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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
Wow, how did yall know i was going to bash the RPG's of yesteryear?
Not necessarily bash, but maybe a slight thud. For me, half the old titles dont run on a newer machine. And the ones that i do get to run, after about ten minutes im thinking "What the hell is this? This SuCKS!". Ive got better things to do then waste my time on something that looks like it should be on an Atari 2600 cartridge. Im sorry, call me superficial, but i need good graphics to keep me interested. Give me some action with a side of blood. A "engaging storyline" is a hard thing to come by when the game just looks so utterly bad. Ill take a template "bad guy takes your girl", "Bad guys come into town of peace loving vegans and wipes them out", or "Here is your end final goal, make a good character and go for it" story, just give me some good graphics and a healthy dose of violence. If i want a nice story, Ill read a book. Whenever I played pen and paper D&D, alot of the time was spent mapping, battling, killing and being killed. Not trying to write a friggen novel! Go dig up "Lure of the Temptress" or som other crusty old title and play it for about 45 mins, then tell me that its alot more fun than NWN, Morrowind, or any of the other newer RPg's that people love to bash.
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“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
Tue Nov 19, 2002 4:46 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Why Sammy, you're positively superficial and proud of it. 
At least you're honest. I can respect that.
Personally, I don't care much about graphics. Of course, I still fire up my old computer to play the old Ultimas and other favorites. Is the golden age of RPG goodness over? Doubtful. Have there been improvements over the first RPGs? Definately and not just in graphics. Look at Gothic. The NPCs were great. I can't wait to see what good things have been added to the sequel. As GhanBuriGhan mentioned, editors and multiplayer have added a lot. The working DM capabilities of NWN alone has opened a door that has long been dreamed of, table-top gaming brought to computer-life and it actually works!
Frankly, I think the future looks bright. 
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
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Tue Nov 19, 2002 5:34 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
The future is definitely bright! There will always be good and bad examples of gaming, but new technologies open new doors and possibilities. There are many classic old games but I think we see a lot of them with the fondness of nostalgia.
When a new game gets things right (yes, it may not happen all that often), modern graphics, sound and systems performance are capable of adding a level of immersion an old game can't achieve. |
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Tue Nov 19, 2002 6:44 am |
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aj142
Village Dweller
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 18
Location: LA |
quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
quote:
It's been said many times that Ultima I was a groundbreaking game. I've also heard the same said about Xenogears. Did you ever play that?
Nope.
Really? That surprises me for some reason. Well, I don't know so much about Ultima, but I agree with any statement that Xenogears is an exceptional RPG. You should try it before Xenosaga comes out - actually, you could do it the other way around because Xenosaga is the prequel to Xenogears (kinda like Episode 1 for Star Wars). |
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Tue Nov 19, 2002 7:24 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
I think Val is correct.
Earlier this year I replayed Worlds of Xeen, and while I really enjoyed the experience (I had forgotten how good they are) the experince system/character development pales in comparison to M&M6-9. Okay, 8 and 9 weren't all that great but the character development system is amoung the best I've ever enjoyed.
Additionally, NPC are much more complex in starting about 1997 or so, and world factions (Wiz 8, M&M 7, and from what I understand Gothic) have an impact on the game play. Much more so than in the past.
As far as programming quality goes, NWN is a much better implementation of D&D 3rd ed than the Gold box games were of the 2nd edition rules.
And lastly, the tools available (think NWN here) are infinitly better than they had been (ie they exist at all, and (with some work) are VERY flexible). The NWN toolset could allow one to design a campaign in which no experience is gained for killing, only for completing goals.
So I would say the trends are very positive. As some one else (Michael C?) pointed out earlier, there are always clunker games ... we just don't remember the POR2's from 10 years ago. Why would you?
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=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Just plain clueless= |
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Tue Nov 19, 2002 7:37 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Lintra
Additionally, NPC are much more complex in starting about 1997 or so, and world factions (Wiz 8, M&M 7, and from what I understand Gothic) have an impact on the game play. Much more so than in the past.
What I presume you mean by saying "... world factions (...) have an impact on the game play." is that the character as he/she interacts with the world factions has a significant influence on the way the story runs. Is this correct? If so, please tell me how in Gothic (for instance) what the character does significantly influences anything that happens in the game (short of just refusing to make main plot decisions which is, of course, trivial). The story in Gothic (I loved the game anyway btw) is so linear and you are so forced into very strict decisions that nothing you do or say significantly influences the plot at all - much less the world factions.
As I recall Wiz 8 and virtually every other CRPG, the same holds true. Most players certainly WANT to be able to influence the plot - but we don't (again except by simply not participating at all). But please - tell me how in any significant way the character of any of these games influences plot development and outcome.
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Tue Nov 19, 2002 8:02 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
@Joey - In Wiz8 (as far as I can tell) the player has to worry about faction politics (remember I am only in the start of the game so forgive me if I misunderstand some of the hints I am being given). It seems that to achieve certain goals in certain ways one must get various parties to accept you as an "ally" or general good guy. And to please one party you might very well have to piss off an other.
I don't know about Gothic. I've not played it, but it seems that the choice of what faction you join or ally with changes the way the other faction(s) react to you and how you play out the rest of the game.
M&M 7 had the choise of light and dark. In the Fallout 2 (again if memory serves correctly) your interaction with the shady folks of New Reno was totally flavored by your reputation.
The first (and one of the best) manifestations of this concept was in Darklands where your reputation varied from city to city based on what you had done, and where you had done it. This is now a much more common theme than it had been. Yes, Darklands did it a decade ago, but it was a good enough concept that it has now become common place and expanded upon .. to the betterment of any game that uses it.
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=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Just plain clueless= |
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Tue Nov 19, 2002 8:18 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
You want an example of a game where one can influence the outcome of the game? Geneforge. There are several factions and based on what you say and how you act, those factions will react accordingly. As for the ending? You can help various factions rise to power or crush them under your boot heel. You can join the opposition, take power for yourself, or stay true to your original goals. You can kill everyone you meet or befriend them. Whatever you choose, you just have to be ready to face the consequences, and no, the consquences are not plot breakers.
Geneforge was released earlier this year. Don't expect any fancy-shmacy Morrowind graphics, just better gameplay and plot. 
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Tue Nov 19, 2002 8:20 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Lintra
@Joey - In Wiz8 (as far as I can tell) the player has to worry about faction politics (remember I am only in the start of the game so forgive me if I misunderstand some of the hints I am being given). It seems that to achieve certain goals in certain ways one must get various parties to accept you as an "ally" or general good guy. And to please one party you might very well have to piss off an other.
In a very limited way, yes - but very, very limited. And your choices don't affect the general outcome of the story or any main events in any way.
quote:
I don't know about Gothic. I've not played it, but it seems that the choice of what faction you join or ally with changes the way the other faction(s) react to you and how you play out the rest of the game.
Nope. I played all of them and the story proceeds in precisely the same manner and you can (in fact must for most of them) do all the same things. Nothing of even a remote significance changes depending upon which group you align yourself with.
quote:
M&M 7 had the choise of light and dark.
And how did this really affect game play or story progression - again in any meaningful way? I don't recall any.
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Tue Nov 19, 2002 8:27 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
It is the illusion of effecting the story. If you choose the dark side in MM7 you have access to different spells and character classes - the difference are enough to totally change the flavor of all ensuing encounters. Yes the end is only bi-polar, but the game *feels* very different.
Same with fallout - the game *feels* different. I've not tried MW yet, how does that stack up?
I wish I had more time today to persue this ... because I really feel that the "good" games of recent times (>1996 ) are as good as if not better than the earlier ones when measured fairly.
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=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Just plain clueless= |
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Tue Nov 19, 2002 8:32 pm |
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goshuto
Wanderer
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1142
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I'm hearing Val say so many good things about Geneforge that I'm tempted to download the demo just to see this game. 
About the discussion regarding old RPGs, I believe it all boils down to player style. If one likes to bash/crush/smack, then recent games certainly are perfect. If, on the other hand, you're more of the "roleplayer" type, who only likes occasional combat (or a lot, but only if the character is a fighter), then perhaps the relative freedom allowed by older games appeal to us more. (and I consider Fallout & BG1 to be older games; they came out approx. five years ago) With older games, it was a matter of "what shall I do next?" instead of "what does the designer wants me to do next, besides looking at pretty graphics?" Yes, I'm exxagerating, but you know what I mean.
edit: and that's not to say that there aren't good new games. There are, and plenty of them; Gothic and Arcanum are examples.
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"Tree stuck in cat. Firemen baffled."--Simcity 3K
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."--Soren Aabye Kierkegaard |
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Tue Nov 19, 2002 8:39 pm |
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DevilsBane
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 13 Nov 2002
Posts: 39
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quote:
Originally posted by GhanBuriGhan
Nostalgia confuses the view of many people (especially the more bitter ones among you, you know who you are )
Games like NWN, Arx, Divine Divinity, Gothic or Morrowind were impossible a few years ago, rank among my best gaming experiences in 14 years of gaming and I for one am thankful for what we get these days - I think it's been one of the best years in CRPG history and the next few years will be a lot harder - until the next boom.
I disagree.
I have NO nostalgia at all, I never played any of the old CRPGs , I was a strickt FPS player, with some strategy games thrown in to occupy the mide (something FPS genre mainly lacks)
Over all I would say MOST games are not great, and only that very few ever have enough love and care given to them , the result is a few great games among an army of $$$ making average ones
Any way, on CRPGs I started with Never Winter Nights.... which I really enjoyed, now this was because it looked nice, and played so much more deeply and complexly that the genre I play most FPS (which has become stale thats why I went looking for something new).
After I completed NWN, I played Morrowind, which was nice, but got a little slow and the NPCs didnt have much going on. It lacked the immersion and the pathing AI was just terrible. BUT again I enjoyed it...
Ok NOW I am playing Baldurs Gate II, a game I just bought for £6 on the recommendations of many people here too, and I can safely say everything they said about it is true. BG II is GREAT, it has the depth and longevity and touches of care and detail that most games never come close to.
I can safely say stuff graphics, you give me a choice of Baldurs Gate III on the Infinity engine still, or NWN 2 or Morrowind 2, I would take BG III without ANY hestiation and I know it would be worth every penny
The game has depth, and plot, and humour and tactics, and skill, and imagination and just countless hours of fun oozing from its box!!!
So whereas I once would have said that the move to the modern 3D CRPGs was great....having now played BG II I changed my mind. Its ten times better than both NWN and Morrowind combined. There is probably more dialogue and character work in BG II than in BOTH of those others.
Thats not a nostalgic view, it just an honest one. The ONLY game out in recent time which has been as captivating and trully imersive as BG II for me would be Deus Ex...again it had depth and character and diversity...something most others seem to lack.
I am a little sad that they stopped using the Infinity Engine now, because I think its STILL good enough to provide an awesome game.
Lets face it, maybe its 2D but the detail and diversity of the backdrops is immense. Theres no way the Aurora engine, or any other 3d engine game will be able to provide the amount of unique locations in such detail, so in that sense the Infinity is probably BETTER
I mean NWN for all its prettiness was just Wood, town, wood , town, cave, wood . Morrowind was nicer, but that came at the expenxe of performance, AI, NPCs and dialogue and enjoyment I feel.
BG II doesn't feel dated to me at all, I started it and its kept me hooked ever since. I just got the Throne of Bhaal now, which I fuklly intend to play after I complete this one, and then I guess I will play BG original after that |
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Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:02 pm |
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aj142
Village Dweller
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 18
Location: LA |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
The future is definitely bright!
Well, like I said... Xenosaga is almost out - that's bright enough for me! (I just take it one game at a time... as long as I've got something to look forward to, I'm sound as a pound) |
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Wed Nov 20, 2002 7:48 pm |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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Well, for one (like someone else stated similarly above) I would consider Baldurs Gate II as being part of (or at least very close to) the same era as the more recent games you cited - The infinity engine starts to look a bit aged now, but there are still games being released that fall in the same category (Divine Divinity, IWDII) - the gap between any of those games and the examples I have later cited (Bards Tale, Ultima VII) should be apparent and in my opinion DOES make a difference - To their credit, the best of these games are still playable and enjoyable today - which proves that Graphics isn't everything, not nearly the most important thing, but I maintain that good graphics (plus sound, plus faster calcualtion used for other stuff) help. It may be my particular view on what I expect from these games, but ultimately I want them to give me the perfect illusion of being part of a fantasy world - modern technology simply comes closer to allowing this illusion.
As to BG versus other games you name - well different strokes for different people - I just happened to like other games more than the BG series which may have any number of reasons (I dont like D&D rules much, I prefer first person over isometric, etc.) - But that doesnt change the fact that all of these games take advantage of modern technology to present their content. |
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Wed Nov 20, 2002 8:21 pm |
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