small town with a fortification-wall surrounding it. Anybody that is on the enemy list, which the ruler of town controls through a management interface, will be able to enter the town, but they will attacked by the npc guards. Say Jake wanted to get into town to sell some stuff he had, but he had actually griefed one of my friends earlier. Now every time Jake enters our town, he gets attacked by the npc guards, plus anyone that is aware who is in the town. He will be flagged as an enemy. However, about 2 miles away there's a fort that has never heard of Jake. So Jake can go there and sell his loot or buy stuff free from any harassment from the locals. Thats player-driven justice, and thats what i would like to see in a game. They should just give us those options to enforce the law. Thats what stops griefers sometimes. |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:47 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
Thats player-driven justice, and thats what i would like to see in a game. They should just give us those options to enforce the law. Thats what stops griefers sometimes.
That system is so open to exploit that it gives me the shudders! Imagine this: You find a player named Joe to buy a sword from. He gives you the price, you like it, and you guys agree to meet and exchange money and item. You do the trade, but he's distracted and doesn't think to look if you gave him the money. He's also a dimwit, and he doesn't know how much money he has in his pocket before he hits the OK button. He gives a yelp, and starts claiming that you didn't give him the money. You're calm about it and explain that you did, but he won't hear about it. He screams foul.
You apologize, but by principle you don't want to give him the sword back because you know he won't give back the money that you actually gave him. Joe is pissed, to say the least. He goes back to his town, and starts bad-mouthing you. You end up on the black list. It turns out that Joe has a lot of friends. He gets you on the black list of 10 other cities. You can't go anywhere anymore without having to deal with players who think wrong of you. But now you can't even explain yourself, everyone just jumps on you first, and don't ask questions later....
That's just one scenario, but there are about a thousand other ways this thing could go very awry. I tell you... leave it to players to be their own worst enemies. A system that keeps griefers in check has to be moderated by the devs, not the players. It can be enforced by players in certain ways, but not moderated. Players, as Chekote already pointed out, have twitchy fingers and call out for griefing much too easily...
quote:
Originally posted by MoonDragon
All that being said, I find 'griefers' to be people who exploit game dynamics (or sometimes the spirit of the game) to gain an unfair advantage over other people and use this advantage to kill people without any fear of repraisal.
That has to be the best definition of it I've read.
_________________
=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:05 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
Woah Ekim. You're right, good thing im not a designer. I think ill stick to being a player. And Darkfall might not have that exactly, i was drawing conclusions. |
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Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:59 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
quote:
Originally posted by MoonDragon
I don't mind 'evil' characters. But, if I were to justify their existence, then I need to have the same tools available to me that I do in real life. In other words, I need to be able to 'protect' myself from 'evil' people. Be it locks on the door, a gun in my drawer, a threat of a punch in the face, calling the police, or any other of the number of 'preventive' techniques available to me right now.
In UO (The only MMORPG I ever PK'd in) you had all of those things. Locks on doors, X-Bows in your drawer, a threat of a punch in the face, calling the police (City Guards), and also spells and any friends who happened to be in the neighbourhood. Trust me, being evil is not easy, its a very dangerous (and therefore fun) way to play.
The only time the system started to break down was when people would take their whining outside of the game and contact the devs, then it just ended up ruining the game for everyone (Not just the PK's). As soon as they got rid of PvP in UO the game died instantly. It was a Ghost town...
quote:
Originally posted by MoonDragon
All that being said, I find 'griefers' to be people who exploit game dynamics (or sometimes the spirit of the game) to gain an unfair advantage over other people and use this advantage to kill people without any fear of repraisal. Your definition of evil player does not fit this bill.
Yes I agree. But "Greifers" are also those PK's that gave us a bad name and just killed noobs. The ones you mentioned usualy got banned from the game anyway because they were using "Exploits" that are illegal. Those type of people were the "Blue PK's" (So called because they would use exploits to avoid being flagged as a murderer and thus have their names changed red), these are the lowest forms of PK's and were uterly despised by the Gentlmen/Lady PK's.
_________________
IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:57 pm |
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Kiff
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 257
Location: Indiana |
[quote="Chekote
The only time the system started to break down was when people would take their whining outside of the game and contact the devs, then it just ended up ruining the game for everyone (Not just the PK's). As soon as they got rid of PvP in UO the game died instantly. It was a Ghost town...
[/quote]
Agreed...I didn't PK and I didn't much like the PKers but there was no UO left when they took that part of the game away. After they took the PKing away, it was the game I wanted...and I didn't like it very much. It was boring. |
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Thu Sep 04, 2003 1:53 pm |
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