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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
SOME SPOILERS - BUT LIGHT
I can almost say outright that the main quest is ruining things for me. Kavtch is such a borked quest - the Gate closing is great but the liberation is so screwed. The NPC's ruin the quest by dying instantly and leaving you holding the bag. Everywhere I go now (on the main quest) a minor gate appears. I'm always compelled to close them and its getting really repetitive inside the Gates.
The worst part of Oblivion for me so far is any quest where you have to work with an NPC. It totally takes me out of the game since the AI is so poor. I can't really fight with them since Oblivion has multiple sword swings per click and I hit NPC's more often than not. In Kavtch I got a 1000 bounty for friendly fire kills. 
Anyway... I just enjoy the free exploration and smaller side quests better. But now that I've started the main quest I feel obligated to continue it? 
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"For Innos!" |
Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:43 pm |
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txa1265
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 390
Location: Marlborough, MA USA |
| Re: Sub Quests > Main Quest |
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quote:
Originally posted by ToddMcF2002
But now that I've started the main quest I feel obligated to continue it?
Therein lies your problem!
quote:
Originally posted by ToddMcF2002
I can almost say outright that the main quest is ruining things for me.
The main quest is inferior to the side-quests, but avoiding it too much gets you into the levelling nightmare ... so you have to alternate - have fun, do main quest, have fun, do main quest, etc ...
quote:
Originally posted by ToddMcF2002
The worst part of Oblivion for me so far is any quest where you have to work with an NPC. It totally takes me out of the game since the AI is so poor. I can't really fight with them since Oblivion has multiple sword swings per click and I hit NPC's more often than not. In Kavtch I got a 1000 bounty for friendly fire kills.
C'mon, you have to do the practice that is as old as gaming - die and retry ... or in this case, 'kill the moron who just walked into your fireball and reload your last save'
Mike
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Dopelar effect (n.) The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
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Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:10 pm |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
On the Die-Retry front - luckily the only rediculously difficult segment so far has been the liberation of Kvatch.
Part of the problem I have with this high level stuff is that I hate the current mix of monsters. I hate the Daedric Spider and the Stone Elemental thing. I can beat them, but I'm left with apparently unavoidably damaged attributes. The battles really arent fun because blocking is inneffective.
In contrast I love fighting the Daedric Lords, high level bandits, multiple Skeleton Champions etc. They are simply fun to fight since blocking is actually strategic and some of the opponents taunt you. I also like the "retrieve item" type quests like the great one you get in Burma.
This main quest stuff is to be tolerated at best.
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"For Innos!" |
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Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:18 pm |
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Wulf
The Shepherd
Joined: 20 Sep 2003
Posts: 2312
Location: North/West.England |
@ToddMcF2002
Some players are getting wrong viewpoints of the game possibly due to the style of play they are implementing (that's a polite way of saying maybe there is something not quite right with your approach to Oblivion gameplay) i don't wish to sound harsh but take your time, what's the rush? - make the game last for six months - realise the enjoyment!
I kept all of the Kvatch guards alive while doing both "the chapel" and then continuing with "finding the count" area, have also just completed the Bruma gate with all guards alive... never lost a man, i suppose the wisdom gained in my twenty years of rpg'ing does help somewhat, a clue? ............tactics! 
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Forever aches my wretched soul, for Chromanin locked in that dark hole, though crypted key i've yet to learn, he knows one day i will return. |
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Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:47 pm |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
The NPC's rush in and you can't stop them. They run to any creature they see and activate all creatures. Tactics? I employ tactics - but the NPC's are morons.
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"For Innos!" |
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Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:54 pm |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
I agree, NPC AI is moronic; I love how they run in front of my fireballs all the time!! 
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If God said it, then that settles it!
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Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:35 am |
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Majnun
Village Leader
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 89
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Tactics are irrelevant in Kvatch if you are above 15th level or so.
The guards there don't seem to level up (if they do lvl it doesn't help) and they will die with just a few hits from daedroths, etc. The worst part is the fact that they won't stay near you and attack the nearest enemies. As soon as they enter the area they charge off in various directions drawing the attention of every daedra on the map fairly quickly. So, even if YOU use tactics, they do NOT and will be dead soon since they are now fighting ALL of the map instead of a few at a time. Stupid and highly annoying. The Bruma gate guards are a little easier to keep alive...but only because the map is fairly linear so they can't run off getting multiple enemies on them. And they are still stupid and will stand next to a plant while it kills them...
Luckily Kvatch is the worst part of the game for that. I'd advise anybody to always go straight to Kvatch after leaving the sewers. Liberate Kvatch and get it over with, then take the rest of the main quest at your own pace.
You're killing yourself with pointless repetition by entering and closing ALL of those Oblivion gates you find though. They will almost all respawn. The only one's that will not respawn are the Major gates near the cities. Closing them is part of the Allies for Bruma quest and are neccessary to get aid (npc's that help defend Bruma) from each town (not including Imp City). As non-rp as it may be...you're better off ignoring all those other gates (unless you just enjoy doing the same thing over and over).
I agree about the main quest. The free-roaming and side quest parts of the game are much more fun. I doubt I'll bother starting the main quest at all with future characters. I'll just pretend someone *else* is working on that whole saving the world thing. |
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Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:17 am |
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bjon045
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 234
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I am pretty sure you only have to go to those oblivion pocket planes with sigil stones 3 times in the entire main story line(kvatch and bruma). If you find them boring just don't do them, you also don't have to do the allies for bruma quest. I would say the main storyline can be finished in under 5 hours if you do it that way. |
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Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:46 am |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
Majnun - your comments about the guards - that is exactly what I'm saying. I have to call BS on Wulf. I don't see how on earth he could keep them alive - despite the fact that he is a tactical specialist. I've played and finished Baldurs, Temple of Elemental Evil, Icewind Dale, Pool of Radiance etc. all tactical combat games. There just arent any tactics to employ at Kvatch.
I'm happy to be wrong however. Please enlighten us Wulf!
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"For Innos!" |
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Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:58 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
It *is* possible to save some of the guards.
Okay, so I did lose several of the Kvatch guards - the guy with the key and the elf, among others-, but several others plus all Imperial Watchmen are still alive to this day, the guy I saved back in Kvatch-Oblivion among them. I didn't manage to save them all, but I didn't try and reload, either.
I succeeded by being fast and a decent hitter (playing an assassin that tour around) - always jumped or shot the Daedric enemy before they jumped us, and then ran. We did several ring-a-roses; hit and run can be a lot of fun, even when there's a whole pack of Scampi and Clannfear behind you.
The liberation of Kvatch was the, what, second quest pack I did, and I was still level 3 or so after I was through.
The only CRPG involving tactics I actually liked and finished was JA2.
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Jaz |
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Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:09 pm |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
quote:
Originally posted by Jaz
It *is* possible to save some of the guards.
Okay, so I did lose several of the Kvatch guards - the guy with the key and the elf, among others-, but several others plus all Imperial Watchmen are still alive to this day, the guy I saved back in Kvatch-Oblivion among them. I didn't manage to save them all, but I didn't try and reload, either.
I succeeded by being fast and a decent hitter (playing an assassin that tour around) - always jumped or shot the Daedric enemy before they jumped us, and then ran. We did several ring-a-roses; hit and run can be a lot of fun, even when there's a whole pack of Scampi and Clannfear behind you.
The liberation of Kvatch was the, what, second quest pack I did, and I was still level 3 or so after I was through.
The only CRPG involving tactics I actually liked and finished was JA2.
NOW Waaaiiit a minute. What do you mean "we" did several ring-a-roses??? You don't expect me to believe the guards joined you in hit and run tactics do you? 
The only guards that lived through my assault were (some) of the archers becuase by definition they held back a bit. The keyholder went down. The guy inside the gate? How on earth did he live? Unless you told him to wait he should be dead. Are you saying you got to the Sigil Stone with that guard?
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"For Innos!" |
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Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:25 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
No, the guards didn't join me... the enemy did. I was doing my best to distract them so they wouldn't attack my pals, and most of them fell for the ruse.
Spoiler:
The guy inside the gate lived (and still lives), of course his disposition towards me is a straight 100. I didn't say it was easy, though... the only way to have him survive was - as you already said - to do the park-and-ride thing: park him and go scouting, clean out the biggest batch of enemies alone, return to get him, clean up the rest together, sleep for an hour, park him to go scouting etc. Took me two or three reloads to figure it out, though. Yes, this means we got to the sigil stone together, but mainly because it was my first Oblivion gate and I didn't know yet that he would get out along with me no matter where he was by the time I took the stone. So I went to great pains to make sure he was with me... I - as a player, not a character - just can't *not* help stranded NPCs.
Sure, so the NPC AI is stupidly brave, proven best by the
Spoiler:
Knights of the Thorn, or did anybody actually *not* have to prevent these boys (by using brute force and/or speed) from doing the voluntary lava dip?
By these standards, Dremora seem to be the most sensible folks in all of Cyrodiil - they, at least, have perfected the hit-and-run tactics, especially the Darth-Maul-lookalike casters. However, I do think it's a pity that the handsome, but stupidly brave Battlespire Dremora swapped their superb looks for brains.
Personally, I don't dislike friendly AI acting stupid because my masochistic do-gooder player self enjoys the challenge of trying to save them, but I see how this does aggravate other players.
By the way, did you ever try to go on an extended - if unplanned - hiking tour with an immortal NPC? I did... it was heaps of fun. Firstly, I got to see a nice stretch of land, and secondly, filling my pockets with what my aggro companion's victims left behind was a nice side effect.
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Jaz |
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Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:04 pm |
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ghola
City Guard
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 146
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My general strategy to protect NPCs is in being as fast as I possibly can and do lots of damage. I prefer a weapon with a fair health or elemental damage, but something like Umbra will work too. High damage will keep the critter in a recovery lock and because you inflict more damage to it than the guards do, it will change focus to you. Forget about blocking, take damage for opportunity (critter lock) and purpose (keep guard alive).
For positioning, preferably get at the critters tail (directly opposed to the guard) or simply jump in front of the guard. Aim your strikes low at the feet of the critter to avoid hitting those jumpy NPCs.
Also, remember that you can heal NPCs. Avoid going into battle with damaged NPCs. When they are hurt after battle, just find a quiet spot (retrace your steps) and wait an hour to fully heal them.
Well, at least that's what works pretty well for me, keeping most of the guards alive. Any other strategy tips? |
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Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:10 pm |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
I hate to be overly critical here - but all these strategies amount to the player absorbing as much of the combat as possible in order to keep the enemy away from the NPC "warriors" who are sure to die if they attempt to do their job. Its like a shepard protecting lambs.
If Bethesda had implemented a simple "protect me" command so the NPC's would simply disengage and follow when you disengage they would be infinately more effective. You could take a few melee fighters with you for hit and run and then draw your enemies towards your archers who you would set under the "wait here" command.
Really very simple. Heck NWN has these basic commands.
Oh well. Protect those lambs boys!
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"For Innos!" |
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Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:26 pm |
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Wulf
The Shepherd
Joined: 20 Sep 2003
Posts: 2312
Location: North/West.England |
@ToddMcF2002. sorry for the delay - (no email notifications!)
Re:
[I'm happy to be wrong however. Please enlighten us Wulf!]
....sure thing anything to help a fellow gamer. 
As always in the past, and like many true-grit rpg'rs, i make a save-game prior to the next "obvious encounter" - then i do a "take-1" to find all diversions of the scenario - as i did with Kvatch.
The first run in some ways is stupid - purposely getting killed and seeing what will happen, it only takes a couple of minutes. Then a second run, this time with some running around in the scenario only - no killing, a kind of rapid covert observer, obviously i noticed the carefree runnaround by the Kvatch guards but the atmosphere in the Kvatch attack is one of chaotic desperation and in that sense is a true representation of realism.
Forget slow time wasting blocking during incidents like this, i use the high marksman skill wood-elf the most adept archer in the game, it was the same with Daggerfall where i use no purposeful magic other than that in magically imbued weapons (this really does help as all skill is concentrated where it is needed - no wasting of assigned attributes) but contrary to common thinking that the earlier in the game the better - Kvatch at level ten is a "doddle" with magic bows (and with high bow skills of course)
Tactic 1.
Standing still for more than a few seconds is not helpful, you will be noticed by an opponent sooner, better to run - stop - aim - shoot, then quickly divert to another enemy, but it insn't quite that easy. Notice how you can strike an enemy that is already locked into combat with a guard, with stealth and run mode enabled you can get two or three shots at that target without them realising to seek who is shooting at them. It is essential at this point to leave that target you have attacked *still attacking the same guard* who will finish-off the same original attacker who is now thanks to you, almost dead, before moving onto the next - you are in fact not killing any enemies.
Tactic 2.
Speed is essential, you have to notice who needs help, the enemy that is firing fireballs from the wings is killing the guards as much as those locked in close combat, this is where you divert the opponent the most....then run!...you must aim and shoot with alarming alacrity and precision.
....it was all over in take number four with all men alive.
It's only for fun and a challenge i do this, in fact, so long as the main quest character stays alive and is quest essentially non-killable (re: menu, blah blah is unconcious)
.......................
For a trial-run for those players not fully used to the tactics, i suggest first to try the much easier "the wayward night" quest involving Farwil Indarys and his loyal buddy Bremman Senyan
as pictured below.
Give it a try, let me know if this helps.
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Forever aches my wretched soul, for Chromanin locked in that dark hole, though crypted key i've yet to learn, he knows one day i will return. |
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Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:15 pm |
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