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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
I got to level 3 and was sidetracked by Baldurs Gate series. However, i am going to buy Tribunal of course and start my adventure in Morrowind over again. By the time i am finished with Tribunal maybe ES3 will be out LOL |
Sat Nov 09, 2002 4:32 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
@Sauron - Why that i should be "happy" or not? We are focusing on specific issue and did some rational debate here. Not emotional venting competition... 
And "our opinions are subjective, but I'm sure that some will carry more weight." Yes, some opinions carry more weight, and thus lean more toward truth or become an "objective opinions." Try to look things from two sides or better still, more than that. For example, how much posssibility is there for Bethesda to incorporated all those features you spoke of? (btw, i agree to most of your points on MW's weaknesses). It simply infeasible from financial point of view, and don't forget, MW already in development for 4 or 5 years without implementation of those features!. And Bethesda don't have a huge developer team with huge amount of money.
@Llama - "It's nothing special once you take away the fancy graphics. What possible merits could anyone give the game?"
Since when the game called Morrowind is all about fancy graphic?. And you asked What possible merits could anyone give the game? Let me put this way - what's the traditions of The Elder Scrolls set out to be since Arena, and later Daggerfall? What's the game designer visions when created this series? why many players still love Daggerfall although it's known as full of bugs?. I am sure there is other goals, but enough to say one of them - the OPEN ENDED nature in game. Now, let say The Elder Scrolls got features A, B, C (or the goals/principles of developer when creating the game), but unfortunately there always be some player don't like these features, or like other features better (NPCs A.I, structural quests system, etc). If we put a set of different criteria to evaluate (e.g - features D, E, F such as NPCs A.I which never been the goals in MW), of course we will find nothing we likes and say MW sucks big time!. A games always set out with certain goals/features, it simply cannot be everything (or put every features in MW). so when we try to criticise the game, it's more important to ask whether the Bethesda succesful or not in implementing features A, B, C - not something else that the developer never mean to accomplish in the game. That explains why i don't think your really put MW on it own merits. MW is the type of CRPG that mean for certain group of CRPG players, & a lot of players like it (if you check up the total registered user at MW's forums, not to mention the number only show around 30% of all people who bought MW, beside users at other sites).
And why you should say to FireAnt "The only people that will get flamed are the people that cry "flame war" when there is none. Beware of what you wish for." Maybe you're not aware "the tones" in your own statements, or maybe you always sound that way when speaking or writing. Or you just want to be argumentative. In fact, what FireAnt said is true, we just hijacked a normal thread and turn it into something else, and i'm one of the contributors!  . So enough of this...
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Sat Nov 09, 2002 6:28 am |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
I said 'happy' because I gave my own opinion about Morrowind without resorting to profanities or vulgar arguments as relating to your mother. The opinions that I was referring to as carrying more weight were those of reviewers.
(as to 4-5 years in production and financial feasability) Well, then what were they doing for 4-5 years? Certainly it wasn't making non-rigid models, a bugless environment, mentally engrossing quests, smart, concise dialogue, a depth of immersion, or making a longer musical score to match an infinitely long game. Regardless of how well the game came out, they still had to pay the techies the same amount per annum. What I am saying is that they should have shifted focus from creating a dull Brobdingnagian world to creating a compact, lively world. The only example that I know of such a world is Gothic.
P.S.: Sorry for continuity errors, I really have to go now...
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Sat Nov 09, 2002 8:59 pm |
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Gish
Almighty Gish
Joined: 27 Apr 2002
Posts: 249
Location: Spartanburg, South Carolina |
I personally like Morrowind's world better than Gothic's world. everyone in Gothic sounds the same thing and does the same thing, so it is no better than Morrowind. you can actually talk to people about more stuff in MW than Gothic. I like the atmosphere of MW better than Gothic. Gothic is not a bad game, I just like MW better.
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"It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible." |
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Sat Nov 09, 2002 9:49 pm |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
In Gothic, yes, people did do the same things all the time... Diggers would go to their beds at night, guards would patrol their districts, the mages would practise spells, the females would wash floors, bathe, and fan their fearless leader, the weed mashers mashed, Cor Kalom was mixing potions, Cor Angar, Scorpio, and... what's his face from the new camp trained recruits during the day and sat around fires at night, Baal Cadar taught the novices, the blacksmiths... smithed, at set eating times, most people would either cook themselves a meal or have some beer, cheese, or strawberries, or heaven forbid, the morning joint, (don't forget the guy who liked to take a whiz on the firepit) when you walked into someone's house, they came at you and took out the weapon they had visible on their belt, bouncers would beat you up if you tried to enter their club, you could trash talk a gladiator and be forced into a fight with him, there were hunters in the woods, who, when approached by a small game animal would take out their bows, kill it, and then take its meat, and finally, people "talked" to each other. Surely, all of this was predictable, but at least they did something other than remain static. A small effort as to this was made, but I feel that it came no where near the NPC system of Gothic. But, one must account for the fact that Morrowind has upwards of 3000 NPC's, and such effort into each on of those would have required a horrendous amount of time... 
In the German version there were more/different voice actors for different people but in Morrowind, regardless of who you talk to, whether-be-it the P.O.'ed guard, the thief who is hiding in the sewers, or the brilliant archmage, all of them would elicit the exact same responses on certain subjects, and in the event that they are of the same race, they will give you the same audio voice greeting.
Just writing what I think...
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Sat Nov 09, 2002 11:30 pm |
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Llama
High Emperor
Joined: 11 Oct 2001
Posts: 509
Location: Earth |
quote:
Since when the game called Morrowind is all about fancy graphic?. And you asked What possible merits could anyone give the game? Let me put this way - what's the traditions of The Elder Scrolls set out to be since Arena, and later Daggerfall? What's the game designer visions when created this series? why many players still love Daggerfall although it's known as full of bugs?. I am sure there is other goals, but enough to say one of them - the OPEN ENDED nature in game. Now, let say The Elder Scrolls got features A, B, C (or the goals/principles of developer when creating the game), but unfortunately there always be some player don't like these features, or like other features better (NPCs A.I, structural quests system, etc). If we put a set of different criteria to evaluate (e.g - features D, E, F such as NPCs A.I which never been the goals in MW), of course we will find nothing we likes and say MW sucks big time!. A games always set out with certain goals/features, it simply cannot be everything (or put every features in MW). so when we try to criticise the game, it's more important to ask whether the Bethesda succesful or not in implementing features A, B, C - not something else that the developer never mean to accomplish in the game. That explains why i don't think your really put MW on it own merits. MW is the type of CRPG that mean for certain group of CRPG players, & a lot of players like it (if you check up the total registered user at MW's forums, not to mention the number only show around 30% of all people who bought MW, beside users at other sites).
Have you ever seen a Charlie Brown cartoon? If you have, then try to imagine what the adults sounded like when they talked. Besides the headache I recieve from trying to make heads or tails from your post that's the only other thing my brain could muster.
You failed to address anything I brought up with a counter point. You simply said "that is not the goal/vision of this game/series"... Basically, without providing anything substantial, you have said that the goal/vision of this game/series has been to be anything but splendid.
quote:
And why you should say to FireAnt "The only people that will get flamed are the people that cry "flame war" when there is none. Beware of what you wish for." Maybe you're not aware "the tones" in your own statements, or maybe you always sound that way when speaking or writing. Or you just want to be argumentative. In fact, what FireAnt said is true, we just hijacked a normal thread and turn it into something else, and i'm one of the contributors! . So enough of this...
There is nothing wrong with my tone. I type as I speak, and I've never had an issue with anyone in real life during a heated debate. I'm sorry you're so light hearted and fragile that my words hurt you or anyone else on this forum. But they are nothing more than words. Welcome to the internet...
quote:
But, one must account for the fact that Morrowind has upwards of 3000 NPC's, and such effort into each on of those would have required a horrendous amount of time...
Say...4-5 years of developement time?  |
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Sun Nov 10, 2002 1:57 am |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
quote:
Originally posted by Llama
Say...4-5 years of developement time?
Sounds about right...
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Sun Nov 10, 2002 2:52 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
@Sauron - "I said 'happy' because I gave my own opinion about Morrowind without resorting to profanities or vulgar arguments as relating to your mother. The opinions that I was referring to as carrying more weight were those of reviewers."
Oh, probably it's not what i thought of on your previous statements. Well, not that i want to complaint or whatever, because i know you long enough on this forum as the person who won't be blunt in discussion. You see, when someone just drop by and said "WTF" and "piece of shit," you would start thinking "eh??"
@Llama - Ahh..., the debate still going on? Okay:
- "Have you ever seen a Charlie Brown cartoon? If you have, then try to imagine what the adults sounded like when they talked. Besides the headache I recieve from trying to make heads or tails from your post that's the only other thing my brain could muster."  You don't understand? I already tried to made it as plain as possible, maybe you could read it again?, Or anyone else also don't understand?, or you just refuse to OPEN UP your mind?. I am not expert in game development, but you could always look up at gaming sites on articles about game designing & development, or the problems faced by game developer & such (IF you even care about these things). As i said, we should see things from different perspectives (as a general gamer, or a specific CRPGs player, or as a developer, etc), not only confined to our own (limited) point of view. You would agree with me on this point, right?. Okay, i ask you this question - If we only see things ONLY from one side, how could we get a more complete picture?.
- "You failed to address anything I brought up with a counter point." Counter point to what?, the pros & cons points you that brought out?. I already said i agree most of the "legitimate weaknesses" (weakness that less subject to personal likes & dislikes) of Morrowind, so what is the problems? The game unbalance? broken? what aspects you refer to? some of them (or whatever you said as "broken" and "unbalance") could be acceptable, but some of them is DEBATABLE or dependent how the player play the game. For example, you would say the unbalance economy system - not enough money, or where i should sell that 500,000,000 daedric sword? But you should take into account that a lot of player who still can get tons of money from Creeper at Caldera, or from the drunken Mudcrab. And this same group of player also complaints that the game is already too easy (another "weakness") even without getting tons of money!. See the contradiction?. If the game was too easy, then avoid "powergaming" and stop asking you want tons of money!. keep your mind open and expand your perspective, because you may like certain aspects in game, but not other players. That's why i said you made a sweeping conclusions or too quick to point something up as "broken", "unbalance," or "flawed." The journal system is the clearer example among the weaknesses of Morrowind, even the developer (in recent interview) admited that they're rather embarrassed with the poor sorting design (in fact, no sorting available) for the finish and unfinish quests.
-"You simply said "that is not the goal/vision of this game/series"... Basically, without providing anything substantial, you have said that the goal/vision of this game/series has been to be anything but splendid." Geez, i can't believe you said that after my previous detail post. Maybe you really don't understand as you said yourself. Did i really said the goals of MW is ONLY SPLENDID? Or 100% splendid? I said one of the Elders Scrolls series is to provide a OPEN ENDED gameplay, that's it. We can also talk about a BIG GAME WORLD, but whether Bethesda successfull or not in these aspects is still a big issue, and personally i doubt Bethesda 100% successful at them. For example, in Daggerfall they did provided a huge game world, far larger than in Morrowind, but unfortunately the maps or dungeons seem repetitive (looks alike, same), in other words, we would felt limited variations of the game world. In Morrowind, Bethesda realised this problem, so they created a smaller game world. For some players, they are happy with this (and at least in few cases i read somewhere a player said they still wanted a larger game world), for others, they think Morrowind's game world is too big and blank (and you're one of them). But we should remember the huge game world or the Open ended elements was what made The Elder Scrolls (TES) so popular in the first place, and very acceptable to CERTAIN GROUPs of CRPG player. Morrowind is different type of CRPGs, and MORROWIND IS NOT GOTHIC, because both games developer think different set of goals when making their game. In this case especially Bethesda still need to maintain a relatively huge game because a lot of player like this feature in Daggerfall, which was i what wanted to poit up in previous post. (some how i feel you still would say "i don't understand what you said").
- "There is nothing wrong with my tone. I type as I speak, and I've never had an issue with anyone in real life during a heated debate. I'm sorry you're so light hearted and fragile that my words hurt you or anyone else on this forum. But they are nothing more than words. Welcome to the internet..." Wow, what an attitude ( ). Well, not that i want to change your "style," i just think that for a rational discussion we need to maintain a suitable atmosphere. Not with blundering around or throwing "WTF" or "piece of shit" around, since the words won't make your argumments any more valid. BTW, that statements also made me remember something - you usually visit Gothic forums, yes?. Well, i thought you are another case of player who extremely like Gothic and extremely hate Morrowind, right?. Tell you what, here is my big secret - PERSONALLY I LIKE BOTH GOTHIC AND MORROWIND, BUT AS YOU EXPECTED, i THINK MW IS BETTER (  ). Anyway, this whole argument is getting tiresome...
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Sun Nov 10, 2002 7:58 am |
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Gish
Almighty Gish
Joined: 27 Apr 2002
Posts: 249
Location: Spartanburg, South Carolina |
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
Tell you what, here is my big secret - PERSONALLY I LIKE BOTH GOTHIC AND MORROWIND, BUT AS YOU EXPECTED, i THINK MW IS BETTER ( ). Anyway, this whole argument is getting tiresome...
amen!!!
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"It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible." |
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Sun Nov 10, 2002 8:57 am |
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Llama
High Emperor
Joined: 11 Oct 2001
Posts: 509
Location: Earth |
quote:
You see, when someone just drop by and said "WTF" and "piece of shit," you would start thinking "eh??"
I've been "dropping by" longer than you've been a member, and probably longer than you've even heard of this website.
To the rest of your post...  |
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Sun Nov 10, 2002 11:16 pm |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
@ Llama - You came here longer so your opinions is more valid?
"To the rest of your post... " I see, now you not only don't understand my post, you ignoring my whole post!. Come on, you should get over with the hostility, hatred, or the "personal problem with Morrowind." It's just a game. You don't like it, move on, or write a long complaining letter (constructive criticism, not start the letter with "piece of shit") to Bethesda to get the developer attention, i'm sure they want opinions from player about the weakness of Morrowind.
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Mon Nov 11, 2002 3:28 am |
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Llama
High Emperor
Joined: 11 Oct 2001
Posts: 509
Location: Earth |
Your comment to Sauron made it appear that you valued what people say by how long they've been coming to these forums.
quote:
I see, now you not only don't understand my post, you ignoring my whole post!. Come on, you should get over with the hostility, hatred, or the "personal problem with Morrowind." It's just a game. You don't like it, move on, or write a long complaining letter (constructive criticism, not start the letter with "piece of shit") to Bethesda to get the developer attention, i'm sure they want opinions from player about the weakness of Morrowind.
Since you seem hellbent on persuing the matter further, I felt it necessary to express to you why I have tried to avoid responding to you once I posted the "charlie brown" comment. My eyeroll was because I got tired of trying to filter through your post looking for senetences that had enough structure in them that I could respond to. Unfortunatly, it all bled together and became a jumbled mess of caveman gibberish. I don't have all the time in the world to spend on the internet sifting through your postings trying to make heads or tails of your vaild points and opinions. Which is why, if you notice until now, I have selectively responded to a single remark you've made when your post has gone beyond a few sentences.
I'm not hostile, hateful, nor do I have a personal problem with this game beyond the scope of disappointment with what I waited for the last 3 years of its developement.
Thanks for the rest of your words of wisdom. I appreciate the parental attempt to bring your self-esteem up. You're just a little person on the internet, therefor, what I say to you does not reflect what I have already said to Bethesda on their official forums.
Remember, you were the one to respond to my opinion, trying to refute my post. Claiming that it was a "sweeping conclusion", when my entire intent was to keep it short and simple for the sake of this post. Your little comment lead to me asking if you wanted an entire essay on why --->I<--- felt MW was a piece of shit. I answered the original two questions regarding this thread, you felt that my opinion wasn't conclusive enough because it differed from yours. |
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Mon Nov 11, 2002 7:27 pm |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
Could you calm down a little bit? That's why using "strong words" is not recommended in forums. Okay, here is my very simple question, since you said "I have already said to Bethesda on their official forums." Could you put it here what you said to them? Don't worry, now i won't complaints on anything, i just want to see the detail of your opinions to Bethesda. Are you okay with that? But first, calm down.
Addition: Also, i am not "hellbent" on pursuing the matter, i am just puzzled when you put a "big judgment" on Morrowind without giving a detail reasons, and not respond to my questions. But now nevermind, if you don't want to, you don't need to answer my questions. And as you said, you have not problem with "heated discussion," i hope you keep that principles. Even after you said my questions was "jumbled mess of caveman gibberish," or you try to imply that i'm "caveman", i won't pursuing this matter .
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Tue Nov 12, 2002 12:53 am |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
In future, may I suggest use of the word 'troglodyte' over caveman?
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Make good choices. |
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Wed Nov 13, 2002 12:11 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
There is another "discussion" on Morrowind vs Gothic in "Arx Fatalis Review at IGN.PC" (at latest news comments section). When MW came out months ago, this kind of topic already became popular among visitors here. It's like a disease that spread everywhere Well, i'm done with all these....
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Wed Nov 13, 2002 3:41 am |
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