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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
[edited, because I addressed bits to the wrong people  ]
@crpgnut: You might gat a kick out of Dark Messiah's spellcasting when it comes out - hard to say, it's a long way off and there are many balancing issues to go through, but judging by what's seen of the game so far and the developer's previous work on Arx Fatalis, it just might be a good one for magic lovers. Yes, it will be first-person and realtime, but it has some cool tricks up its sleeve. Playing a mage in Arx was riotous fun, and not difficult and complicated like it is in many RPGs, and it looks like DM will be similar. Some examples, from videos and previews so far, of how a mage "sidesteps" combat:
1. Freeze an orc; chuck him off a cliff.
2. Freeze an orc as he crosses a rope bridge, then break the rope supports and watch ugly fall and *smash* on the rocks below.
3. Telekinesis a pesky goblin away through a nearby window.
4. Ice spells again: cast an icy patch on the corner of a narrow ledge, so the orc chasing you slips on it and falls over the edge.
5. Shrink an orc to the size of a thimble, then step on him.
All of those have been implemented and shown in gameplay, so it looks like there's some fun in store 
@Gaidal Cain:I agree about fighting big insects and woodland creatures, I find it rather demeaning. It's long been a convention of RPGs I wish would be left behind, but it just keeps happening. Hunting is fine, but fighting for your life against slightly-larger-than-usual bats and slugs is just ridiculous. If it has to be there, the least they could do is scale and animate the damn things properly - see the big spider in the Return Of The King movie? That's how a giant arachnid should fight a humanoid opponent: rearing up, pouncing and retreating, thrashing with the forelegs - not by scampering up and nipping at the ankles, and staying put while axe-blows rain down on its back. And yes, scuttling floor-level creatures with basic animal intelligence should be an inconvenience to be stepped on or crushed with a rock, a danger only to the careless - not an opponent in a full-blown duel.
I'll never forget being killed by the first available enemy in Wasteland - I kid you not, it was a weasel or a badger, and I was armed with an automatic pistol. I know the game is well-loved, but that is utter nonsense. I just wish there was some modelling of real animal behaviour in most RPGs - real animals will not battle you toe-to-toe just because the opportunity is there. Many animals will flee if confronted with fire, loud noises or injury. Everything they do is driven by survival instincts, yet in RPGs they'll trot up to you and bite bite bite, stubbornly soaking up hits until one of you is dead. I kind of liked the territorial behaviour of some of the animals in Gothic, but they all still turned out to be psychotic killers, and some were ludicously overpowered.
Unfortunately, even my favourite RPG (Ultima Underworld) suffers from the old bug- and rat-killing introduction to combat. Will it ever go away? The single, best thing to come out of this convention is the multi-faceted first-person fly-eye view in Dungeon Keeper. The rest, I can live without 
Note to self: I must remember to try out Jade Empire - I get the feeling I'd quite like it, but for some reason I just keep forgetting about it.
Last edited by piln on Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:03 pm |
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cptmaxon
High Emperor
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 557
Location: Israel |
quote:
Originally posted by crpgnut
I'll ignore all the childish, you don't love my game so you're stupid posts and address the posts made by adults. I want to like Gothic, but as G. C. said, I'm a mage at heart and the world of Gothic has no place for mages. I imagine it might be one of the better non-mouse combat engines around but I'm not really a fan of combat unless it's tactical and turn-based. The reason I like Morrowind's combat better than Gothics is that it was easier to resolve quickly.
I was able to get on with what I like doing: collecting, exploring, questing, and didn't have to waste time dancing with monsters. Oblivion is now going to make combat much more like Gothic's so I really hoped they balanced magic better. I want to be able to fry, freeze, paraylze, electrocute, and filet my enemies quickly
that's just funny  , I play a mage usually as well and i can tell you taht playing a mage on gothic is quite frankly really really diffuclt, as it should be, magic shouldn't be readily aviable to anyone, you should work to learn magic , not just get it handed to you, it's hard ot play a mage yes, but as a mage my char had the easiest time at the later chapters, nothing like using rain of fire on 5 orcs and watching them drop..., you my friend obviusly didn't try hard enough....
Kain: yes you are right I forgot about the kobold bard, he was a good NPC, but one good NPC doesn't make up for a score of bad ones, in my opion, also dekin was included in the addons, so I didn't see him until the expansion... and the original campagin was kind of dumb, that is my opion at least...
as for more colorfull NPC, look at Diego, and Torlof, Lee, Gorn,pretty much all the ppl from the old colony, each had a unique story line ,and quests he gave, and they were all more then 1 dimensional.
in NWN , the original campaign you had to to lvl and then you got to hear thier stories, and it led to strong items(that's the only reason I listened to the babbling) the stories quite frankly were stupid(again my opion)
_________________
"We're still flying"
"it's not much"
"It's enough"
Last edited by cptmaxon on Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:41 pm |
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Paul999999
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 302
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Adult Posts? Thats why you're crying over a game a game you "love" im sure you're 16 at the most. What a crybaby no wonder Gothic is way beyond you and you dont deserve to play it any way stick with Never Winter Nights kiddies cant take when some one makes fun of there crappy game.
Look its crpgnut.
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Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:53 pm |
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Bartacus
Il Buono
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 4706
Location: Belgium Flemmish part |
Paul, I have reported your post to the mods. This can't be tolerated, imho, attacking the person itself is childish and I certainly expected better and more adult posting from 21y old. Perhaps crpgnut has an excuse of age, but you haven't.
Sidenote: This thread should be moved to the crpg's general forum now, cause we are discussing many rpg's here.
_________________
Moderator and Council Magician of the RPGDot Shadows
member of the Sports Fans Forum
Leader's Right Hand at the Gothic Rogues
NFG member |
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Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:36 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
Yes, that was a pretty embarassing display, but it's a testament to RPGDot how rarely that kind of thing happens around here.
@cptmaxon, I'm with you on Gothic's NPCs. The majority of RPG NPCs I've encountered in recent years have been wafer-thin - either human signposts or the most generic fantasy stereotypes - I didn't play much beyond the first chapter of NWN, but I recall the "good men who really turned out to be bad men" were so obvious, I honestly thought it must be a double-bluff. Sadly not. And not one other NPC stuck in my mind, but really I think that was indicative of the whole game - the plague gave things a oppressive feel, but other than that it felt like RPG-by-numbers to me. Routine and indifferent. I know nothing of NWN's expansions or multiplayer, though (except the fact that Witch's Wake wouldn't work for me, Grrr!  )
By contrast, Gothic's NPCs were great, as was it's whole gameworld. The edgy, paranoid feel of the towns was fantastic, always there but never overstated - I don't have a lot of love for most RPG writers (many of whom are not writers at all - this practise of designers, programmers, etc. writing stories and dialogue has to end!), notable exceptions being the old Black Isle and Looking Glass folks (and that really is about all) and I'm sure most "writers" would have totally blown the atmosphere of Gothic by overstating the danger present in the environment. But they got it spot-on - the characters came accross as having various different personalities, with the suggestion of constant threat that comes with this look-out-for-number-one existence, even from those characters you could consider friends. Not many teams could have pulled that off - mainly because they don't hire real writers!
I'm not with you on Gothic's magic, though. Sure, it could be super-powerful towards the end, and I used it myself at that stage, but the control method and timing were horrendous. And I don't buy this idea that magic should be difficult to begin with and powerful later in RPGs. Why? Because that's how it was in D&D? Having to work for a reward is great, but the "tradition" for magic-users bascially boils down to a game that's 75% chore, 25% fun, and that's not a great game. The problem is not that the early abilities are not powerful, but in most cases they're not even useful - the first few ranged magic spells you get in AD&D games, for example are good for nothing and you can only cast 2 or 3 before your character's usefulness is entirely gone for the day. Garbage. Tradition is one thing, but making a game that is punishingly difficult and devoid of enjoyment until you've completed at least half of it is just bone-headed design.
A warrior can always fight his way out of a bad situation when he's at death's door and stripped of weapons; a thief can always use his talents to hide from or evade danger even without tools. This is true in most RPGs, yet magic-users are continually given a raw deal - most RPGs adhere to the horrible notion that a natural ability should be governed by "ammo" (ie, magic points, spells per day, etc) which, when spent, leaves the character utterly defenseless and pointless; and in many, even a fully charged-up low level mage is woefully underpowered for much of the game. While this may be great for staunch traditionalists, for the rest of us it basically means we don't bother with characters who are primarily spellcasters - we want to enjoy the game, not chip away at it. I almost never bother, especially in D&D-based games, as I despise their magic system - except for PS:T, which for some reason really tipped the balance in favour of Nameless in mage form - but I did try out mage and fighter-mage types in Arx Fatalis and was delighted to find an organic and fair magic system that I wish was more commonplace - I had a blast using those abilities effectively in combat at all stages of the game, and didn't have to go to sleep after every 1-3 fights!  |
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Sun Oct 30, 2005 10:35 pm |
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crpgnut
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 197
Location: St. Louis |
I get a kick out of the Paul kid guys. He's harmless, so no reason to report him. We have a guy on Usenet that acts the same way. His name's Bateau. Personal attacks on anyone that doesn't believe exactly as he does. He's actually growing up now though and his posts are becoming more mature.
Arx Fatalis did have a fun magic system though it took a lot of getting used to. My main gripe with AF is that it was so linear that playing the game a second time would serve no purpose. I liked finding the hidden stuff in that game.
Someone suggested moving this thread. If any moderators moved every thread that strayed off topic, they'd have no time to anything else
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Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:45 pm |
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Paul999999
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 302
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quote:
Originally posted by Bartacus
Paul, I have reported your post to the mods. This can't be tolerated, imho, attacking the person itself is childish and I certainly expected better and more adult posting from 21y old. Perhaps crpgnut has an excuse of age, but you haven't.
Sidenote: This thread should be moved to the crpg's general forum now, cause we are discussing many rpg's here.
Oh no! I guess to be an adult here you gotta take these forums serious! no attacking! "attacking" hello this is the internet and to be an adult on these forums you must be over weight and wear glasses too?
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Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:56 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
lol, I suppose of you're going to get bashed by a mod, you might as well go hog wild!
quote:
Originally posted by crpgnut
Arx Fatalis did have a fun magic system though it took a lot of getting used to. My main gripe with AF is that it was so linear that playing the game a second time would serve no purpose. I liked finding the hidden stuff in that game.
Really? Just goes to show what a different bunch RPGers can be, as that is one of the few games (RPG or otherwise) I've replayed at all. True, the path of the story is the same every time, but the thing that drew me back was how different the gameplay was - playing as a fighter/mage, charging around striping goblins with my blade and setting whole rooms on fire was an absolute riot, while my stealthy archer played just like Thief - a totally different pace, and I was barely in open combat the whole game (was delighted to find this applied to the final boss, too). Also, the thief gave me the best scope for getting into places ahead of time and trying to subvert and break the game, but kudos to Arkane for making the quest integrity rock-solid.
I think I played four times in all, finally with an immensely tough, no-brains [b]tank[/i] of a fighter, which was great fun at first but wore thin after all those other types (should have made this guy first!). For me, it also helped that the game was short, as I probably wouldn't have endured a 30+ hour game more than once. I doubt Dark Messiah will offer non-linearity in the story or multiple outcomes (be nice if it does, though), but it's sure to have a similar of variety of gamepay "types" via multiple-approach objectives and good support of choices in character creation/development. In fact, it should really be more varied and open to improvisation, because the degree of simulation in the world ought to be much higher thanks to the Source engine. Hopefully it'll be another game I'll want to play more than once, but maybe not for you, crpgnut!  |
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Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:51 am |
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cptmaxon
High Emperor
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 557
Location: Israel |
Plin I have to disagree about the whole magic bit, as a mage you are capable to do more damage, of course at first you are not effective, think about it like this a lvl 1 warrior and a lvl1 mage, the warrior swings a sword to defeat monsters, the mage has a very small number of spells.
a lvl 20 warrior, still swings a sword he just does it very well, a lvl 20 wizard by comparsion, can fill the room with acid, suck the water out of any living thing, kill you just by pointing his finger, and open doors to other dimension...
this is supposedly after years in ones proffesion, so it's no wonder it's hard to work up a mage, I think that's the way it should be, and frankly I enjoy working up a mage, it makes me use alot more tactics in my fights knowing I can't take alot of the critters by force.
_________________
"We're still flying"
"it's not much"
"It's enough" |
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Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:53 am |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
Well, I know you're not the only one that thinks that way, and I know all characters should have limited abilities early in the game, but it seems to me traditionally magic classes are treated significantly more harshly than others, and there's just no reason for it. If your game balance works for the warriors and thieves, why break it for the mages?
I like a role-playing game to support whichever character choices I am allowed to make for the entirity of the game, that's good RPG design - Fallout is absolutely the best example I've seen in this respect, and Arx Fatalis did a pretty excellent job of it too (albeit with a limited skillset). Daggerfall is one of the worst - a fantastic character creation tool, it says to the player "go ahead, make whatever character you like!" - but it doesn't mention that, if you don't make a mean fighter, you ain't getting out of the tutorial dungeon. If a game gives me free choice to build a character as I like, then punishes me for certain decisions, that's plain old poor design. If you can't support certain choices with an entertaining game, you shouldn't be offering those choices.
Now, I know most D&D-style RPGs are deliberately making the mage's path a chore, it's not a balancing mistake but a conscious design decision, and I know my view is not shared by many RPGers, but I hate that even more - I may be able to forgive a mistake in game balance, but not a bloody mind; not a designer who values tradition or hard-core cachet above good and fair game design. Such a designer, in my view, is not doing his job. A weak character vs. overwhelming odds can be done in an entertaining way (see Thief 2, System Shock 2), so there's really no excuse.
I know we differ on this, but I will likely abandon a game that requires me to play, say, 20 out of 30 hours before it gives me any kind of rewarding gameplay experience. I play to be entertained, and I expect that reward to be in gameplay, not in stats, items or plot exposition; I'm certainly not saying I want instant gratification and no depth, but mage-discrimination (magism?) is at the opposite extreme, and I'm a fan of neither.
But I know hardly anybody agrees with me, so never mind! 
Well... it's no wonder RPG developers have such a tough time, eh? I think there's more division in this genre's fanbase than any other - it must be virtually impossible to make one game that satisfies every CRPGer. Even a relatively simple or small-in-scope RPG is hard work, and to enter into such a development with next-to-no prospect of reward... hey, that reminds me of something!  |
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Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:22 pm |
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Gaidal Cain
Head Merchant
Joined: 29 Oct 2005
Posts: 54
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quote:
Originally posted by cptmaxon
Kain: yes you are right I forgot about the kobold bard, he was a good NPC, but one good NPC doesn't make up for a score of bad ones, in my opion, also dekin was included in the addons, so I didn't see him until the expansion... and the original campagin was kind of dumb, that is my opion at least...
as for more colorfull NPC, look at Diego, and Torlof, Lee, Gorn,pretty much all the ppl from the old colony, each had a unique story line ,and quests he gave, and they were all more then 1 dimensional.
in NWN , the original campaign you had to to lvl and then you got to hear thier stories, and it led to strong items(that's the only reason I listened to the babbling) the stories quite frankly were stupid(again my opion)
Deekin wasn't a good NPC. Good NPCs were the henchmen in HotU, Lady Aribeth (she IS), Tomi Undergallows, etc. were good NPCs... Deekin could very well have been the BEST NPC. His story is just full of quirks and ends, you never know what he will do next, dangerous buy loyal, ambiguous in every sense of the word... No Diego can compare to that to me. Gothic's characters were good, don't get me wrong, but they were pretty static, flat and never really became anywhere that could be called dynamic, round. Unlike Deekin and for instance, Lady Aribeth, or the henchmen in HotU... all those were round characters.
I'm sorry, but even though I love Gothic, you people are vastly underestimating the quality of Neverwinter Nights. It may be you've seen it all before, I'm sure you've read many Forgotten Realms books or know the entire world already... but the game Neverwinter Nights, even without the expansions, is sheer top quality, better than gothic, better than Morrowind. |
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Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:45 pm |
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Bartacus
Il Buono
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 4706
Location: Belgium Flemmish part |
quote:
Originally posted by Paul999999
Oh no! I guess to be an adult here you gotta take these forums serious! no attacking! "attacking" hello this is the internet and to be an adult on these forums you must be over weight and wear glasses too?
Did you just describe yourself and thereby want to prove you're 'worthy' to come here, little(in every sence of the word) man. I myself am 1m90 weight 78kg, not wearing any glases. Oh can I please join your special little group, Paul?
//And yes I know Jaz, Gorath that this post of mine is really on the edge, but I just couldn't withstand that small touch of sarcasme that still grows inside me.
_________________
Moderator and Council Magician of the RPGDot Shadows
member of the Sports Fans Forum
Leader's Right Hand at the Gothic Rogues
NFG member |
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Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:34 pm |
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GothicGothicness
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 110
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--Gothic--
First something about Gothic 1 and 2, it's not strange someone who plays it for a short while and don't know about the gothic games finds it frustrating, after all even the gamespot guy called it "Frustrating and hard" obviusly he didn't take the time to play longer than to the first town. Gothic is the kind of game you need to give time before you'll realise its greatness, I don't know of anyone who have played through them and think they're bad. On the other hand I know many who tried it for a few hours and gave up.
--NWN--
I know this is a little off topic but I have to say something about NWN, in its single player form, it's completely awful, in every sense, however what is good about it is that it's the closest thing to playing pen and paper RPG on a PC, I prefer the pen and paper form if I want to play sometning like that though
--Romance--
quote:
openendedness (like so many other games it was quite linear), but the romance options alone were worth playing the game at least four times ^_^.
There is this genre called dating sims maybe it's what you're looking for
or even dating sim RPG's Sakura Taisen Forever! , I love that genre, too bad so few good games are translated to english. Japanese skills comes in handy sometimes |
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Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:54 pm |
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cptmaxon
High Emperor
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 557
Location: Israel |
cain: first sorry for mispelling your name in the last post.
I disagree, NPC in gothic are always out there for themselves, the world feels much more living that way, even though all of them help you and my become your char friends, they will still look out for themselves, they all go with you to the temple in the end because they want of khornisis, not because they want to help you defeat the chosen of beliar.
deekin's unwavering loyalty, and that of any other npc , in NWN makes the char somewhat dumb and slow from my outlook, they seemed water down and lack any personallity, not to mention that whole good and evil thing is way more prounonce then I would have made it, think about it, you can spot the evil NPC a mile away, and the good npc as well, I could tell Arbieth would fall from chapter 2, they might have made her better at hordes of the underdark, but even then all they did was make her apathic , every answer she gave was"why should I care about this/that" .
I have to disagree with you on this point.
as for love stories in games, I think the way BG2 did it was ok, however I do not like the way it was done in NWN, it was too fast to feel natrual.
in BG2 the gave the much needed time for the char to heal from losing her husband and to fall in love in with the hero, in NWN it was ok I love you from the moment I saw you blah blah blah, it felt unreal.
_________________
"We're still flying"
"it's not much"
"It's enough" |
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Tue Nov 01, 2005 5:56 am |
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Bartacus
Il Buono
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 4706
Location: Belgium Flemmish part |
Read this info on http://www.totalvideogames.com/articles/Gothic_III_Feature_8738_5204_0_0_0_20_40.htm :
quote:
Negative feedback from the fans has centered around the fact that the games interface and controls have been somewhat clunky. So how will this be changed/rectified for Gothic 3?
Stefan: I can promise there will be a lot of changes for the interface and the controls. The interface of Gothic 1 and Gothic 2 focused for a console version. But as we all know we never released a console version of the game. We made a lot of control improvements from the 1st to the 2nd part of the game. For part 3 we will again make the controls much easier. So we will have a drag and drop inventory (inventory was one of the most criticized things from G1 and G2).
So those things are good for crpgnut, but not for me. I liked the inventory system of gothic much, much more then the usual click and drag stuff you get in other games. In gothic you could get attacked by your enemies while going trough the inventory and that's imo more realistic then going to your inventory select the best spell for that certain enemy and finish him.
I'm beginning to think that the PB's are changing to much and that the original Gothic Fans that actually liked everything about the game (also the controls), will buy a game that doesn't correspond to what they've hoped for.
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Tue Nov 01, 2005 3:09 pm |
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