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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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| Do RPGs need level-based advancement? |
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It seems that most games feature characters that grow stronger through level advancement, where you can either boost your stats or abilities at each level. My question: is this neccessary? Don't get me wrong; I'm playing Wizardry 8, and I think it's a great gameplay mechanic, whether you have a lot of direct control over your levels (Wiz  or whether they are more preset (Baldurs' Gate).
But why, in a basic way, are levels even used? I think it's essentially for two reasons: one, to develop your character and make you feel like he's growing. Two, to vary the gameplay, as combat becomes different as you get newer and better abilities.
However, I don't think I would be averse to a game where you did not progress AT ALL in levels and such, if they managed to accomplish those two goals without levels, or even just skill-based improvement. In other words, I think I could be fine with a game in which I stayed level 8 the whole game, with no increase in stats or abilities whatsoever; when you think about it, levels are really an artificial, but useful gameplay mechanic.
How could they accomplish a game without this type of advancement?
I believe that the answer lies in designing the game so that the character's interaction and relationships with people defined him or her to the player, such that instead of constantly changing stats and abilities, the player could be modifying his relationships, his network of informants, allies, faction ratings, and the sort. And instead of varying the gameplay with greater abilities and access to higher level spells, you could vary the gameplay by the equipment the character has access to, and the type of problems (such as combat) you would face. A lowly character may just have to worry about himself vs. rats, but a high-ranking character may be in charge of groups of people, or even an army, and the equipment itself could drastically change the gameplay. And-- perhaps knowledge itself of how to deal with challenges unique to the game would lead to more varied gameplay (like let's say using Fensit Root causes an allergic reaction in Giant Panthers that causes them to run amok). When you learn this, it's as if you gained a new ability, except it's more natural.
Now when looking back on it, the reason I'm proposing this is because it would lead to more immersive gameplay (for me). Whenever I get a "level-up" screen, I'm reminded that I'm playing a game with such artificial devices. And so I guess that skill-based advancement may be OK within the type of system I'm proposing, as long as skill is improved ONLY via practice, or special "training" sessions in which practice-based improvement is accellerated. But the main crux of improvement should be in relationships, knowledge, and perhaps equipment.
For isn't that how it is in real life?
- Wind
PS: I know that games shouldn't always try to imitate reality, but in this case, I think it would be a creative and fun gameplay mechanic. |
Mon Aug 05, 2002 11:59 pm |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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I think ability based leveling (like in Morrowwind) makes more sense, but I think if we only went with one way to level it would get stale. I think instead of just using one system, game companies should be trying to think of creative new ways to level. Perhaps you could only level when you convince certain people to train you, and not use exp. points or progressed skill levels. That would be fairly realistic as well. |
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Tue Aug 06, 2002 12:22 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
quote:
Originally posted by Suicidal Cockroach
I think ability based leveling (like in Morrowwind) makes more sense...........
i tend to agreed.
As on other ways to level up, i think that depend on what kind of CRPGs. Should we consider use leveling based on how often we use certain skills in action CRPGs (diablo etc),? or it's better use in hardcore CRPGs (MW)?. i personally not sure about it.
another factor to consider is acceptability in leveling from perspective of players. Various player have different preference on leveling format...
also, other method of leveling would be too complex tp implement & thus prevent games developer to consider its. Even more importance, it's possible that developers only follow what leveling format more often used or prefer by majority of gamer.
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Tue Aug 06, 2002 5:36 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
I agree that this would be more realistic. Morrowind partly utilised this type of system, with stats that improved "on the fly".
On the other hand, I love the excitement of a level gain. Some games do it better than others; some games advance too quickly, so the levels are meaningless, or sometimes the levels themselves don't impact sufficiently on gameplay.
But *sometimes* there is a sort on tension/excitement that builds as you approach a new level (and start planning those new skills in your mind), that I would hate to lose even if it meant better realism. |
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Tue Aug 06, 2002 9:21 am |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
On the other hand, I love the excitement of a level gain. Some games do it better than others; some games advance too quickly, so the levels are meaningless, or sometimes the levels themselves don't impact sufficiently on gameplay.
Well, you put your finger right on it. The reason levels are present in most RPGs is to create a sense of growth and excitement in the player's mind. It's like a carrot hanging on a rope at the end of a stick right in front of our nose. It's calling us, you actually want to get to the next level, even though you know that once you do the enemies will only get stronger and you'll still be having the same challenge rating as you did throughout the game. It's addictive.
I like your idea Windwalking. But I also think that the kind of advancement you describe is too demanding for most players out there. People unfortunately don't want to have to crack their heads to gain skills. I don't think we would see that kind of thing in any major RPG because of that. Or maybe I'm just too pessimistic... In any case, I was always a huge fan of skill based advancement. Morrowind is a good example. The only problem is that you need to choose primary and secondary skills that you will actually be using if you want to level up.
One of the best examples of what you describe though was there in Darklands. The system was skill based, but it didn't have any levels. You learned new Alchemy potions by studying them or experimenting with ingredients, you learned about new saints by asking priests to tell you about them, or read in the libraries. you learned how to better swing your sword by actually using it  And there were no levels whatsoever, you just practiced your skills. Maybe you should check it out sometime 
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Tue Aug 06, 2002 4:58 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
Yes, Darklands is very, very good. Very open ended and fun.
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Tue Aug 06, 2002 5:33 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
Whether it's levels or skills or something like Wind proposes, my favorite part of RPGs is character development. I was terribly disappointed with BG1, when 60 hours (or more, don't remember exactly) gave you exactly 6 chances to improve/grow/change your character. Where's the fun in that? Morrowind has been fun from that perspective so far, although Wiz8 may be the king of the hill for me right now. M&M (esp. MM7) did a good job of it, too. They had it set up so that you gained a level almost every time you completed a quest. Talk about immediate paybacks...
I think Wind's concept would end up walking the line between RPG and adventure game. Not really a bad place to be, and certainly not a crowded ssub-genre.
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RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Tue Aug 06, 2002 7:18 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
@dteowner - you may be onto something there. While I enjoyed BG1 it did not 'catch' me ... I had no desire to get BG2, and I think you are correct about the leveling. Not only did you only level up a limited number of times, but your options for customizing you character where very limited. Add to that the D&D "did you make your saving throw? No? Too bad, you are dead" syndrome and I took a pass on BG2 - despite all the raving.
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Tue Aug 06, 2002 7:46 pm |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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quote:
Originally posted by Lintra
@dteowner - you may be onto something there. While I enjoyed BG1 it did not 'catch' me ... I had no desire to get BG2, and I think you are correct about the leveling. Not only did you only level up a limited number of times, but your options for customizing you character where very limited. Add to that the D&D "did you make your saving throw? No? Too bad, you are dead" syndrome and I took a pass on BG2 - despite all the raving.
Well to be fair, that kind of thing happens in any game that has instant condition spells (i.e. a Death spell or something similar). Even Wizardry 8 has such a thing (Death Wish, Instant Death)... My characters sometimes die from instant spells like that, even with all of the protections up (Magic Screen, Soul Shield). It's because their "saving throw" (i.e. resistance) check did not pass.
It's the same thing really. I guess you should go for games without instant death types of abilities (like Gothic, or maybe Morrowind?)
- Wind |
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Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:35 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by Lintra
I took a pass on BG2 - despite all the raving.
Same for me. From all accounts, we missed out on a great game, but I wasn't going to invest that kind of time with a stagnant character again.
@Wind- seems to me that your plan would fit well into an adventure game format. Instead of solving puzzles to access new areas/people/things, you'd be "solving interactions". To truly call it an RPG, though, I think you'd have to have some kind of growth of the avatar. Since you want the skills and stats to remain constant, maybe it would reflect in a ranking "ladder" of some kind.
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Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Tue Aug 06, 2002 9:12 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Lintra
@dteowner - you may be onto something there. While I enjoyed BG1 it did not 'catch' me ... I had no desire to get BG2, and I think you are correct about the leveling. Not only did you only level up a limited number of times, but your options for customizing you character where very limited. Add to that the D&D "did you make your saving throw? No? Too bad, you are dead" syndrome and I took a pass on BG2 - despite all the raving.
To be honest you guys are right in the ratio of level versus time spent in game for BG1. But BG2 was much better. Characters started at level 7 and grew up to be level 17-20 depending on how much side-questing you did. And BG2 was so much better in so many different things than BG2 that it's almost unfair to compare the two. Many people didn't like BG1 but loved BG2.
Anyway, that's beside the point In any caseI think that skill based leveling will always be more dynamic than experience based leveling. Because you will always get the feeling your character is advancing and growing even between the levels, as in Morrowind. In Morrowind, the level just feels like another step, kind of like a sub skill advancement that will boost up your health and mana points. It's a very good system that keeps you on your toes and keeps that dangling carrot even closer to your nose
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Tue Aug 06, 2002 9:25 pm |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
I'd like you all to think back a few years to the classic Ultima games 5-7 mainly. There, there were really no levels as such, but your character grew and advanced. Perhaps that's why they still hold a special place for most gamers.
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Tue Aug 06, 2002 11:13 pm |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
quote:
Originally posted by Lintra
I took a pass on BG2 - despite all the raving.
Same for me. From all accounts, we missed out on a great game, but I wasn't going to invest that kind of time with a stagnant character again.
@Wind- seems to me that your plan would fit well into an adventure game format. Instead of solving puzzles to access new areas/people/things, you'd be "solving interactions". To truly call it an RPG, though, I think you'd have to have some kind of growth of the avatar. Since you want the skills and stats to remain constant, maybe it would reflect in a ranking "ladder" of some kind.
Well, I would assume that my hypothetical RPG would indeed include many puzzles, and not only of the interaction variety. Puzzles of how to fight creatures in combat, which could be solved using clues and knowledge in the game world. Puzzles that normally find themselves in RPGs now; how to open so and so a door, a rune puzzle, etc., those all could be included in the type of game I'm thinking about (or any type of game, really)
However, who says that growth of the avatar has to be in stats and skills for it to be an RPG? Why can't it simpy be growth of power through other means, such as power, influence, equipment, and knowledge? I guess we may differ in how we define the term RPG; to me, it is simply referring to a collection of traits, and the more traits a game fulfills, the more it is an RPG. My most important trait would be the ability to choose your course of action in the game world; no CRPG ever does this completely, so I don't believe that any CRPG is a 100% RPG. The earlier installments of Final Fantasy (2,3, 7) essentially did NOT let you do this at all; I don't even really consider them as RPGs; they're adventures to me, despite the constant level-ups.
I guess what I'm looking for is a game that really takes itself as an RPG, but without the need to use level-ups as a way to "develop" your character. A game like Myst, while challenging and fun (somewhat), is just a linear puzzle-movie. It doesn't have the interactivity of an RPG in which you really interact with and control who your character is. I do enjoy level-based (and skill-based) games; however, it would be very nice if an RPG could define your character in things other than numbers. Someone start a revolution, please
- Wind |
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Wed Aug 07, 2002 4:58 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
I guess it really makes a difference how you define the RPG genre. There's been lots of discussions about this, but I'll throw out my "incredibly wise" thoughts, and then try to tie them into your "proposal".
The foundation of all RPGs is the story. Lots of things branch out of that base, but you can link it all back to story. Now, according to the various literature teachers I've had, the essence of a fictional work boils down to the interplay of two paths: how the protagonist affects change in the world, and how the world affects change in the protagonist. The second option there is largely a passive path. While it can make for a good, thoughtful book, it probably won't be enough to get a gamer to play a game. Most games detail how the avatar changes the world he/she/it is placed in. But, to be true to the rules of "proper" fiction, the world has to change the avatar, too. This is the character development, which happens to be my favorite aspect of RPGs. The simplest way to accomplish that (particularly in a number crunching PC) is to have numerical changes in the makeup of the avatar, whether it's stats, skill, levels, or something else.
So where does this tie in to your thoughts? Well, first, your "definition" of RPGs. Your ideal is really about story as well, but you're looking for an open-ended affair. Rather than turning pages in a book to see what happens next, your looking for a chapter or two of background and then blank pages. Not a bad ideal at all, but most gamers (myself included) will lack the desire and creativity to fill blank page after blank page. As for how you'd reflect the world's affect on the avatar, I still think you'd end up with some sort of ranking system. It could be nice and rigid (essentially a level system), it could be a matrix (different levels with different powers), or it could be strictly titles with no real affect on the avatar beyond acknowledging that something is different (like our forum titles).
Sorry for the length, and the "deep thoughts".
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=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Wed Aug 07, 2002 7:41 pm |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
I guess it really makes a difference how you define the RPG genre. There's been lots of discussions about this, but I'll throw out my "incredibly wise" thoughts, and then try to tie them into your "proposal".
The foundation of all RPGs is the story. Lots of things branch out of that base, but you can link it all back to story. Now, according to the various literature teachers I've had, the essence of a fictional work boils down to the interplay of two paths: how the protagonist affects change in the world, and how the world affects change in the protagonist. The second option there is largely a passive path. While it can make for a good, thoughtful book, it probably won't be enough to get a gamer to play a game. Most games detail how the avatar changes the world he/she/it is placed in. But, to be true to the rules of "proper" fiction, the world has to change the avatar, too. This is the character development, which happens to be my favorite aspect of RPGs. The simplest way to accomplish that (particularly in a number crunching PC) is to have numerical changes in the makeup of the avatar, whether it's stats, skill, levels, or something else.
So where does this tie in to your thoughts? Well, first, your "definition" of RPGs. Your ideal is really about story as well, but you're looking for an open-ended affair. Rather than turning pages in a book to see what happens next, your looking for a chapter or two of background and then blank pages. Not a bad ideal at all, but most gamers (myself included) will lack the desire and creativity to fill blank page after blank page. As for how you'd reflect the world's affect on the avatar, I still think you'd end up with some sort of ranking system. It could be nice and rigid (essentially a level system), it could be a matrix (different levels with different powers), or it could be strictly titles with no real affect on the avatar beyond acknowledging that something is different (like our forum titles).
Sorry for the length, and the "deep thoughts".
Well said! However, I don't think that a more open-ended affair would neccessarily have the player generating stuff from blank pages; it would be more manipulation of the content of the pages (the world) to suit the player. That would be how the player influences the world. As for the world influencing the avatar, I think that a relationship system with assorted privileges, followers, equipment, and access to newer and cooler things and KNOWLEDGE could satisfy the power development of your avatar (instead of EXP and levels). Privileges could include being able to sleep in any dwelling that belongs to so and so kingdom (and the farmers must feed you  ). It could also mean that wiser people, who can give you hints about how to brew cool potions, or weaknesses of certain enemies. Also, reputation growth could mean that certain human enemies may feel fear when battling you (lowering their combat stats, may run away, etc). I guess that fits in with a sort of informal ranking system, but it would be of multiple scales (multiple "factions", a la Wiz 8, but single persons could constitute their own faction, and certain groups belong to two or more groups: merchant guild of Pulpland belong to merchants and Pulpland). Your own power would mainly be in the equipment you have access to, and the knowledge you have (knowledge = ability to make items, like potions, etc. and the ability to know the weaknesses of creatures, and perhaps the ability to be able to USE certain items, such as a horse (increase attack, speed, AC, etc.)). And of course the story development of a character in this system would be quite varied, depending on what you do.
I'm just giving out a rough idea of an idea, but I'm sure developers who actually follow through on a game like this could refine it so that it does indeed have a good feeling of avatar affects world, and world affects avatar, and so that it does have a good sense of progression, in terms of story, relationship, and power.
- Wind |
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 1:50 am |
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