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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
| Side Quest: Hey! Where did my party go? |
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We were a little slow getting the poll going last week but the results show most readers take some interest in indie RPGs. 18% are always playing indie games, while around 66% combined are occasional players or have experimented with one or two. Only 15% have no interest in indie games - or at least while the graphics aren't cutting edge. On to this week.
<br><br><table cellpadding="1" align="center"><tr><td width="160"><a href="http://newspics.rpgdot.com/imageview.php?dir=gallery/5/Screenshots/&name=ingame.jpg" target="ImageView"><img src="http://newspics.rpgdot.com/gallery/5/Screenshots/tn_ingame.jpg" border=0 alt="Display full image"></a></td></tr><tr><TD align=middle width=160><I>I want my party!</I></TD></tr></table>
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<br>I’ve travelled Britannia with Dupre and Shamino, survived the wastelands with Dogmeat by my side and smirked while Jaheira succumbed to overwhelming odds…I never liked that superior attitude of hers. My trusty band has battled the wilds of Dominus to defeat the Dark Savant, I have wandered the outer planes with a talking skull and I’ve yelled colourful curses at Marcus’ awful aim with that damn mini-gun…but it was so much fun I just couldn’t take it off him.
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<br>So many of my favourite RPGs have been party-based. Sure, they come in different shapes and sizes, from creating a large team in one of the Wizardrys to recruiting a handful of followers in Fallout but there’s something about having companions joining your adventures that I have always enjoyed. In addition, there’s the strategy layer that balancing a party adds to many of these games. I’m sure I’m not the only player to have spent hours juggling the manual and an Excel spreadsheet in search of that perfect Wizardry 8 party.
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<br>The historic and evolutionary link between wargaming, PnP roleplaying and cRPGs is obvious, so it’s no surprise that so many classic cRPGs have been party-based. So why are they now an endangered species?
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<br>Obsidian’s <em>Neverwinter Nights 2</em> (based on reports of up to three followers) and BioWare’s <em>Dragon Age</em> are the only party-based cRPGs that I can think of in development in North America. There’s <em>The Fall</em>, <em>Metalheart</em> and no doubt a handful of others from Europe...but parties have been pretty thin on the ground since the <em>Baldur’s Gate</em> series ended.
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<br>My guess is a rise in action-RPGs, where the dynamic of managing a party is at odds with keeping the action flowing, perhaps reinforced by the desire (need?) to keep pace with the graphics war waged daily by shooters, which renders isometric views increasingly quaint to many. While “party” and “isometric” don’t go hand-in-hand, it’s one more factor. Some players would point to a single character as offering a better roleplaying focus (which I would broadly accept) but I doubt that sentiment drives developers and publishers.
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<br>At the end of the day, it’s all about sales, of course. We’ve seen an obvious rush to create the next <em>Diablo</em>…but there has also been a conspicuous failure to achieve this stature, unless we look at the multiplayer market and titles like <em>Guild Wars</em>. In the meantime, the last classic fantasy party-based series – <em>Baldur’s Gate</em> – has notched up sales of 5 million copies. It’s hard to understand why no one wants to capitalise on this seemingly obvious desire for epic, story-rich, party cRPGs.
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<br>Have a theory on where party RPGs went? Think its part of the general slowness in the cRPG market? Too busy anticipating Oblivion or Gothic 3 to care? Who needs that micro-management anyway? Hit the poll on the left and then we’d love to hear what you think. |
Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:12 pm |
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bjon045
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 234
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Your poll needs another option. Create a party and recruit some followers along the way - Wizardry 8, Wasteland, Bards Tale and the old gold box games. I would say that is my favourite type 
EDIT: I guess you could call that "Recruit characters into a full party". I just voted for it  |
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Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:41 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
Is NWN really a party based game (more than 1 or 2 henchmen?)
I don't know about you guys, but when I played the Balder's Gate games I played on lan so I could create a four of my own characters (leaving 2 slots open to bring the premade fools with me). I know I missed a lot of content due to this, and that totaly tubular party banter, and all the super duper romances, but I like to create my own characters that to me, are infinitly more interesting.
I remember pooring over the manuals of RoA: Blade of Destiny, Buck Rogers, DarkSun, Wiz 6 and 7, and Darklands creating that perfectly synergized group. I poored so much time and effort into creating the characters, that by the time I'm done I know my group, their history, how they interact, and all there little idiosincracies (sp?). To me, that just adds so much to the involvment and your stake in their growth, and your stake in the game.
I loved trying to eek out that extra litle bit of efficiency. Rolling for that big score in Wiz 7. Making a character that is almost perfect, but almost doesn't cut it so you delete. Then finally having a full party, you poored so much into, and then finally starting the game. This is the reason why wiz 6 and 7 will always be better than 8 to me. This is one of the reasons (besides good TB combat) that I loved ToEE. I love variables, I love choice, and I love the side effects of creating a party; you actually feel deeply for these guys you infused with life and a personality. That just adds so much to game enjoyment than a choice light party based game like PoR: RoMD, or the millions of games with no or crappy character generation and you pick up characters (most of the consoles, even most crpgs nowadays).
Even in sp games, if there is no character creation or rediculously stupid character creation (a la Gothic, Jade Empire, Diablo's, console games, most crpgs) I just don't care about the character. I can't say, do, or even think what I want the character to do, since his history, reactions, and interactions are all scripted. So a good character generation can carry a game for me, like Daggerfall. When the game is party based it just multiplies that effect of involvment and having a stake in the game.
I would love to see a return to the thinking games of yesterday, where you put a lot into the game before you even started it. Desicions where important and ignoring an obviously important aspect could leave you gimped and screwed. Rpg were invented so people could live an adventure as a vastly different alternative to books, a blank book that you actually live out and create the adventure as you go, and now a lot of popular games are turning into interactive books. And the other half are just hack n slashes without much other than clicking a lot. Either way, most forms of thinking, planning, and tactics have been stripped out of rpgs in my oppinion. Now, out of the two games I'm really looking forward to, one is single chatacter (but looks to have great character creation), which is AoD, and Nightwatch, and since its a movie/book game, might not even have character creation, nevermind full party creation.
Oh well, so is life. As long as they keep making vasaline and baby oil, I'll always have an alternative use for my imagination.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:49 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
p.s. Good topic and article.
_________________
Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:53 pm |
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ShadowMoses
Head Merchant
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 69
Location: UK |
I hear there's a game called Ashes that will be party based! ¬_¬
_________________
Dak’kon: "Your reasons for your incessant clicking are not *known* to me."
-=:ASHES:=- || -=:Xenus-hq:=- |
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Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:59 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
Shadowmoss, that game looks great. Party and Tb combat. How far away is release? The last diary said you still need to put in combat so I'm guessing at least a year?
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:34 pm |
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ShadowMoses
Head Merchant
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 69
Location: UK |
quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
Shadowmoss, that game looks great. Party and Tb combat. How far away is release? The last diary said you still need to put in combat so I'm guessing at least a year?
release? sorry, i have no idea! 
The initial version of the combat system is done and the magic system is just about finished although i'm sure they'll be a load of changes!
We're working on a tech demo and trying to include as many gameplay elements as we can... hopefully it will have combat!
_________________
Dak’kon: "Your reasons for your incessant clicking are not *known* to me."
-=:ASHES:=- || -=:Xenus-hq:=- |
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Sat Jul 09, 2005 5:53 pm |
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Vidder
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 05 Aug 2002
Posts: 46
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wow, this "ashes" game looks good!
i never bothered with the banner, because it somehow looked like an mmorpg (which i hate).
FINISH IT!
;) |
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Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:29 pm |
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niteshade
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 100
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I think the issue right now is that there are two types of RPGs which are most common among PCs right now (Consoles are another matter entirely).
1) Action RPGs
2) Story Based RPGs
For action RPGs, parties obviously don't work well. These RPGs are supposed to fast paced and exciting, and it just doesn't work well to control a party in real time. You might have a computer controlled henchman or two, but that's about it.
Parties can work for story based RPGs, however you need a main character. It's almost impossible to build a detailed story with real character development (the story based kind, not the stat based kind) if they let you create your entire party from scratch. So usualy these games have you recruit companions along the way, that way everyone can be given there own storyline, personality, and challenges they have to face along the way.
The type of game where parties created from scratch work best is the kind you rarely see anymore....a turn based RPG with an emphasis on combat and problem solving over story and dialogue. I think the reason you don't see this much anymore is because the modern gamer who likes lots of combat usualy likes it fast paced, while the modern gamer who likes a more slow paced game usualy prefers something with more story. |
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Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:48 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
I would also love to see a new party-based RPG . I was really hoping that Dungeon Siege (I know, I know... action RPG, shallow, boring etc etc) would inspire developers to make more party-based RPGs with a 3D engine. It worked perfectly in Dungeon Siege and the tedious micro-management was basically non-existent due to the excellent party control features.
I really wish someone would make Realms of Arkania IV with great graphics and the same ease of party controls like Dungeon Siege but the licence holder (German Fanpro) does unfortunately not seem to be too interested in a return of Realms of Arkania on PC (or any platform for that matter) *sigh*.
And I fully second what Roqua said. One of the reasons I hated BG & Co. was the fact that you basically had to rely on pre-defined characters to get the most out of the game(s)... *yawn*... if someone makes a party-based RPG then please let us create our own parties with characters that we can really grow attached to.
Ideally with an "import party" feature for any sequels. I have very fond memories of replaying the entire Realms of Arkania trilogy with one party from the very beginning of Blade of Destiny to the final encounter in Shadows over Riva... *sheds a tear* . |
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Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:01 pm |
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GothicGothicness
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 110
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I think it's a matter of resources, making a baldurs gate game with todays visuals, would just cost too much even if it sold good. |
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Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:01 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
Then I said they drop today's visuals. If the cost of visuals is the only thing holding actual rpgs from being devloped, and the people are craving the game play, then make it without the visuals.
Graphic whores really are in the wrong genre. How much better would morrowind have been if they detracted a little from graphics and added more to dialogue? How much better would it have been if the kept the same character creation (customizable, not that quick start crap) from daggerfall, but the downside was a little worse graphics?
There has to be a sweat spot for the cost/benefit analysis. For Morrowind it wouldn't have helped, they were going to try to have top of the line graphics no matter what. Graphics were a big selling point for them. But, lets say a BG 3 came out with the same IE engine. I think they would make more than if they spent the resources on making a new cutting edge, fancy graphic engine. The amount of people that actually care that much for graphics over game play couldn't make up the difference in revenue. Of course, this is just my opinion, and maybe there are more graphics whores out there than people who like gameplay.
But of course I've never been a huge BG fan, as I can't stand the IE engine and the craptastic combat it provides. But, beggers cant be chosers. I'd rather have a crappy combat BG3 than no BG3 at all.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:24 pm |
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Moxie
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 38
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Actually visuals are getting cheaper due to outsourcing. You'll have to check out my Tactica piece when it comes out, but smaller games studios are sending off art to India to get cheap graphics. More than a few companies mentioned this at E3 and it should be great solution for keeping visuals high without crushing a game's scope.
As for parties, I had my most fun with Ultima's where you could pick up and drop off characters in a relatively cozy-sized world. I also liked combat the best in 4,5, and 6 when it was sort of strategy lite. I thought Wiz8 had a fantastic combat system that updated well with the times and the 3d world and I'd like to see more of that. I think the games that try to make party combat active, but try to appease strategic types are too much of a middle to be fun. |
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Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:57 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
quote:
Originally posted by Moxie
Actually visuals are getting cheaper due to outsourcing. You'll have to check out my Tactica piece when it comes out, but smaller games studios are sending off art to India to get cheap graphics. More than a few companies mentioned this at E3 and it should be great solution for keeping visuals high without crushing a game's scope.
As for parties, I had my most fun with Ultima's where you could pick up and drop off characters in a relatively cozy-sized world. I also liked combat the best in 4,5, and 6 when it was sort of strategy lite. I thought Wiz8 had a fantastic combat system that updated well with the times and the 3d world and I'd like to see more of that. I think the games that try to make party combat active, but try to appease strategic types are too much of a middle to be fun.
I don't understand the last sentence, "I think the games that try to make party combat active, but try to appease strategic types are too much of a middle to be fun." Not trying to flame or nitpick, I just don't understand. Isn't strategy a lot more active than no strategy? Unless your talking about reflex activity over brain activity.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:08 pm |
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Moxie
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 38
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Sorry, should've rewritten the confusing stream of thought there. I was kind've thinking of the BG combat where it was realtime, but they added a pause so you could be strategic. Even when I would pause the combat, it would all happen real fast and it was hard to appreciate exactly what was going on. It could just be me though. I can't play NFL Blitz either as I get pitifully confused by too many moving objects. |
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Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:15 pm |
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