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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
Geez, all this fun has me curious. Like you Dhruin, I thought it was tactical strat game, period. You know, maybe some RPG elements here and there, these days everyones tossing in a little str and dex or a merchant or two to lure the dice rollers in.
...and I never played Silent Storm, but since Hammer n Sickle came out it's "Silent Storm this, Silent Storm that", it must have been a great game for the rabid following it seems to have. While Ive come to be repelled by the thought of another WW2 FPS, I do like WW2 strategy quite a bit. I almost want to go play SS before I try this one out, but Im gonna dl the demo for H&S just to see what all the commotion is about.
I'll admit I was pretty interested at first, but avoided it partly because of bad reviews, and partly because Ive got about 4 other games im playing atm and that pushed H&S into the same cautiously curious territory as Cabela's Big Game Hunter 2005 (ie, the back burner until jewel case price)
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:39 am |
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Acleacius
King of the Realms
Joined: 24 Dec 2002
Posts: 453
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Roqua
I really have difficulty see what your talking about when you say open ended, maybe you say that from a TB/Strat, perspective?
This game cleary is on Rails, while there are a few different alternitives to achieve different mission, I dont call that open ended.
You can only go to the map they want you to go to and are Not allowed to go to any map you want whenever you want, it is not even Close.
I.e. first map one exit leads to one map choice. second map is your first decision which branches you to either one of two maps based on your decision, third map only on choice again.
Hell your even forced to murder an innocent before you can even leave hte map on one of the two choices the other choice is agreeing to murder a nonhositle?
Plus if you dont act like they want you to act or do what they want you to within a certian time, which the player rarely knows, they fail you set you off the MQ.
If you dont knowwhat to look for you wont even know you have been Forced on a fail path and may neve know why?
Objectives are not clear, game tracks info on the player which is never revaled.
The reviewer of this article clearly is confused Fallout and Planscape both the player didnt have a clue what was going on, here is a highly trained military offical whom trained for his mission, had access to maps and intel Before his mission.
It is hard to believe this is even printed in a review. 
As far as the majority of reviews
"People fundamentally do not like a game as open and ambiguous as H&S"
Could you please be specific?
What is with the constant references to KotOR?
"That number is small, and patches aren’t going to make people have good taste."
I is hard to even know what your point is, mostly seems like you want to knock people and games around that dont like what you like? 
I.e example who in the hell thinks this is spose to play like Diablo. 
Please where is the 99% more RPG than other games, I have played this thing about 5 times, you just keep making generaltions?
Dhruin and xSamhainx I am not saying dont get this game, I just dont know what game Roqua and Naked-Lunch are talking about, it does not seem like the game I have been playing and helping on the offical forums for two months.
It clearly has much potienal, but maybe if all you care about playing the most Difficult game then harrasing others about it then maybe Rogua is right. 
Last edited by Acleacius on Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:05 am |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
what are you babbling on about still?
Youre sounding as incoherant and futile as an overtired child tugging on his mom's coattail at the store, pointing all over the place and babbling... 
Anyhow, I played the demo a while and really thought it was a pretty cool game. Lots of interaction, I flipped out at one point and got me and she throwing lead around in the forester's cabin. He turned around and knocked Moshe's head clean off for some reason, then pumped a few bullets into him! Then he spun around and I saw the Himmler in him coming out, but it was our turn... So we took him out, then I ran out and blew the oxygen tank or whatever and blew the floor out. Went down there and opened up on the wine kegs, then on the other oxygen tanks BOOM!
The bodies from upstairs came raining down!
I grabbed a sweet machinegun in the rubble, and went to town tearing the place upstairs apart, what was left of it anyway. Just checking to see how much stuff I could interect with, and wow, it sure is a lot. I thought the voice acting/ story if you will wasnt bad (granted it was only a small demo), yeah you know a bit corny, but i actually liked it.
Tho I did notice a bug as old Forester proved there was life in the old boy yet, rattling on about "lets get going to town" or "better get goin" or something long after he had assumed room temperature.
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:26 am |
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Acleacius
King of the Realms
Joined: 24 Dec 2002
Posts: 453
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"Youre sounding as incoherant"
So you think I am babbling , ah?
If this seem incoherant you must be easily confused.
I actually like the Voice acting, the broken English seemed perfect to me.
Yeah, some the best things about the game are the sound effects for the weapons, they did an excellent job, the graphics and the destruable buildings very fun and very cool. |
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Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:31 am |
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abbaon
Head Merchant
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 64
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Out here in the wider world, our games get better every year. But you guys refuse to abandon your turn-based RPG ghetto, so you have to root around around in the trash for something you can use, telling each other that the nauseating garbage you find is "an acquired taste". I can't think of a point to attach to that image, but I wanted to share it with you anyway. Enjoy. |
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Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:21 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
quote:
Originally posted by Acleacius
Roqua
I really have difficulty see what your talking about when you say open ended, maybe you say that from a TB/Strat, perspective?
This game cleary is on Rails, while there are a few different alternitives to achieve different mission, I dont call that open ended.
You can only go to the map they want you to go to and are Not allowed to go to any map you want whenever you want, it is not even Close.
I.e. first map one exit leads to one map choice. second map is your first decision which branches you to either one of two maps based on your decision, third map only on choice again.
Hell your even forced to murder an innocent before you can even leave hte map on one of the two choices the other choice is agreeing to murder a nonhositle?
Plus if you dont act like they want you to act or do what they want you to within a certian time, which the player rarely knows, they fail you set you off the MQ.
If you dont knowwhat to look for you wont even know you have been Forced on a fail path and may neve know why?
Objectives are not clear, game tracks info on the player which is never revaled.
The reviewer of this article clearly is confused Fallout and Planscape both the player didnt have a clue what was going on, here is a highly trained military offical whom trained for his mission, had access to maps and intel Before his mission.
It is hard to believe this is even printed in a review.
As far as the majority of reviews
"People fundamentally do not like a game as open and ambiguous as H&S"
Could you please be specific?
What is with the constant references to KotOR?
"That number is small, and patches aren’t going to make people have good taste."
I is hard to even know what your point is, mostly seems like you want to knock people and games around that dont like what you like?
I.e example who in the hell thinks this is spose to play like Diablo.
Please where is the 99% more RPG than other games, I have played this thing about 5 times, you just keep making generaltions?
Dhruin and xSamhainx I am not saying dont get this game, I just dont know what game Roqua and Naked-Lunch are talking about, it does not seem like the game I have been playing and helping on the offical forums for two months.
It clearly has much potienal, but maybe if all you care about playing the most Difficult game then harrasing others about it then maybe Rogua is right.
I agree about the maps. Its not a seamless world. I don’t mind though.
I mention Kotor only when I mention easy combat, because kotor had super easy combat. While H&S’s combat isn’t hard or overly difficult (especially on normal difficulty), it is or can be challenging, especially compared to kotor on difficult the setting.
Personally, I think the voices are bad. But like in divdiv it can be good while being bad. Or better than it would be if they took it more seriously. But I also like good voice acting, like Bloodlines.
I really like the poor journal. It is poor, but good enough for what it is supposed to do. I understand that people have higher expectations for journals nowadays, and I can see why this could be a game stopper for some. My expectations on UI are much higher now. I couldn’t play through Buck Rogers last time I tried, even though that was my favorite game at one time, due only to the UI. So I agree, if you want a journal that is more than just barely serviceable, this game isn’t the game for you.
You are 100% wrong about the open-endedness of the game though (not in relation to the maps). This openness is why I haven’t besten the game. I can’t decide what to do and keep going back to redo things. Sometimes something happens that I don’t think I want because of the choices I made before, so I go back and do it all over. It is actually very annoying, way too many choices.
I have a real problem getting through really open games, that’s why I want them to be Ironman only. Not because I like Ironman, but because I won’t reload and retry 50000 times. This is where kotor 1 shined in my opinion. You had small maps and 100% direction. I can get through games like that without reloading once. I am bad with ambiquous choices in games. I get all nervous and worried.
_________________
Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:52 am |
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Acleacius
King of the Realms
Joined: 24 Dec 2002
Posts: 453
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Bummer another review, with the majority view of, really liking the game but pointing out problems.
I am just not sure that 40+ reviews could be all inexperienced TB gamers.
Most of the people whom even know about this game are TB and SS fans.
Like I said I would have never known about H & S if you had not recomended it, Roqua. :rpsalute:
I know for a fact that the only 2 decisions that matter to the story, these are Novik's words.
Most of the choices are to maximize XP or to get additional team members, which I enjoy as it makes the game richer in dept but does not give story arcs or map arcs.
Much of what we have done, to run around max XP, helped build, over the 2 months after release, a very detailed walkthrough and non spoiler verison.
I.e I found for the walkthrough that you got bigger XP bonuses the more team members you had.
So, I figured ways to delay main missions, while getting extra team members early as possible.
I don’t mind obscure Journals at all, but relative clarity is important for without it you couldn't even tell a comprehensive and cohesive story.
Minor spoilers of first map/village.
I.e. If you refuse the first story arc, you are forced to fight, then you receive a Journal update to leave the map, but you can not leave the map.
You are still in combat mode.
So there are still enemies, right?
Where?
Nothing outside attacking, no troops nothing?
The Journal tells you to leave but the game will not let you.
Search all the houses, nothing.
Talk to all the people, nothing.
Then you try the mother in-law and she is trying to shoot you with a stun gun?
Why, she couldn't possibly seen the fight and the stun gun has no real effect and she is insane.
What should I kill this crazy lady whom would be hostle whether you killed Knorad or NOT?
Don’t believe me go talk to her when you first get there and ask her questions, she goes hostile but doesn’t really do any damage.
Well guess what, you have to murder her to leave.
Clear and cohesive, right?
Not really, not even realistic.
End Spoilers
It took Novik 6 months to created this game, which I believe is remarkable achievement. 
I do not see sited in reviews which is a real disappointment to me, since it shows his achievements based on time allotted.
This is why I am pushing for a through patch as possible and believe re-reviews are quite possible.
I have seen it on many games since I was just playing it Redemption comes to mind.
It got really slammed on release, not allowing saves anytime and poor AI, they released a patch and got new reviews based on the patch.
NakedLunch
I asked BlunterII, he said you did not ask to print his Flowchart in your review, as upcoming journalist consider asking next time, it journalistic courtesy.  |
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Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:35 am |
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txa1265
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 390
Location: Marlborough, MA USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Acleacius
It took Novik 6 months to created this game, which I believe is remarkable achievement.
I do not see sited in reviews which is a real disappointment to me, since it shows his achievements based on time allotted.
What is the saying (forgot the source) "A late game is only late until released, but a bad game is bad forever"?
Not saying that H&S is 'bad', but it clearly is flawed, and could have used considerably more polish. Being quick to release something isn't necessarily something to brag about, unless it is top notch.
quote:
Originally posted by Acleacius
This is why I am pushing for a through patch as possible and believe re-reviews are quite possible.
I have seen it on many games since I was just playing it Redemption comes to mind.
Really? Can you actually cite a source of a re-review based on a patch? I could possibly see one based on the Dungeon Lords 'Collectors Edition', because they are selling it as a separate entity. But most places require games be reviewed as shipped because many games don't auto-update or somehow make users get the latest patch. Therefore, the release version is what many users experience.
quote:
Originally posted by Acleacius
It got really slammed on release, not allowing saves anytime and poor AI, they released a patch and got new reviews based on the patch.
Unfortunately the game is what it is - several here see the depth of the combat system and are willing to forgive any other flaws, which is fine. But then a couple of posts have insinuated an almost elitist message into it, in a sort of 'if you don't get it we can't help you, go back to your mindless little Diablo clicky-click' ... that isn't ok.
Hammer & Sickle has fascinated me for a while, and while I wouldn't recommend it to most, I enjoyed it for the most part and am glad I bought it ... but I have no delusions about it.
Mike
_________________
Dopelar effect (n.) The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
Check out my blog. |
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Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:26 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
My copied arrived yesterday. I am very, very early in the game but it certainly doesn't impress early...your wife is on the way, right Roqua?
Let me stress that I have barely started so a brilliant game might be just around the corner and I acknowledge that I may just need to adjust to the game.
What's with that first "mission"? I crawl towards the fence, cut the wire, crawl through slowly, check as carefully as possible for enemies, crawl forward...bang, dead. One shot, never saw a thing.
Reload. Same thing.
OK, I must be doing something wrong so I *really* take my time, check for enemies, move from cover to cover. Bang. Dead. This time I caught the flash of the icon to represent the enemy that I still never see for the half-a-second before the reload screen comes up, so at least I sort of know where he is.
I try different paths and locations. Bang. Dead.
Eventually I try getting through the fence and then just running for the end. That works. WTF? What sort of strategy is that? I get single-shot picked off by someone I can't see unless I just run through the map like a streaker at the football?
So, choose the only location on the map, see a cut scene and I'm crouching 10 feet away from 6 enemies. Not having any idea what is going on and assuming I can't take on 6 guys, I decide to crawl away. Combat starts, a looooooooong turn ensues with the camera jumping around the map disjointedly for other units and the 6 unload into me. Reload # 10 and I've actually played about 30 seconds, when I take out cut-scenes and other non-interactive crap.
Monday is the only weekday I have the time to play (and I only have 90mins - 2 hours). Why didn't I just play Avernum 4?
I'm probably missing a whole bunch of stuff, so my fault. A simple hint to level designers - let the player get used to the gameplay and controls for a few minutes before you single-shot kill them.
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:13 pm |
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txa1265
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 390
Location: Marlborough, MA USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
Let me stress that I have barely started so a brilliant game might be just around the corner
... or what might be around the corner is an enemy with a baseball bat and you without the action points to escape
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
What's with that first "mission"?
Did you do the tutorial? That does help a bit, but your strategy is what worked with me as well. So my 2nd time through I tried several options, none of which worked, and ended up just repeating that.
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
Why didn't I just play Avernum 4?
BTW - check the credits and you'll see what else I've been playing lately
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
I'm probably missing a whole bunch of stuff, so my fault. A simple hint to level designers - let the player get used to the gameplay and controls for a few minutes before you single-shot kill them.
That is pretty frustrating, and I've been seeing it more and more. I'm playing 'generation of chaos' on the PSP, and the start gives me the story mode to choose and I choose the 'for beginners' option, and get dumped to the interface which has no tutorial, only 3-letter commands (this *is* a portable game!), and a guy who says 'I should show you the combat basics', but never does ... woeful.
Mike
_________________
Dopelar effect (n.) The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
Check out my blog. |
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Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:40 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
Yes, I saw your credit in Avernum 4 - nice work.
So I didn't miss anything? You just run through that first map. That's atrocious level design. It's a pointless level anyway - nothing to learn or discover, no combat and no chance to orient yourself. And it appears there's absolutely no logical, intelligent tactics to be applied.
Yes, I did the tutorial and I played the demo for SS, so I feel reasonably comfortablw with the game engine. I just think a TB strategy game that has me running through a map is poorly conceived. Early days - we'll see. Avernum 4 definitely looks more enticing at this early stage, however.
_________________
Editor @ RPGDot |
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Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:14 pm |
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Acleacius
King of the Realms
Joined: 24 Dec 2002
Posts: 453
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"Being quick to release something isn't necessarily something to brag about, unless it is top notch. "
It is more of a reference to what was accomplished in a short time, even with beening forced out early by the Pub, cause of the holiday season.
I try to stay clear of blaming Devs for the fault and greed of Pubs.
"Really? Can you actually cite a source of a re-review based on a patch?"
You mean you want the name of the site that re-reviewed a game based on a patch, even if you dont beleive my example, when you sited a more recient example,?
GameBanshee has re-review DLCE.
"But then a couple of posts have insinuated ......."
Sure the hell wasn't me.
"but I have no delusions about it."
Sounds like we are in agreement about it, if you don't believe that, read this thread.
Dhruin
"One shot, never saw a thing. Reload. Same thing. "
Umm, yeah that is frustrating as hell and bogus.
In the cutscene they say all the soldiers will be at the gate near the tank, Bull.
It turns out to be a timer issue, waiting a min for patrol to move.
I stayed as far as possible (on the edge, prone) and was shot still several times.
This is a persfect example of how they TELL you one thing but screw you cause they actually do something else.
"'m probably missing a whole bunch of stuff"
It is not your fault.
Grenade is very handy here and knife (fast attack) then get to corner wait, turn and attack.
Make sure you get all the ammo from the guns when you win and leave 3 of the 4 rifkes on the ground, keeping one for youself.
Then go talk to the guy in front of the house accross from where the execution took place, becaue they help you, in the coming storm.
Dhruin, I humbly suggest you check your custom settings, if you did not previously and set the game to Easy, Normal is NOT Normal it is HARD and Easy setting is actually Normal.
It is more a matter of being able to enjoy the game, which is that frustrating very often.
Edit
txa1265, in case it is important, I just did a Google of Vampire Redemption 1.1 Review.
Not the one I remember from 4 years ago, but I am guessing there are at least 5 more in the 26k hits I got.
http://www.gamesfirst.com/reviews/greg/vampire/vampire.html
"First and foremost, this review focuses on game performance after downloading the Version 1.1 patch. Before this patch was available, V:TM Redemption's most egregious flaw was the lack of any manual save function" |
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Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:19 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
My copied arrived yesterday. I am very, very early in the game but it certainly doesn't impress early...your wife is on the way, right Roqua?
Let me stress that I have barely started so a brilliant game might be just around the corner and I acknowledge that I may just need to adjust to the game.
What's with that first "mission"? I crawl towards the fence, cut the wire, crawl through slowly, check as carefully as possible for enemies, crawl forward...bang, dead. One shot, never saw a thing.
Reload. Same thing.
OK, I must be doing something wrong so I *really* take my time, check for enemies, move from cover to cover. Bang. Dead. This time I caught the flash of the icon to represent the enemy that I still never see for the half-a-second before the reload screen comes up, so at least I sort of know where he is.
I try different paths and locations. Bang. Dead.
Eventually I try getting through the fence and then just running for the end. That works. WTF? What sort of strategy is that? I get single-shot picked off by someone I can't see unless I just run through the map like a streaker at the football?
So, choose the only location on the map, see a cut scene and I'm crouching 10 feet away from 6 enemies. Not having any idea what is going on and assuming I can't take on 6 guys, I decide to crawl away. Combat starts, a looooooooong turn ensues with the camera jumping around the map disjointedly for other units and the 6 unload into me. Reload # 10 and I've actually played about 30 seconds, when I take out cut-scenes and other non-interactive crap.
Monday is the only weekday I have the time to play (and I only have 90mins - 2 hours). Why didn't I just play Avernum 4?
I'm probably missing a whole bunch of stuff, so my fault. A simple hint to level designers - let the player get used to the gameplay and controls for a few minutes before you single-shot kill them.
quote:
Dhruin, even if you do not like the WW2 setting (a setting I cannot stand either), you will like this rpg. I guarantee it. If you get it and actually give it a good try and do not like it, I will send you my wife (or maybe I should send her as a punishment for you not getting it?). Either way, looks like you’re stuck with her.
Right out of my mouth. I wish my wife would go but I think she likes destroying my brain too much.
I think the thinking for the first part was to show you that you are a stupid cherry and not up to taking on some challenges. I played that part a lot more before I gave up, and was actually able to do pretty well. But I think it might be impossible. In real life a new soldier probably isn’t up to taking on a bunch more experienced guys. And hitting a running target is a lot harder than a guy high-crawling. I actually tried just crawling around I think. I am not sure if it was the same part. I do remember redoing a very tough battle over and over and finally giving up on it. The skill trees are really there for a reason. Maybe that is bad design; I was annoyed with the game until I got a little way in. I actually almost stopped playing.
If you can put up with it for a little while you will be rewarded. And I don’t want my guarantee to mean crap, and I definitely gave my guarantee that you would like it. If you play it till lvl 5 (that isn’t asking much is it?) and still don’t like it and don’t thank me for recommending it, I will send you enough to cover the cost of the game (including shipping) and $1 for every hour of your time wasted on it up to a maximum of $100 total.
A guarantee is like giving your word, if you explicitly tell someone something and couple that with your word and that leads him to make a bad decision, you are ultimately responsible for that bad decision. You might be a nice guy and not want to hold me to my word, but that is silly, and I don’t go for that hippy crap. If I didn’t want to be held responsible I shouldn’t have made a guarantee. There might be a chance that you give the game a good try and not like, and in that case I have to be held fiscally responsible. So don’t be all gay and not try and make me pay if you don’t like it after giving it a good try. You can put the money into buying a new x-box 360 or be a philanthropist and pay it out to the staff here.
_________________
Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:04 am |
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txa1265
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 390
Location: Marlborough, MA USA |
I will say what I said when I recently submitted my review after finishing my second time through ... I really liked the combat, and enjoyed it enough that my $20 felt well spent. But not enough to recommend it to anyone but a turn-based nut who doesn't mind buggy games.
... which I suppose I just happen to be ...
Mike
_________________
Dopelar effect (n.) The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
Check out my blog. |
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Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:45 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
quote:
Originally posted by txa1265
I will say what I said when I recently submitted my review after finishing my second time through ... I really liked the combat, and enjoyed it enough that my $20 felt well spent. But not enough to recommend it to anyone but a turn-based nut who doesn't mind buggy games.
... which I suppose I just happen to be ...
Mike
Why wouldn't a roleplay nut like all the choices and freedom the game offers? Isn't not being able to just buy weapons willy nilly, and haveing to make connections and befriend dealers pure genius? Why wouldn't people looking for a more realistic game experience like it?
I could go on and on, but I'll never get it. The game is pure gold on so many levels.
_________________
Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:23 pm |
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