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txa1265
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 390
Location: Marlborough, MA USA |
I think we're drifting back to the AAA titles and the more generic discussion, rather than the deeper point I found in Dhruin's original post. We all know that RPG's in general take much longer than other genres to make because of the basic tenet of *choice*. We also know that even at best, RPG's are below 2 or 3 other genres in terms of sales. And the more interesting and deep games seem to have immediately limited audiences - BG may be 'mainstream', but Bloodlines is not.
But the issue is second tier games, ones where you don't need 500,000 copies to sell to hit break even. Think about it - his examples of Gothic & DivDin are perfect, as neither are 'perfect', yet both are really excellent games and most of us drool at the thought of something like that. How do we get more games like that, and fewer like Neuro Hunter or Restricted Area? More like Heretic Kingdoms or Jeff Vogel's stuff? Games that say - we're going to sacrifice 25% of what we might like to do, but do the rest *really*well!
So many of us say - build those games, and we'll buy them. But it seems that the publishers say 'well, Mike, we got you to buy Dungeon Lords, MetalHeart, Restricted Area et al ... why should we bother making better games?' The answer is that I'm part of that small desperate-for-a-good-rpg-with-more-dollars-than-sense crowd ... with good games they could get a *real* audience.
Mike
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Sun Feb 05, 2006 6:47 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
Great article and great points. I think you had one glearing obmission though. Hammer and Sickle would articulate this.
I haven't seen any bugs at all. The game is pure gold. Translation is good, or as good as divdiv IMO. Great rpg. But reviewed like trash.
I think your obmission was blaiming just the publishers, and in part the developers, when a large part of the problem is the media as well as the players. For everyone who buys a crap game, there are 20 people that skip on a gem, or are unwilling to give it a try due to their lemming like mindset or their stupid gay valuation of what a good game is. The players are the ones who buy games based on how good the graphics are, and value graphics over game play.
The players are the ones who support and buy games with no depth or options, and who would rather have polish over substance.
In the end, the publishers will publish what the people buy, and will throw their money behind surer projects. And those surer projects, the less risky projects, will encompase all the attributes of a game that the vast majority of players value. And that isn't, in my opninion, what you or I value. Though our tastes are different and we probably disagree on a lot of games, we are more a like than we are similar to the gaming majorities.
The publishers are a scapegoat for the players. In my opnion, 75% to 90% of the blaim falls on the players shoulders.
But I love it. It is forcing all good development, the tier 3 or 4s, like Eschalon, AoD, Spiderweb, Ashes, grimore, etc., to cut the publishers out. giving me better and cheaper games. And more importantly, games that value what we value. Gameplay over graphics. Thinking over repetition. Innovation. Real rpgs, not some amalgamation of all the worst of all genres claiming to be an rpg.
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Last edited by Roqua on Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:17 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
@Hulk- I might give DWB a free pass on the DL fiasco if the exact same scenerio hadn't happened with his first game, Wizards and Warriors. W&W had a ton a promise but was released as a buggy mess. The patch took forever, and even a second (unofficial) patch failed to fix many game-breaking bugs. At the time, I hung Activision out to dry for pushing a game out the door 6 months before it was ready to go, but I decided to be careful with any DWB games in the future regardless of how much promise they seemed to have. Good thing. So, perhaps DWB is just a bad example of your point (which is certainly a valid point), but he seems to be the common thread between the two disasters.
As to the original thought, I'm beginning to wonder if the "new business model" will have the large houses generating graphic/gameplay engines which are then licensed to the indies to make finished games with. The games with "legs" these days are being released with developer tools. NWN, Morrowind, Dungeon Siege... All three games were good but not great from the designers--it was the modders that took the tools and ran with it. It's not too great of a leap to see the designer/modder relationship grow to a more formalized arrangement. The big boys get to sell a game and licenses; the indies with "a great idea" get a polished code framework for a headstart without as much investment.
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Sun Feb 05, 2006 7:41 pm |
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abbaon
Head Merchant
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 64
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
I imagine the sub-standard product part is obvious, so I assume you mean a publisher using those sales to assess the RPG market? No, I can't give you a specific example. That claim mostly comes from casual conversations I have had with a handful of Euro developers about finding publishers - but I can't give details. As a generalisation, I doubt games like Metal Heart showed good sales and publishers rely on heavily on historical sales data to predict sales.
Yes, but unless you have a single publisher that fails to invest in an RPG, which contributes to its poor sales, which leads to the publisher scaling back its RPG investment even further, you don't have a "cycle". You just have a few publishers poisoning the well for the rest of the development community. Although you don't even have that unless you can show that underfunding contributed significantly to the demise of the RPG. Do RPG B-titles receive less publisher investment than the B-titles of other genres? I agree with your editorial: a little more publisher attention would do wonders for Euro-RPGs, and would probably pay for itself in improved sales. I wouldn't have replied if you'd stuck with what could or should be. But you ended with an assertion of what is, and you really needed to back it up with facts. |
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Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:00 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
I think your obmission was blaiming just the publishers, and in part the developers, when a large part of the problem is the media as well as the players.
Yes, this is a valid point overall - although I wasn't trying to address the whole RPG market. I have been trying to clear up our database recently, finding a bunch of Euro and Russian games that just never made the English market. It left me pondering how a game like Metal Heart gets a publisher before Space Rangers 2.
It *is*, of course, possible that it simply comes down to which developers are easier to negotiate a contract with but I don't think that fits the overall picture I see.
So, for this article, I just wanted to address the decent games that get ignored, the *potentially* good games that don't get any assistance to realise that potential -- and the dreck that somehow does get released instead.
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Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:10 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
That criticism is fair enough, Abbaon. The information I have is annecdotal, so it will just have to stand as an opinion at this point.
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Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:19 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
I think your obmission was blaiming just the publishers, and in part the developers, when a large part of the problem is the media as well as the players.
Yes, this is a valid point overall - although I wasn't trying to address the whole RPG market. I have been trying to clear up our database recently, finding a bunch of Euro and Russian games that just never made the English market. It left me pondering how a game like Metal Heart gets a publisher before Space Rangers 2.
It *is*, of course, possible that it simply comes down to which developers are easier to negotiate a contract with but I don't think that fits the overall picture I see.
So, for this article, I just wanted to address the decent games that get ignored, the *potentially* good games that don't get any assistance to realise that potential -- and the dreck that somehow does get released instead.
I see your point. But, besides Space Ranger 2, (I never played it but can always order it), I can honestly say that i am more than happy by the way things are. There hasn't been this many good (or what seem to be good) rpgs being made that I can remember. The crappy market is creating a large demand for good indie games, and the good indie games are being made (or tier 2 games). Look at Burgoise, that looks like a AAA title. I hope they don't get a publisher (or at least a NA one). Vault Dweller, a dev of AoD, said a publisher came to him and he turned him down. This is great, indie devs are turning publishers down. They are retaining creative control and are able to respond to our wants without the corporate red tape. We finally have our rpg market back. Finally a bunch of games to look forward to. I even have a list of games i want and can't afford.
And the AAA market is doing good for the mainstream fans. NWN 2, Kotor 3, Hellgate, Oblivion, Gothic 3, Rumors of Diablo 3, etc. Action game fans can move to the console completly soon, and crpg fans can have the indie devs with digital downloads. Everyone is happy. The garage devs are making money, the rpg fans are playing good rpgs. The mainstream get their games. Win-win situation for everyone.
The more the publishers screw up, the less tier 2 games being made, and the more indie games we get. And the more expensive the AAA titles get, the more they need the publishers, ha ha.
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Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:00 am |
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The Hulk
Avenger, Defender
Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 728
Location: Southeast U.S.A. |
quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
@Hulk- I might give DWB a free pass on the DL fiasco if the exact same scenerio hadn't happened with his first game, Wizards and Warriors. W&W had a ton a promise but was released as a buggy mess. The patch took forever, and even a second (unofficial) patch failed to fix many game-breaking bugs. At the time, I hung Activision out to dry for pushing a game out the door 6 months before it was ready to go, but I decided to be careful with any DWB games in the future regardless of how much promise they seemed to have. Good thing. So, perhaps DWB is just a bad example of your point (which is certainly a valid point), but he seems to be the common thread between the two disasters.
Actually, W&W was not his first game, Wizardry 5 was. Was that game a bug filled mess? If memory serves, it wasn't.
I admit W&W was buggy, but it was not in as bad shape as DL was. When W&W was patched, I was able to complete the game without any game stopping bugs interfering and I highly enjoyed it, despite the somewhat dated looking graphics. I enjoy mature rated rpg's like W&W (and BoD), just wish there were more of them.
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Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:05 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
Wiz5-7 weren't really DW's games, even if he was on the team. Those were Sirtech games. W&W was the virgin debut of Heuristic Park, which I suppose you could call DW's solo project. 
Don't remember which one it was, but one of the prestige class promotions was impossible to complete. And who could forget the uber-horse! I also thought there was supposed to be a game-breaker in the final "dungeon". I never got my game to make it that far without a CTD, so my info on that one is all secondhand.
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RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:04 am |
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The Hulk
Avenger, Defender
Joined: 19 Feb 2002
Posts: 728
Location: Southeast U.S.A. |
W&W DWB's solo project? I seriously doubt he made the game all by himself. Therefore, it could have been others on his team who were partially to blame.
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Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:09 am |
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txa1265
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 390
Location: Marlborough, MA USA |
quote:
Originally posted by The Hulk
W&W DWB's solo project? I seriously doubt he made the game all by himself. Therefore, it could have been others on his team who were partially to blame.
... feeding the tangent ...
If you spent any time around the DreamCatcher or Typhoon forums or read any of the preview materials, you'll realize that DWB is to Hueristic Park *much more* than Lucas is to Star Wars - in other words, *everything* that happened in the game either was done by him or had his approval.
Mike
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Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:27 am |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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Are publishers that important if you are targeting a hard-core, niche market? Self publishing seems to work well for many small indie projects, and I don't see why there couldn't be an intermediate level, too, i.e. a online-only publisher that can organize and promote niche targeted games at a competitive price. Steam has many enemies, but wouldn't something along those lines be a great platform to bundle and distribute low and medium budget games targeting a "fan audience"? |
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Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:57 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by The Hulk
W&W DWB's solo project? I seriously doubt he made the game all by himself. Therefore, it could have been others on his team who were partially to blame.
Sorry for the confusion--musical reference. Successful band; guy splits off to do his own thing (with the help of various studio musicians, this ain't a garage release ); odds are very high the solo release blows chunks because the band was better than any component member.
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=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:11 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
@GhanBuriGhan - I think they are (unfortunately). The number of indie projects that can self-publish is -- and arguably always will be -- very small. I'm a big proponent of digital delivery but it doesn't provide a way of financing all those great games that wouldn't exist without outside money. Unfortunately. Online publishers are interesting but why would they be any better than traditional publishers?
@All those arguing about DWB...Dreamcatcher has to take primary responsbility for shipping the product in a wholly unfinished and broken state. DWB is probably substantially responsible for it being in that unfinished state. To be honest, I can live with bugs. What I can't stand -- and is entirely DWB's fault as the designer -- is the pathetic core design. The character development system is novel but useless and the dialogue, quests and story range from juvenile to utterly mediocre. And there's no good reason for that - other than the realisation that he just can't really design.
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Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:34 am |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
@GhanBuriGhan - I think they are (unfortunately). The number of indie projects that can self-publish is -- and arguably always will be -- very small. I'm a big proponent of digital delivery but it doesn't provide a way of financing all those great games that wouldn't exist without outside money. Unfortunately. Online publishers are interesting but why would they be any better than traditional publishers?
Because of the low overhead costs? I am not into marketing, but I imagine that if a halfway professional "portal" that would cover the niche markets could establish itself, it would create low but reliable sales because it can target a worldwide dedicated niche following. Of course the budget that can be covered by that will be significantly lower than for AAA titles - but thats a given, there is no way a product for the niche market can create blockbuster sales (not normally, at least, although you may get the occasinal "El Mariachi" effect), so the production has to make do with lower budgets, too. I think with todays tools and resources its possible to create decent looking games on a buget, too. |
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Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:30 pm |
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