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XmirroR
Village Leader
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 89
Location: South CA USA |
| What works, What doesn't ... in an RPG? |
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While it isn't completely off topic,
I couldn't decide where to post it...
I hope an editor will move this if necessary.
I just got to thinking that,
While we often complain about games,
I do see random compliments.
I was also thinking if we could list some compliments,
all in one place, someone might read them
Wouldn't a list of features, effects, interfaces, etc. that we as
RPG end users find complimentary be useful to someone?
I know it's often difficult to compliment something,
without complaining about something else,
but I propose we hold back as much as possible
for the purposes of such a list.
Honestly, I don't know where to begin such a list.
In some way I would prefer this post provoke a discussion
about the viability of a list.
Obviously RPGDOT already has very vocal support for
many diverse and different RPGs by maintaining
several individual websites.
Maybe it would be easier to ask why RPGDOT has afforded
effort for such endeavors:
1. What makes "Ultima" worthy?
2. What makes "Gothic" special?
If I answered those questions, I would say
1. Ultima offers an incredible amount of interactivity,
-- Epic story line, and ( usually ) an immense world.
2. Gothic offers an intesly detailed world, with cinematic
-- dialogue.
Breaking that down into what I want from an RPG,
I would say:
1. Interactivity ( with even the most mundane objext )
2. Epic Story ( of course who makes a game that doesn't try for epic )
3. Large World ( might just be my desire to explore )
4. Detailed ( is interactivity the same thing, I don't think so )
5. Smart Dialogue ( well duh )
I am certain if I thought about it long enuf,
I could come up with a 100 facets that contribute to a good RPG.
But I suppose the question is : "What do we as whole want from an RPG?"
I surely cannot answer that question alone,
But I would like to provoke the discussion...
As the end users of RPGs, we should be able
to come up with a mutual definition of an RPG.
No one can say an RPG is game with swords...
But we could say weapons...
Obviously an RPG has some issue with inventory...
Does a good RPG require inventory to calculate encumerance?
No, not in my opinion.
I will suggest that a game that has inventory without encumberance,
is likely more ADVENTURE than RPG...
But I would never say that "Gothic" isn't an RPG...
Personally, if I had to choose the best inventory system
in an RPG it would be the "Ultima VII" gump style
with sub inventory containers.
Does an RPG require statistics? Um... Er.. Well...
I cannot specifically recall a decent RPG that didn't have them.
Was DuesEx an RPG? No one can deny it had RPG elements...
Was Thief an RPG?
...Shrug...
I think I am about to talk myself out of this entire post...
There are so many factes, but somehow we must all agree
on some basics... Something we can share with the people
who want our hard earned money.
Is there anyone who plays RPGs,
that appreciates NOT being able to SAVE GAME
when and wherever they please?
Generically I never want to play another game of any genre
that I cannot define keyboard commands, for that matter any
available input to the game, on my own. Is it too much to
think that we couldn't evoke even that simple change?
I'm looking foward to positive input...
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-= XmirroR =-
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Mon May 09, 2005 6:57 am |
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Namirrha
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 218
Location: Utah County, Utah. |
Sometimes it can be hard to determine what works and what doesn't in an RPG, because there are many variations, many styles of play, and many different kinds of fans, for instance, real-time and turn-based fans and everyone else who falls in between or nowhere. I'd say what works depends on the project and vision that the developers have in mind and how well they implement it given resources, input, and "being true to the idea/vision," or what I'd call, internal consistency for the project. Fulfilling what the project demands. For instance, take the importance of "good" combat. In a game like Planescape: Torment, where a lot of dialogue and party interaction provides the action, its poor combat wasn't quite as much of a drawback to the game as a whole. But in others like Morrowind (IMO), etc. poor combat did affect much of my enjoyment of the game, because a substantially larger amount of gameplay was dedicated to it than to dialogues or plot development. Wherever gameplay is focused and time spent, those are the things that need to work.
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Give me the shadows, shield me from the light, and I shall let nothing pass in the darkness of the night. |
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Thu May 12, 2005 5:42 am |
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tolgerias
High Emperor
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 770
Location: The Netherlands |
One thing that surely has to get on the rpg-highlight list is the Voice acting of Jon Irenicus from Baldurs Gate II
These are coolest villain lines I heard in any RPG
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If you can't debate without namecalling then don't bother visiting us. -Myrthos |
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Thu May 12, 2005 6:12 am |
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smooth
Village Dweller
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
Posts: 2
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Every game needs an end, or it isnt a game.
An end someday, with a objective, wether it be stay alive, rescue something, or just exist it needs a goal.
Sorry, but it rules out your MMOs for now. *leveling doesnt count as a goal*
A good rpg needs something to hook the player, and character advancement is great. Levels, spells, skill, something new thrown in that you know you worked for gives a thrill beyond belief.
Objects are useful too, hard to exist without things.
Unless we are godly we wont really be able to carry around an infinate ammunt of gear.
There has to be interaction, and conversation/communication with something. And, graphics are helpful
There are so many elements needed, and maybe not needed. Its all on the pkayer. |
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Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:07 am |
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Amelia
City Guard
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 141
Location: Ong's Hat, New Jersey |
quote:
Originally posted by smooth
Every game needs an end, or it isnt a game.
An end someday, with a objective, wether it be stay alive, rescue something, or just exist it needs a goal.
Sorry, but it rules out your MMOs for now. *leveling doesnt count as a goal*
The goal is to interact, exist, and evolve in a continuous, dynamic environment populated by many other players. There's something of a metacondition involved with MMOs that is realized when you log off knowing that the world continues to play. Unlike single player games, the many characters revolve around the world and it's story. Naturally it plays different - it's intrinsic of the construction (apples and oranges). Despite this, there are still plenty of objectives, goals and even endings (in a different, varied sort of way). This has and will become more relevant as new generations of MMOs are released. The world is young, it is still clarifying itself.
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The real secret of magick is that the world is made of words. And that if you know the words that the world is made of, you can make of it whatever you wish. -Terence Mckenna |
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Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:13 am |
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Lysiander
Village Dweller
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 4
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Well, what I think makes an RPG a good game, beyond the obvious things like a good story, is that the world and it's characters feel alive.
For instance, when I walk through Gothic and realize im out of arrows, I tell myself: "allright, lets have a quick walk to bosner". That's the ranged stuff NPC. I know where he lives, I know what he looks like.
Walking through dungeon lords, I just wondered what generic merchant would sell me better items.
Exploration is a huge part in what makes games fun for me. In a world without landmarks, no way to interact with my enviroment and generic NPCs without personality, there is no real fun.
For instance, dungeon lords. I loved the dungeon crawls. They were deep, the dungeons were well done and more then once I was close to hysteria, which in this case is a good thing because I knew the dungeons worked. I wasn't stuck because of some bug. I was stuck because I couldn't figure out where to go. However, when I walked the surface of the land, I basically stuck to the path. I might as well have pressed a button to travel from a to b for all I cared. Monsters weren't running around, they spawned (and a load delay told you when), there was nothing to pick up except the occasional odd placed chest. You met noone and nothing and the stuff didn't even look good. Traveling was just anoying.
It's the same with cities in many games. Some games, like gothic, morrowind, baldurs gate II, planescape etc. had towns that felt alive. I knew there were lots of houses to go into that had no real use in the story, the NPCs seemed to have a life and the cities felt, to a certain extend, authentic.
In many other games, we have a couple of building with merchants we can enter and many many doors that are there for show. That does not only feel dead, it feels like a game. That makes games boring.
Basically, I guess it boils down to the old saying "the devils in the detail". What sets the good games apart, aside from story and such, is that the worlds feel alive.
On another note. MMORPGs aren't really RPGs in that sense in my opinion. What makes those worlds alive are the other players. This is not something a company can provide. |
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Sat Jun 04, 2005 7:04 am |
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knight37
Village Dweller
Joined: 26 Feb 2005
Posts: 20
Location: Houston, TX USA |
quote:
Originally posted by smooth
Every game needs an end, or it isnt a game.
An end someday, with a objective, wether it be stay alive, rescue something, or just exist it needs a goal.
Sorry, but it rules out your MMOs for now. *leveling doesnt count as a goal*
Says you. There is no law that says a game has to have an end. I think several million MMORPG players might laugh at you if you're claiming that what they spend their evenings and weekends on isn't even a GAME. I know I would. 
I find it curious that you would even put this in the requirements list. It's almost like you have some kind of agenda againt MMO's so you threw this little "rule" in to try and rule them out. Nice try, but I'm not buying it.
An RPG needs only 3 things to qualify as an RPG:
1. Character. The character (or characters) has to be distinguised from the player. Character has its own set of attributes or skills that define what it is capable of, not based only on player skill. This rules out Thief from being an RPG, but doesn't rule out Deus Ex, where character skill at least has an impact on gameplay even if some player skill is required also.
2. Advancement. The character has to be able to advance and make progress. The character can not just be static. This rules out most adventure games, even if they do have a distinct "character" like say Grim Fandango. Even if the game "hides" your advancement, that would still count (like U9). Advancement could mean gaining levels, or assigning new skill points, or even skills improving through use (MW).
3. Story. There needs to be some kind of goals and narrative that provides a backdrop to adventuring. Almost every game has this and I can't think of any games that have 1 & 2 but not 3 but I threw this in to emphasize the importance of a narrative. Even the earliest, primitive RPG games like Wizardy and the rogue-likes had some type of story, and goals.
Those are of course, not laws, written in stone, but they are what I look for when determining whether or not an game actually is an RPG or not. Some games are more RPG than others, of course, depending on how much of an emphasis the above points are to the gameplay. For example, you can have an action game that has RPG elements like skill points (such as No One Lives Forever 2) but since so much of the game relies on player skill it hardly qualifies as "RPG". Maybe Action/RPG. 
BTW, MMORPGs fit my defintion of the 3 rules. They have characters. They have advancement. And they have story (quests, which provide narrative and also the backdrop for the action). No, the stories aren't as involved (usually) as a single player RPG, but they're at least as involved as old school RPGs like Wizardy and Nethack.
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Visit Knight Games! |
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Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:52 am |
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XmirroR
Village Leader
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 89
Location: South CA USA |
Ok, now were talking...
From this thread and similar threads, what I think we are all saying:
Immersion makes an RPG...
Feel free to correct me, beat me down, or ignore me...
If I am wrong...
But we all seem to be talking about immersion.
Each of us seem to define immersion differently, which is OK...
But perhaps we can find ( and agree on ) some common elements
that help create the feeling of immersion...
I am 100% behind the theory that a good story is key,
However I confess that nearly all RPGs are ultimately boiled down to:
Fledgling adventure does good deeds for hapless NPCs
Gaining strength/power and experience before
taking on the most evil baddie in the land.
Ok, so it's cliche'... So are zombie/vampire/slasher/monster movies...
We still pay good money for them... And some are very popular,
even 30 years after the genre was already cliche'.
Seems to me the story may not be the ticket, but the presentation of the story.
But I look back over the 100's of RPGs I have played in my life,
And I realize that more than half went unfinished because the gameplay
bored me snotless. They may have been the equivalent of "War and Peace",
but I'll never know.
The invention of the internet, and global communication, and forums, and
all the other fun things we all take for granted today, have provided me
a resource I can no longer live without. If I find a solid review of a game I
never gave half a chance to, I'll search my hordes of CDROM, eBay, and
Underdogs find the game and try again. It is not uncommon that I find a
game worth playing, that I previously missed.
I suppose what I am saying is that gameplay is slightly more important
than story when I start a game.
So how do I define gameplay, I define gameplay as, well, er, as immersion.
Damn it, my arguement has become cyclic...
And yet maybe the truth is the story, is only something I understand
if I play the game all the way thru. At the very least it something that
I am only willing to engage with while I am playing.
Ok, ok... I am gonna leave story out of the immersion factor...
Truth is no novel, no movie, no poem, no song... no narative
would be effective with a good story...
This includes characters, and dialogue.
I will assume that a Good RPG has a good story, but I wont deny that a
BAD RPG might have a good story as well.
So what is immersion?
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-= XmirroR =-
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Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:24 am |
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knight37
Village Dweller
Joined: 26 Feb 2005
Posts: 20
Location: Houston, TX USA |
Any game can have immersion, though. Immersion is just the factor in the game that makes you forget you're playing and game or at least causes you to have emotional attachment to the game and thus feel completely and utterly involved in the game.
Games that do this well may or may not be great RPGs but can certainly be fun. Thief series comes to mind. Gothic. Morrowind. All are extremely immersive. Part of the reason for that is their first or third person "you are there" perspective to the graphics, but other contributing factors are NPC characters that actually seem realistic, or at the very least, a world that seems somehow alive.
Planescape Torment and Baldur's Gate 2 however, achieve immersion in a different way. You get more attached to the story and the characters and not necessarily the environment. In PST I was completely drawn in, mostly due to the compelling dialogue. The unique artwork certainly had something to do with it as well, and of course sound plays an important role (who could forget the haunting tunes of PST?). BG2 did it with tons of sidequests that made the game world seem more alive.
So essentially it's extremely difficult to define immersion since it can mean different things for different people and because games can achieve it in various ways. But no game can be great if it doesn't draw the player into it in some way and make them feel like they are a part of the game and not just an observer. 
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Sat Jun 25, 2005 3:20 pm |
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