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bjon045
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 234
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quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
The reasoning is that pirates were never going to pay for the game in the first place. Well, if they had to pay for the game the unit sales would go up,
No if they had to pay, they wouldn't buy it at all, exactly as you said in your first sentence. Hence sales would not go up. Increasing sales through a pirate liking what he is playing is just as likely as making it uncopyable. The statistics that the anti-piracy organisations use are so completely full of shit, they assume each downloaded copy is lost revenue. when a significant percentage of downloaders don't even play what they download nor would they ever pay a cent for it. What they should be targetting is the conterfietters and they guys SELLING copies, they are the ones who affect revenue. |
Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:05 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
quote:
Originally posted by bjon045
quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
The reasoning is that pirates were never going to pay for the game in the first place. Well, if they had to pay for the game the unit sales would go up,
No if they had to pay, they wouldn't buy it at all, exactly as you said in your first sentence. Hence sales would not go up. Increasing sales through a pirate liking what he is playing is just as likely as making it uncopyable. The statistics that the anti-piracy organisations use are so completely full of shit, they assume each downloaded copy is lost revenue. when a significant percentage of downloaders don't even play what they download nor would they ever pay a cent for it. What they should be targetting is the conterfietters and they guys SELLING copies, they are the ones who affect revenue.
Why would people steal something they have no interest in? If people want something and the only way to get it is to pay, they do a cost/benefit analysis and either pay and have it or they don't. Your reasoning is more than flawed, its silly.
I don't like country music, if I stole a country music cd I wouldn't listen to it. Would that make it right? And most importantly, why would I steal it? Take risk without any reward? Why? It doesn't happen. People steal things because they are interested in them. An interest in a product is demand. Because of pirates the demand curve artificially shifts up (or left) so less product is made and sold for a higher price. I pay for the cost of their thievery. Its simple economics. Thats not even getting into the fact of the less working capital to invest in producing more product that might even result in an actual rpg being made.
Pirates can justify what they do all day but it wont make it right, but thats fine since if I meet one I will gladly justify stealing their anal virginity. It won't make it right, but it will probably fun. It might even make a good game, "The Butt Pirates vs. the Game Pirates."
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Thu Jun 16, 2005 3:24 am |
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Dez
King of the Realms
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 455
Location: Fortress of Tell Halaf |
Pirates allways use the phrase "i'd have not bought it anyway" as an excuse for their stealing. So what if a pirate would have not bought it? He is STILL using someone's else property without a proper licence! A thief takes something which does not belong to him. It does not really matter if the thing he steals is something material such as a car or just abstractive such as a gaming experience.At the end it is still STEALING. A developer team has worked 3 years to develop that experience for us gamers(their product).A pirate takes this gaming experience from them without paying a cent.
I am so pissed of people who justify their stealing with false morals. I do not see the actual warezing process the worst crime in a universe, but if a warez-dood thinks, that he is not doing anything wrong i'll get angry.It is like an insult towards honest gamers.
As long as i've been a gamer, i've bought games(for nes, sega megadrive, psx, pc).Now all suddenly i'm just going to decide that i won't buy a single game anymore, Hell i'll just warez every game, but the developers are not going to lose anything because i have just made a decision not to buy anything from the beginning!
i'd like to hear pirates' answer to this one:
Who will buy these gemes if all the gamers will do do like you? What if we all decent gamers here will decide that we are not going to buy for these game experiences anymore. What will happen to these devhouses who develop these wonderfull games if no one is paying for playing them?
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The focused mind can pierce through stone |
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Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:32 pm |
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Kamahl
King of Spam
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 1668
Location: Slovenia-Ljubljana |
no the prob why piracy lives is that the games are too exspencive
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Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:03 pm |
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Ratavuk
Noble Knight
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 213
Location: I-Net |
That's why Adventures don't sell well anymore. Because there replay value is close to zero. People nowadays tend to buy titles with great bang per buck value or they buy complete crap titles like Deer Hunter. And there are people willing to pay monthly fees on onlinegames. And there are people willing to pay nothing for them for several reasons you can't change.
Let me finish my post with an excerpt from our old fellow Warren Spector:
"I never minded piracy. Anyone who minds about piracy is full of shit. Anyone who pirates your game wasn’t going to buy it anyway!" |
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Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:06 am |
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Kamahl
King of Spam
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 1668
Location: Slovenia-Ljubljana |
He has a point in the last sentence
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Destroy the dark side, we will
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die dunkle Seite zerstören, wir sollen |
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Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:12 pm |
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Ratavuk
Noble Knight
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 213
Location: I-Net |
Where has Uriziels post gone ? Is Gorath back from holidays ? |
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Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:55 am |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
Comparing piracy to stealing without expanding the example is a bad comparison. Piracy is more like loaning a utter crap car that barely runs, and most of the time it will stop, crash, run off the road without the driver doing anything wrong etc. A game today is a mass-produced piece of junk, and the only car which can be compared to a game, is a car from the 1920s which hasn't had a single bolt tightened since then. The few games that are worth buying will be bought, the rest won't. Games like Gothic, Warcraft etc which are done very thoroughly with a lot of soul from the devs will never have a piracy problem - they will be bought soon after people have downloaded it and tried it(because the replay-value is so good, and the game itself more than worth the money).
Most games are not worth the money you spend on it, however. The demo you usually get isnt anywhere near the real game(you get some juiced up thing which is nothing like the real game). To compare that to a car, you would *not* be allowed to take it for a test-drive. Instead, you would get the seat, the radio, and perhaps the wheels, and have the manufactiorer go "go ahead, try it. See? The seat works, and the wheels are round".
When you try a car, you get the whole car for a period of time. Games should be the same way, otherwise the entire comparison is completely wrong. Most people I know treat piracy as they would test-driving a car: If the game is worth buying - they buy it. If it's utter crap, they don't.
It may sound like I defend piracy. I don't. Not really. I don't see the problem with it either to be honest - the sales would not go up if piracy didn't exist. That is as stupid as saying car sales would go up because people were not allowed to test-drive or rent cars(or loan from a neighbour, like many do with games/cars). The good games get bought anyway, as do the good cars. I'm just sorry that so many people get fooled by cool vids and cool demos and still buy the crap some devs produce simply to make money, and not to make a good game.
The same goes for music. I download music. Don't you? It's as much piracy as downloading games. The thing is - I still buy CDs from artists I really like. Before I was "allowed" to try out different artists though, I never bought anything but what people recommended. Nowadays I download music from loads of artists, many not commonly known, and suddenly realize "woah, this music is great". And so, I buy their CD. I would not have bought that CD if I didn't get to listen to it for more than 40 seconds at a music store however.
So piracy leads to people "losing money". At the same time it's an incredibly powerful way of selling - the PR value is huge. That's why so many artists are starting to embrace internet downloading etc - they realize what kind of enourmes amounts of PR they get through it. All in all, piracy doesn't really lead to either gain or loss, it's simply a new way of using technology, and needs to be adapted like everything else. There is a reason why people making open source programs are still making a living from it, and the people behind free programs like Kazaa are millionairs by now. |
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Sun Jun 19, 2005 1:40 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
Your arguements are nonsense, why would someone pay for something they got for free? Why steal something and go out and buy it? Warcraft 3 had a huge piracy problem, check all the no-cd cracks that come out with new patches.
You can sugar-coat your bs but it still comes down to people stealing a want item. If all games are crap, don't but them. Don't justify thievery because you don't like how the market works. Video games aren't a neccesity in life, people lived for a very long time without them.
Lets apply your theory to females. They market themsleves all fancied up with make-up to hook you. Does that justify rape? If you want the snappy nappy you have to pay for it and play their crap-ass buggy stupid game that makes no sense. Because raping is stealing and stealing is bad. But intercourse is not a neccesity in life, and those that rape are outcast by society. If you want the sweet love you have to pay like the rest of us and wade through all the insane female requirments that almost make the sweet loving almost not worth it.
And your car comparison is also way off. The true comparison would be stealing a car to test drive it. Not to mention a car's sticker price compared to a games.
"It may sound like I defend piracy. I don't. Not really. I don't see the problem with it either to be honest - the sales would not go up if piracy didn't exist. That is as stupid as saying car sales would go up because people were not allowed to test-drive or rent cars(or loan from a neighbour, like many do with games/cars). The good games get bought anyway, as do the good cars. I'm just sorry that so many people get fooled by cool vids and cool demos and still buy the crap some devs produce simply to make money, and not to make a good game"
I don't know if I'm typing invisible words or you're just not reading them, but saying that sales wouldn't go up if piracy didn't exist is very wrong. It is impossible.
Lets go through the logic slowly.
1) People steal things they have an interest in, in this pirate case, video games.
2) If pirating didn't exist, does not mean these thieves' interest wouldn't.
3) Maybe half of them would deside not to spend money on games, but at least half would (and thats being ultra-conservative). people spend money on what interests them. Demand means market interest. Its simple economics. Maybe pirates should spend less time stealing and playing video games and get an education on the fundamentals of markets and sociology.
Your arguement is hedged around that people that are inclined to thievery of a product(s) they want, will not spend money on it but will steal it because s/he is interested in it(them), but if s/she really likes it, out comes the wallet. But if the thievery option was no longer available, all interest would fade away and all the pirates would go outside and play patty-cake and hop-scotch because spending money on their hobby is crazy. So its all or nothing: free video games or no video games. That is not even close to correct and anyone that says different is not that bright.
Thats like saying these pirates wouldn't have the internet if they had to pay for it. They like it and all, but spending money on it? Oh wait, they do spend money on connecting to the internet, because they have to (unless their wirless mootchers also). If people want something and they have to pay for it, they do. If people want something, and they are thieves, and they can steal it, they do.
I at least wish pirates would take a course in critical thinking so they would stop scratching the surface with the same old nonsense that is easily shot down with reality and a good bebate instead of just regurgitated info could be had.
_________________
Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Sun Jun 19, 2005 2:17 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
*Hits the applause button.*
Well said Roqua. I concur.
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Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:37 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
Just to clarify, I'm not totally against stealing either. Whenever I hear about a celebrity getting robbed I laugh. I can't stand hollywood, the movie industry, or the music industry. I want every rich musician and actor to be robbed blind of their money because I can't stand them and their bleeding-hearts, that don't bleed enough to give enough of their money so they would still have a decent living but not be a hypocrit. If their heart bleeds over all the inhumanity, the bulk of their money would be in the hands of those who need it and not tied up in unliquid assets like humongous mansions with butlers and taxless bonds. Oprah giving a million is like me giving 1/10th of a penny.
But music and movie pirates are not stealing from them, they're steeling from me and other working folk who could really benefit from lower prices, since I have to make up for the lost revenue by paying higher prices. Its not like those filthy actors are ever going to say, "Hey, no problem, just pay me $2 mil instead of $14 so i can help eleviate the piracy problem and help the working folk out." Rich, greedy, annoying, bastards. I like pirates as much as I like them; they're all greedy, self-centered bastards who only care about their own self gratification and screw the working person.
But I truely do believe in freedom of conscience so if people want to steal and justify it go head, I wish more people would do it by stealing directly from the actors/musicians who could stand to have lighter pockets. But I also still have the freedom of conscience to judge them and despise them for justifing stealing from me indirectly.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:20 am |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
@Ratavuk: RPGDot is strongly opposed to piracy. Naturally, piracy is a very sensitive topic to discuss on a company-owned discussion forum, and admitting to stealing games is not the smartest way to go about it - so let it rest now.
Topic closed.
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Jaz |
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Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:28 am |
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