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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
| Spector scolds industry @ Wham Gaming |
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Not everyone is going to welcome this <a href="http://wham.canoe.ca/news/2005/11/03/1291077.html" target="_blank">keynote speech</a> from Warren Spector at the Montreal International Game Summit - but the message is solid:<blockquote><em>“Sadly sticking with the tried and true is going to result in financial success for some, for a time. But stagnation is not the friend of any medium. And anybody who thinks it is (is) going to go out of business,”said Spector, an American developer whose resume includes Wing Commander, Deus Ex, Thief: Deadly Shadows and several of the Ultima series.
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<br>He also lamented the cost of making games, saying the high price tag had chased away the “indie” developers who had contributed much of the industry’s creativity.</em></blockquote> |
Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:57 am |
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r3dshift
Head Merchant
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Joined: 25 Aug 2005
Posts: 68
Location: Hungary |
Mr Spector is absolutely right there. If only the gaming industry would do away with its current trend of making games that totally lack creativity and return to its 'old' ways of putting out real quality products. However, I presume we'll have to wait for some time before this occurs.
_________________
Don't work too much; it could interfere with your drinking. |
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Fri Nov 04, 2005 10:15 am |
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Shimbatha
Village Leader
Joined: 15 Feb 2002
Posts: 78
Location: Jersey Shore |
Spector should be ashamed of himself, since he took a great game (Deus Ex) and made a very watered down, very stereotypical sequel for it (Invisible War) that is exactly the type of game he is rallying against in this speech. Hypocrite, Warren?
Although I agree with the idea of "Make more original games, less re-hash", I don't count on ever seeing a return to that...unless PC Gaming completely implodes and gets to the point where it is only gamers "like us" still supporting the hobby. Then it will be a return to PC's darker, more elitist days when only the affluent and/or incredibly intelligent were playing games on PCs rather then consoles. It may be hard to swallow, but that's the only way you'll see a return to those days.
The problem is, PC gaming did a fair bit of "Selling out" in the late 90's. PCs became too cheap (thanks to crap-makers Dell and Gateway), games were becoming very simplistic (Diablo and its clones) and advertising for PC games increased exponentially. Now the ratio of intelligent hardcore gamers to casual thrill-seeking gamers has shifted. Guess who there are more of in this hobby?
A side note: I really want Dark Messiah to do well. I LOVED Arx Fatalis, and if that team hits a homerun with this new game, chances are they'll become as big and well respected internationally as Bioware...and then we'll start to see some original stuff for a change. At least, from Arkane Studios. |
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Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:19 pm |
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abbaon
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Shimbatha
Spector should be ashamed of himself, since he took a great game (Deus Ex) and made a very watered down, very stereotypical sequel for it (Invisible War)
Ehn. I wasn't there, but I got the impression that the project lead deserves the blame for that mess. You can trace the most boneheaded decisions to Harvey Smith's abstract design theories. He forgot that his game needed to simulate the real world.
Also, stereotypical? IW was uniquely awful. What other game does it resemble?
quote:
Although I agree with the idea of "Make more original games, less re-hash", I don't count on ever seeing a return to that...unless PC Gaming completely implodes and gets to the point where it is only gamers "like us" still supporting the hobby. Then it will be a return to PC's darker, more elitist days when only the affluent and/or incredibly intelligent were playing games on PCs rather then consoles. It may be hard to swallow, but that's the only way you'll see a return to those days.
The problem is, PC gaming did a fair bit of "Selling out" in the late 90's. PCs became too cheap (thanks to crap-makers Dell and Gateway), games were becoming very simplistic (Diablo and its clones) and advertising for PC games increased exponentially. Now the ratio of intelligent hardcore gamers to casual thrill-seeking gamers has shifted. Guess who there are more of in this hobby?
Who cares? That ratio doesn't influence the calculation a publisher needs to make: will enough people buy this game to cover the cost of development? The exodus of the casual gamers wouldn't increase the number of 'intelligent hardcore gamers', whoever the hell they are. The death of PC gaming would take a lot of them with it, actually. So the development budgets the market could support would collapse, and you could kiss PC RPGs goodbye forever. On the other hand, with a big enough install base, some truly novel (and truly odd) games can turn a profit. The real innovation takes place on the PS2 these days.
I do have high hopes for the mod scene. (And again, more PC gamers = more modders = more mods. More is better, yo.) If someone could just crack procedural animation, I reckon those guys could make anything.
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A side note: I really want Dark Messiah to do well. I LOVED Arx Fatalis, and if that team hits a homerun with this new game, chances are they'll become as big and well respected internationally as Bioware...and then we'll start to see some original stuff for a change. At least, from Arkane Studios.
It looks like fun. |
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Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:41 am |
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Hindukönig
Guards Lieutenant
Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Posts: 170
Location: Halle (Saale) / Nuremberg [Germany] |
quote:
Originally posted by abbaon
Ehn. I wasn't there, but I got the impression that the project lead deserves the blame for that mess. You can trace the most boneheaded decisions to Harvey Smith's abstract design theories. He forgot that his game needed to simulate the real world.
I've read a post-mortem of Invisible War some time ago, by Warren Spector. He justified every decision of the design process which went wrong by the gamers' opinion. I don't know, but he sounded _very_ confident about his mess.
Hrm, I whish I could find that post-mortem again. Damn bookmarks. :(
/edit: Hum, this could it be: http://pc.ign.com/articles/444/444433p3.html |
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Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:42 am |
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abbaon
Guest
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Yeah. While unified ammo and the removal of the skill system both originated with Smith, you could certainly blame Spector for supporting his lead developer's decisions instead of firing him, perhaps into the sun. |
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Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:26 am |
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Guest
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A part of his bitterness may have come from what he couldn't tell at the time. IMO, it is rather naïve to take that all he said at that time came form his free will and true feelings. |
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Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:29 am |
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Shimbatha
Village Leader
Joined: 15 Feb 2002
Posts: 78
Location: Jersey Shore |
quote:
Originally posted by abbaon
Also, stereotypical? IW was uniquely awful. What other game does it resemble?
The problem is, it is far too bland to really resemble anything specifically. It merely "resembles" (your words, not mine) every other failed, overly-hyped, incredibly watered down sequel ever made. Now that I think of it, IW would have been a better game had it just been a completely different game then the first Deus Ex...at least then you could fault it on the grounds that Spector strayed too far from the title's FPS/RPG roots.
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Who cares? That ratio doesn't influence the calculation a publisher needs to make: ...*SNIP*.
Yes, it does. Take out the casual gamer, and the re-hashes, uninspired sequels, and generally "bland" games will mostly disappear. Take a look back at PC gaming's golden years. Late 80's, early 90's...see the types of games we enjoyed back then? Ultima Underworld, Ultima's 6 & 7, Might & Magic 3-5, Wizardry 5/6/7...and who could forget the Goldbox games?
To sit here and say that the audience doesn't influence the publisher is sheer ignorance. I don't want to brag, but I'll have you know I worked for a major game publisher that isn't around anymore. I saw the company make good decisions, as well as bad ones. I know how they think, and how the industry as a whole thinks. I'm not trying to be mean here, but anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows that what you make is directly related to who is available to buy it.
You ever hear of BMW making cars with mudflaps and gun racks on the back? |
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Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:13 am |
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abbaon
Guest
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quote:
Take out the casual gamer, and the re-hashes, uninspired sequels, and generally "bland" games will mostly disappear. Take a look back at PC gaming's golden years. Late 80's, early 90's...see the types of games we enjoyed back then? Ultima Underworld, Ultima's 6 & 7, Might & Magic 3-5, Wizardry 5/6/7...and who could forget the Goldbox games?
Why should I want those games to disappear? The popularity of Quake 4 doesn't detract from my enjoyment of Civ IV. I don't need to belong to a gaming elite to feel good about myself.
Now, there's no accounting for taste, so you can disregard this part if you like, but I don't remember those games nearly as fondly as you do. World of Warcraft does generic fantasy and levelling drudgery far better than the M&M games. Any game released today with the mindless, broken, worse-than-Dungeon Siege combat of Ultima 7 would enjoy a swift and well-deserved death...and the Gold Box games, oy gevalt. No, my Golden Age of Gaming is right now.
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I'm not trying to be mean here, but anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows that what you make is directly related to who is available to buy it.
My point was that your intelligent hardcore gamers didn't disappear when the casual gamers arrived. They're still available to buy games, and people still make games for them. Matrix Games can coexist with EA Games. But I guess I'd better concede the argument before you insult my intelligence again. I couldn't handle that.
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You ever hear of BMW making cars with mudflaps and gun racks on the back?
Ever hear of people praying for the death of Chevrolet so that BMWs can return? No, because a large enough market can accomodate them both. |
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Sun Nov 06, 2005 2:32 am |
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Evil Timmy
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Posts: 46
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I really wouldn't be surprised to see more of what's going on in the realms of business software (or, at least, at the good places)...small indie teams who are incubated by publishers or bigger devs like Valve, and who work independently on their own idea. When they've got a reasonably decent proof of concept, the developer can decide to pick up on it or not. And, from a financial standpoint, it makes sense. If you have ten dev teams on a $250,000 budget each, chances are at least one will have an idea that feels like a winner and can be further developed. On the other hand, a single dev team on a (now ridiculously small) $2.5m budget that's expected to put out an A-level title is always a big risk, judging by the small percentage of games that actually make a profit. It works out for everyone; developers have far more opportunities to get real work done and get the pay and experience that brings, publishers can hedge their bets by having many varied teams working on their own unique concepts, and gamers (casual and hardcore) see more games with interesting and fresh ideas broadly available. |
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Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:01 am |
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