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Gotit
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
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I have started a char using bows.
I notice few things, and would be curious to know what tactics to use.
Damages:
Damages aren't like close combat weapons. Yes Dex is used to calculate the damage level but also the skill in the bow isn't used for compute a chance to do critical hit vs normal hit.
For bows, it's always critical hit or you don't hit. And the chance you hit or not is based on a fomula that varry depending of the range and the skill value.
Even at low skill level, when you shoot at close range, you hit mostly always and then do critical damages. It's quite a superiority vs close-combat weapons.
But like when you cast spells, if you get hit at the same time you shoot, your shoot is failed, at least you just lost an arrow. 
Parry and movements:
You don't have any parry unlike with close-combat weapons.
Chaining movements and shoot is a lot slower than when you use close-combat weapons. That makes quite static fights with bows.
Aiming:
You don't have to aim at all, except to aquire the target. Once the target is aquired you can shoot an enemy in your back, the chance to hit seems exactely the same.
Following this, when you are in shoot mode you cannot turn left/right unlike when you use close-combat weapon.
Very very strange, you aim with close-combat weapon but not with bow! That make even more static bow fighting.
You aquire automatically a new target but you must see it so it cannot be in your back. If that happen you should stop shoot mode, turn, aquire, restart shoot mode. Despite this, bows are a lot more powerfull than close-combat weapons agaisnt monsters like goblins
If you have a target, you can keep shoot mode and change target with strafe left/right keys. I haven't find any use of this during fights.
Special Tactics:
- Using high, yes quite obvious, still hard to apply because of low range even at a skill 34.
- Using water. It's the same principle than with close-combat, that makes monsters slower. But here the adventadge is even increased if they have a long path in water before to reach you. Additionaly movements with bows during fight is mostly useless so water isn't a disaventadge at all.
- Isolation : Still possible like when you use close combat weapon. But for many monsters it will be better to figth the group but from far than go closer to isolate. Also for some type of monsters it won't be usefull to isolate because it won't attract other monsters when you have to with a close combat weapon.
- Try find a right synchronization. One defence is like with close combat weapon, the attack. It seems that an attack placed at the right moment will stop the monster attack. That said, for now and compared to 2H weapons, I have hard time to use that appart by luck, I tend more try have the faster shoot rate possible without to think too much! 
That' all, any idea or comments? |
Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:22 pm |
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fragonard
Head Merchant
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 59
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Very good observations. I have just started my first dex character so I'm no expert but everything you say seems true according to my experiences so far. I trained 1H and bow to 29 and dex to 54 in chapter 1 and saved at that point to go either mage or merc. I first tried mage so I didn't train those anymore but found potions, tablets, etc to get to 49 1H, 39 bow and 81 dex in the addon world. The bow is such a good weapon that I haven't even used magic (ice lance) except against the orcs in the valley. This has turned out to be a very good strategy since it really conserves mana. Even a trip to the valley of mines was easy if you can avoid orcs. I think once the seekers are around, things may be different but I am surprised how powerful the bow is even at 39 skill. |
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Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:43 pm |
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Gotit
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
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Yes the bow seems to me very powerfull, I had the same feeling. But in fact it is only for some fights/oponents. For example I bet that orcs and elite orcs will take a long time before to dominate them with a bow. With the previous game as a mercenary with 2H, I had handle fights like against 4 elite orcs 2 shaman and few orcs at same time. Not sure what it will give with a bow.
Also it seems that sword protection and protection agaisn't bow can be very different for some monsters. I have this feeling with the goblins skeleton for example.
On the other side, bow is impressive against groups with monster a bit weaker than you. 2H fight is quite difficult a long time against a group of goblins or warrior goblins, but with bow it's quickly very easy. Also the various bandits are quite easier to get soon with bow but it helps to have a good close combat weapon to complete. |
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Sun Jan 15, 2006 9:31 pm |
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Gotit
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
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Hey nobody has any suggestion/remark/correction about this subject? 
Well few more quote:
- Protection with bow : I felt that you lost some protection when using a bow in comparison of using a close-combat weapon. In fact after various check it's not true.
- Backward parry doesn't work with bow : Backward is doing a very efficient parry with close-combat weapon, and against anything including animals unlike what is mentionned in the manual. But with bow that special parry doesn't work.
- Wargs hunt during chapter 1 : Bows isn't superior for any type of fight in comparison with close combat weapon. But sometimes with right tactics, it can be very efficient. Wargs are tough beast until you reach some level but with a bow and some fair skills there are few very fun Wargs hunt to do. The more funny is that it doesn't become the Wargs hunting you.  |
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Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:32 pm |
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fragonard
Head Merchant
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 59
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A few more comments: I've continued from my lv1 save as a merc and had a little trouble with the seekers in lv3 but it wasn't too bad. Once I got an 80 damage bow, I never used my sword again. Bow alone (with just a couple of skelleton scrolls) was plenty. I am now near the end of ch4, lv29 with the 160 damage bow and nothing can stop me. I had saved a bunch of scrolls for summoning demons and skelletons but haven't needed them; haven't even needed destroy undead. The only thing to worry about is groups closing in on you since you can't shoot if you're being constantly hit. The side benefit of high dex is that you can pickpocket anyone without risk for a lot of gold and XP.
Edit: Update. Now at the end of ch5 and it's actually getting boring; just aim in the general direction and it's dead, demons, dragons, whatever...I think I'm going to restart and do something else. |
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Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:31 pm |
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Gotit
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
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Quite interesting, thanks to quote the dex number 160 for now I had only 200 for reference. What was you bow skill levels for each chapter?
I don't see how you are using efficently summon with bow? I noticed with team fighting that it was dam tough to not hit team member when you use a bow.
I am in militia still chapter 2 mostly finished but not closed and has started NOTR part. Since some time, I stoped using the dex only path. I stop it at Dex 64 then 65, bow 34. I was using items increasing dex, to 80 then 90 when I got luck to find a dex amulet that are quite rare.
I stopped the bow path because of various reasons:
- Even with dex 90 killing only an orc with a bow is still dam tough without special placements.
- Fight with team are just not compatible to bow use. And using for those fun party only a weak sword skill isn't fun at all.
- That was my first militia play and perhaps the last so I realized it was not cool to not be able to use paladin swords.
- The master sword is much better than the Rapier because a bit more damages and much better range. But with no point on str, it was still quite hard or long to get many oponents like a single orc or for some duel.
- Only bow fights sometimes got me a little bored.
So I stopped, for now, learning more dex and bow skills and switch for now to str learning, still no powerup used in any field but few mana with mushrooms and life with potion find/bought and Daron blessing.
I am using different set of items depending of what I want to do:
- For thieve missions, I use the Leather armor, and items raising Dex to 90, I am mostly at max on this, only my belt is only +5 dex otherwise I think I found/bougth the best.
- For general hunting and exploring, I am using the militia heavy armor (sword and bow prot 70) and the dex item set for Dex 90. I am ready to use the master sword and with str 54, 59 and now 64 I can beat, for example, and Orc in a tough 1v1 or an already damaged Elite orc (like heath to 40%).
- When I see a fight mixing bow and sword I also use this set quoted above.
- For many fights that I see better with a sword including duels, I am using the militia heavy armor and the str set far to be optimised but already not that bad Amulet +10 str, 2 rings +3 str, Belt +10 str. With that set, beating an Orc is quite easy, still tough for an elite Orc, Kicking Bulco ass was fine since some time with this set and learned some str. I am using a bow hit 65 with my dex 65. I still use it for many cases even with this str set.
- Recently, I got the ring +10 1H that I am using with this sword set. With the master sword it raise my 1H skill to Fghter level without any LP use in this skill. Quite cool and worth the +3 str/damage lost.
It's definitely not an easy path and probably a path that fit better militia which seems get better armor sooner. But the main disaventadge I see in using Bow only is that bow is quite powefull if you dominate. But to take something quite stronger than you, in many cases bow is very far to reach strength of close range weapon.
In fact this bow only path makes you learn quite fast Bow skills to be able dominate your oponents. But the truth is that if you follow such a strict path with a 2H weapon for example and quickly invest to 2H skills you get more power and are able to manage better much more situations.
Mixing like I am doing is quite fun, I got great fights agaisnt orcs like 2 where you can find a postion where they can reah you but will talke time to succed and I started with bow and finished with sword. Or it's quite cool to use bow to quickly finish a pack of monsters you know you dominate. Or for some special bow use like sneak not far to a shadow beast to get it in 3 shots near enough so I don't miss a shot but a long time enough to let me shot 3 time, the time the beast get to wake up and start move to attack you. And can take sword and beat Bulco ass for example, without too much pain. Not to mention that thieves and sneeking is already fine.
Obviously it's an experimented path. You need already know quite well the game and be quite experimented in close combat fighting. Definitely a path to not choose for the first play but for replay it's interesting.
From the point above I think I'll go to 84 or even a little lower for str with LP only. For dex, I'll try also raise it to 84 with lp only but only after to have reach str target and started use some str powerup. I'll probably delay most 1H learning and will push back any bow learning to perhaps switch to xbow skill. |
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Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:29 pm |
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fragonard
Head Merchant
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 59
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I only used summoned skeletons in the addon section; they are great against stone guardians. At that point in the game I had only 80-90 dex so bows don't do much damage to guardians, but they don't do much damage to the skeletons either so no problem.
I had the master sword at the end of ch1 for the merc duels but never used it after that, no point, bow was stronger by ch2. The real turning point is getting dex to 110 with a 110 damage bow. Then you can take on seekers if you can keep your distance since by then you should have at least 50-60 bow skill.
The next milestone is 140 dex in early ch4; then orcs and dragon snappers are available. Dragon snappers are the toughest because of how they chain attacks but I was always able to find some high ground for a safe attack.
Dragons were surprisingly easy; by the 2nd dragon with 150 dex and 80 bow skill, you just run away until you're out of their AI range and fire away. You'll miss a lot but there is no risk at all. I killed the last 3 dragons without taking any damage. I did summon a demon for the last one because I was curious how it would work (it worked well) but it wasn't necessary.
The bow is definitely more practical than a sword. With 160 str and the dragonslayer for example, you have slightly more damage but if you have more than one opponent, you will take damage. In the couple of places where there are 5-7 dragonsnappers, I don't see how you can beat them in melee.
However, the down side is that by ch5 with 90 bow skill and 160-170 dex, there is nothing left to do except go through the motions. There's nothing left to work for and it's totally boring (assuming you've finished the game before). When I was able to clear out the monastery cellar without taking any damage at all, I decided to stop the game right there. I guess I'll try a 2h/str character just to work on my melee techniques, which aren't too good right now because I've only done magic and/or dex so far. |
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Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:26 pm |
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Gotit
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
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Thanks for all the details, very helpfull.
I still don't understand how you use skeletons and your bow without to hit them.
For duels, the bandits, you made them all with bow??
I am surprised you didn't tried ch6, begining of it could be some challenge with pack of orcs or lizardmen that there are in some places or few other thing.
For 2h you can easily get an overpowerfull char but that's always fun anyway. 2H kick ass but until you learn good technics you could find it a little weak in comparison with magic or even bow. |
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Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:21 pm |
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Gotit
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
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quote:
Originally posted by fragonard
...Dragon snappers are the toughest because of how they chain attacks but I was always able to find some high ground for a safe attack.
....
The bow is definitely more practical than a sword. With 160 str and the dragonslayer for example, you have slightly more damage but if you have more than one opponent, you will take damage. In the couple of places where there are 5-7 dragonsnappers, I don't see how you can beat them in melee.
5-7 at same time? I didn't get the chance to try that. At the end I had more than 1200 life (I made life potions) 197 sword protection, str 194 and 99% 2H skill but not sure I could get 7 or even 5 dragon snappers, I don't remember how much damage they was doing. During chapter 4 with already good stats but only a sword with 160 damages, less protection and significantly less life, I got easily a pack of three. With biff we get 4 with 2 or 3 snappers and another pack with about the same number.
That said, I got 4 elites 2 chaman and few orcs at same time during chapter 6, and 8 lizardmen but that was more easy. Not sure what you do with bow against such a pack.
About getting a pack of dragon snappers:
- If you found a high that they take time to reach then this can be used with melee anyway and then you could get 7 at same time, but not really you'll get them in a row or per smaller packs.
- When you backward with a sword in hand, even a dragon snapper cannot do any damages. The problem is that they are so fast that they easily go at your back or has an hit rate that let you no time to hit them without to be hit. So if 3 was easy, not sure at all that 5 or 7 was doable.
- Using a few heal scroll for few special fights is always a good option with close combat.
- The truth is you easily isolate dragon snappers, it's not a disaventadge with close combat, it's fast and can be done in a row. Get a pack is just for fun.
The point is perhaps that with close range, and isolation you can get much sonner with much lower skills a pack of 7 dragon snappers.
Last edited by Gotit on Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:42 pm |
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fragonard
Head Merchant
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 59
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About the skeletons: I only needed them when my dex was below 110 and had an 80 damage bow. Skeletons have such high arrow resistance that you can hit them and they won't be damaged with an 80 damage bow.
I just killed the bandits by running away and then shooting them from a safe distance. The only one that was trouble was Esteban but you can run away and jump up on the wall and pick off the bodyguards.
On ch6, you're probably right. I saved the game and maybe I'll continue when I get bored with the next one. 
I started a 2H character but I'm having trouble with the controls. I've tried both the default and the new method but I don't see much difference. Maybe the problem is changing the .ini without starting a new game? What controls are you using? |
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Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:47 pm |
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Gotit
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
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I strongly advise you to use gothic 1 controls and not the new controls. I think that you can go in the options pannel and set that even if you changed the .ini file. It's like I did and I also changed the .ini file for some other settings.
It's not easy, it takes time to learn. I still have a lot of improving fields like improving chained parry/attack, learn parry agaisnt a dragon, and so on.
You need pratice a little just to hit if you never really did it but soon you have to learn parry. For that and for a long time you could forget parry and try learn use a lot but only backward wich also does a parry. And from that improving your learning of enemies attack to come and your chaining of backward parry and counter attack, to attack just when your oponent starts its attack this willbreak his attack, to chain better attack and backward parry. Also try later to learn double counter attack, moving yourself the mouse to anticipate target movements, to learn use range of your waepon (take care range can varry a lot from one weapon to another).
If you master all of that you'll already rule but there's probably more like learning to do blind parry counter attack, jumps and runs used efficiently, to backward just a little to let oponent hit the void and then chain with double or tripple counter attack, to use obstacle in your back to backward parry and get no damages and find a little hole to place an attack, perhaps even to do jump attacks, and so on.
EDIT : I mostly forget, as a close combat only char, never forget to use any help you can found, team combat are a lot more subtil and open many new possibilities, and are even more fun. |
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Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:04 pm |
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Gotit
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
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In fact summon mage is perhaps the easier and more fun way to do first steps into intense close-combat but as you already did a mage, that could not apply. |
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Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:19 pm |
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fragonard
Head Merchant
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 59
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OK, thanks for the advice. I guess this will be my next project. |
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Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:21 pm |
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