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netloss
Village Dweller
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Posts: 19
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If you're considering buying Oblivion, my take is: You probably should, because it does some things that no other game series does. The world size and scope cannot be matched. However, it is very much an enhanced Morrowind, not an original title. Not as much has changed as you might think.
I find the game to be not as compelling as Morrowind, and frankly, a lot of it boils down to one simple thing. If this thing were changed I would be much more interested in playing. What, you may ask, is this thing? It is difficulty scaling.
If you enter a dungeon at Level 1, you will encounter, say, a bunch of bandits. They will all be easy to kill and be carrying junk. That's right - junk. Uninteresting stuff. Now, if you avoid that dungeon and come back later when you are level 10, the same bandits are there, but now they are wearing killer gear and have worthwhile loot.
This is not fun. A great deal of the sense of fun in a game is the knowledge that anything can happen. In Gothic, if I'm first level, just about anything can kill me - and that's exciting. If I manage to kill something tough, I feel a genuine sense of accomplishment. I will also be rewarded by getting some killer loot, which is a real incentive to try to kill monsters that are tougher than me, using inventive tactics.
On the other hand, Oblivion's system takes away all that fun and excitement. Is there a killer beast in the cave? No there is not. There will only be a beast which is similar in level to me, and therefore not very dangerous. When I kill the beast, will it have cool and interesting treasure? No, it will not. It will only have items from a predetermined list that matches my current level. This reduces the world to a very bland place, where nothing is particularly dangerous, and no loot is particularly exciting. Blah.
The most ridiculous examples happen with guild quests and promotions. It is possible to become master of the arena at level 1 or 2, because all arena opponents will scale to your level. Think of it: a fresh-faced level 1 character steps out of the intro dungeon, and into the arena, the pinnacle of fighting - and defeats all comers without ever gaining a level. Preposterous, and completely shattering all sense of reality.
A somewhat smaller annoyance - but not by much - is that the leveling system is still backwards. You are still rewarded by making your most-used skills your "minor" skills. If you do the logical thing and give your fighter Blade skill and Heavy Armor skill, for example, you will accidentally level too fast and get poor skill bonuses. This forces you to either be extremely meticuolous - doing nonsensical things like giving your fighter a bunch of magic skills for his primaries, and then doing repetitive things to build up your bonuses - or resign yourself to having a character that will be about 1/4 the strength of a character that is meticulously power-leveled. One can argue that the system has its merits, but anytime your *best* strategy (by far) is to give your mage Blade, Heavy Armor, and Block skills, and leave all his magic skills as "minors", there's something horribly wrong.
The game also has a lot of good features, but most of them were already incorporated in Morrowind. The new features that are most intriguing are nullified by the game's own design. Horses? Very cool, yet totally unnecessary because of quick travel. In fact, having a horse takes *more time* than not, because if you want to bring it with you, you need to quick travel to the stables where it is, grab it, then quick-travel to the new place. It's one less step (and one less loading screen) to not bother with a horse at all! If you plan to never use quick travel, horses are useful. Otherwise, they are more trouble than they're worth.
But for me, it all comes back to that difficulty scaling. The knowledge that I will never encounter any creature or item that I'm not "supposed" to really sucks all the adventure right out. It might or might not be prohibitively difficult to create a mod that would "lock" all creature toughness and loot at a certain level, thus putting some challenge and excitement back into the game. However, such a mod is likely to introduce its own problems. I am very dissapointed that Bethesda made this design decision, and hope that some enterprising modder can take steps to particully fix it. |
Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:30 am |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
Very good points on the difficulty scaling. |
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Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:07 am |
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Zakhal
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 188
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Difficulty scaling sound like just another enginerd invention. They think it so neat that they forget the basics of gameplay while implementing it.
Dynamic > Static is not always true. |
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Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:00 am |
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netloss
Village Dweller
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Posts: 19
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I think they scale difficulty to prevent player frustration. They believe that players get frustrated when they get mauled, so they scale everything to the player's level in hopes of making everything manageable. They don't realize that in doing so they remove a lot of the thrill and excitement.
They're forgetting that some of the most popular games ever are *hard*. Ever try to play Gran Turismo? You have to play some of those races over and over and over, and it's the difficulty that makes you want to come back for more.
The in-game compass arrow is the same thing. They don't want you to get frustrated looking for someone, so they have an arrow that tells you where to go at all times. I realize that someone has already released a mod removing the arrow, but... really it should not be there in the first place. I feel like I'm being led around by the nose. It occurs to me: Why am I even playing? So much is being done for me by the game, why am I needed? They should just take the next step and let the game play itself, like a screensaver. I can let it run for a few days, let it beat itself, and then pat myself on the back for a job well done. 
As I said, there seems to be talk of a mod to help with the scaling, and I sincerely hope it happens. |
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Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:28 am |
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dr who
Village Dweller
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 22
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was the compass not a bit of an oversight on the part of Bethesda whereby they were hoping that it would give the players a sense of direction rather than us getting totally lost in the wilderness?
Sure, some of us really don't have an issue with just meandering and stumbling upon hidden treasures etc. but maybe a lot of gamers prefer a sense of 'go there and do that' ? Personally I prefer the former as that is what a traditional RPG is in my eyes.
Just a thought, but was the compass a major issue raised with Morrowind players that Bethesda felt that they needed to implement it? |
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Fri Mar 24, 2006 10:15 am |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
quote:
Originally posted by dr who
Just a thought, but was the compass a major issue raised with Morrowind players that Bethesda felt that they needed to implement it?
I think players rather objected about the Morrowind not being really story driven, being to freeform. That is not the same thing as compass :]. |
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Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:06 am |
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dr who
Village Dweller
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 22
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but that is my point, was there really a crying out for a compass? freeform is what an rpg is all about is it not? |
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Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:16 am |
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netloss
Village Dweller
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Posts: 19
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Might have been. Since there's already a mod to disable the compass, I see it as a relatively minor issue compared to the others. |
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Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:09 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
I actually think the reason for the difficulty scaling is the exact opposite: not to be make is easier to make sure the game scales in difficulty.
MW was a cakewalk. I had Glass armour and Daedric gear by level 6 or 7? and by about 12 I was a God that nothing could match. Absolutely no challenge whatsoever.
I'm also not sure it's as straighforward as you say - the area designers have specific control over whether the creatures scale and how far, so they can easily design a dungeon to stay "hard" or "easy" throughout the entire game, if they choose to. I haven't played enough to say whether they have done a good or bad job with this.
I think the compass is pretty unobtrusive, to be honest. Apart from orienting myself N,S,E,W, I don't think I've looked at it once.
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Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:50 pm |
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NidPuterGuy
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 237
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That's what's cool about Morrowind though.. That you can get powerful armor at low levels. But it doesn't happen normally. If you don't sell stuff to the creeper or the crab you won't have enough money to buy it for a long time. Also if this is your first run through the game you won't know where to get that armor. Morrowind is great because you don't have to exploit the game but the oppurtunity exists if you want to. |
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:27 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
Hmm...I didn't exploit anything, I don't think. It didn't take long to kill Daedra who were equipped with all sorts of incredible gear that completely unbalanced the game for me. I didn't need to know where to get it - it wasn't hard finding Daedric ruins. I don't know who the crab is. 
I take your point but I think this is a better system.
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:04 am |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
quote:
Originally posted by netloss
I find the game to be not as compelling as Morrowind, and frankly, a lot of it boils down to one simple thing. If this thing were changed I would be much more interested in playing. What, you may ask, is this thing? It is difficulty scaling.
Well, I've gotten my head handed to me before down in some depths. True Ive only died once, but Ive almost died a couple other times stumbling upon this or that in the mountains, or down in some caves. Luckily I had some potions and a bit of mana, and ran like hell. Btw, mobs chase you quite a long way! Had I not fled, I would have certainly died, I have no doubt about that.
My advice for you is to crank up the difficulty if you feel the game is too lenient on you, there is a slider where you can crank that sucker up quite a bit, we start at 50% for the default.
I dont have a problem with the compass at all, in fact I love it, I was dying for a compass in MW. Mind you Im saying the compass itself, I do not like the red marker beckoning me to my objective. There's an easy enough solution for that, make sure the quest youre on is not the "current quest".
This will eliminate the red newb marker's relevance altogether.
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“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:50 am |
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XmirroR
Village Leader
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 89
Location: South CA USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Zakhal
Dynamic > Static is not always true.
I wish I could have said that...
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:55 am |
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XmirroR
Village Leader
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 89
Location: South CA USA |
quote:
Originally posted by netloss
Ever try to play Gran Turismo? You have to play some of those races over and over and over, and it's the difficulty that makes you want to come back for more.
I am posting again already... I am not trying to hijack this thread, tho I do enjoy using the word hijack in complete sentences. Er, um....
What I was gonna say... I never played 'Gran Turismo', but I did play SW-KotOR, and the racing mini games while not plot stopping were a b*tch. And in the original game frustrated me so much I never finished it. The sequel I just avoided the mini games entirely. I am left hanging with the thought 'just how much did I miss because my skill as tweak-gamer is poor'.
One way a developer coud have appeased me, would have been after three failed attemps to let me just see the plot-line advance without winning the eFing race. For all I know it didn't even affect the plot. I finished KotOR2 without the minigames and live with the presumed justification that I didn't miss much.
Oblivion on the otherhand and Bethesda in general, seems to feel that difficulty is based on percentage hitpoints, and percentage damage I can do in combat. That's not difficulty, that's more of the same repetitive BS before I can move to the next quest.
I am so frustrated my ears are leaking brain matter. And perhaps I should vent in a different thread. But my frustration is deeply felt, since so many of the Morrowind enthustiasts went to such trouble to A> make a boring game more interesting B> left a road map on how to make a boring game more interesting C> Devised incrediblly intelligent ways of making the Morrowind engine scale to the needs of the hardcore RPGer.
Oblivion does respect this by allowing for near complete customization of the game. And I am not about to tell a company that has done such good for the community that they are off the mark. But I think they left too many expectations. The promise has not been achieved, but here with these tools you can go the last few steps. It feels like a dismissal of an over bearing father.
I complain way too much, and I know it. I am sorry. But my frustration isn't that the game doesn't live up to the hype. It's that the developers seem to have short-changed all of us. Because it could have ( lived up to the hype ). And now it is up to us.
Morrowind didn't sell 4 Million copies because it was the best game ever, it sold 4 Million copies because it was a MODDABLE RPG. I see no reason why Oblivion wont continue this trend.
Sorry for the rant,
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:30 am |
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Bopoxdren
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 11 Mar 2003
Posts: 41
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I'm not so sure about this difficulty scaling stuff. I was on the second Fighters Guild contract - my character being at lvl 3 or 4. I had to stay inside a certain building to watch for intruders. At around midnight three thieves appeared sneaking across the room. Game on... I died in a hail of iron and steal. And again. And again...
Also, at the arena, I have come to a point now where I simply cannot best a crazy, glass-hammer weilding orkish female... and I've tried many times. I simply must lvl up some more.
NOTE: On that Fighters Guild contract from above, I did manage to complete it by changing my strategy. (this pleased me very much) Just before I was about to give up and return to the quest later, I thought for a moment what was wrong with the situation. Problem was I was being cornered by these three and could not maneuver at all in the small space inside. I even tried the old RPG standby trick of standing in a doorway so that the bottleneck would allow me to fight one at a time. No dice! I decided to make for the door instead of engaging them right off and try to bring the fight outside: I summoned my Ancestral Guardian and then ran outside leaving him in there. After killing my Guardian the ruffians came out to engage me outside. I attempted a rather poor fighting retreat which dissolved into an all out route. I ran into the streets and found a few NPC who joined in the fight in my support. We killed the thieves and I completed the quest.
Maybe it's just me, but I really enjoyed that quest machanic. |
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:20 pm |
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