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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
Heya, its me, JemyM.
This time its me, all alone, no party to defend, with a freedom beyond imagination...
After general-coolness experiences with monks in other games I decided to go for a monk/assassin/ninja type of character. I mean, Kung Fu, thats me. In my mind at least...
Now after some time playing I do wonder if it was such a great idea.
I have heard that there are no such thing as critical strikes, and unnarmed blows (although extremely quick ones) only drains the stamina of a standing opponent. It can only hurt when the opponent is striked down.
Perhaps morrowind monks are not as ûbereffective as in other fantasygames... And I feel unable to kick.... 
Best Regards
JemyM |
Fri May 03, 2002 5:34 am |
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txiabxyooj
Fox Spirit
Joined: 06 Dec 2001
Posts: 971
Location: here, there & everywhere |
JemyM good to see your still posting! i have toyed around with the hand to hand in MW & fear that it leaves much to be desired. i began with a monk type of character and quickly decided to change to a sword mage type. i have to wonder...if your strength was higher would it permit you to do large amounts of damage with the hand to hand attacks? since i was using this skill early in the game my strength was relatively very low (ie 50ish). this might make the skill worth more.
_________________
"The origin of things, if things have an origin, cannot be revealed to me, if revealed at all, until I have travelled very far from it, and many revolutions of the sun must precede my first dawn. The light as it appears hides the candle." --Santayana
=member of the worshippers of the written word=
=member of the Non-flamers' guild= |
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Fri May 17, 2002 4:19 pm |
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Squeetard
Head Merchant
Joined: 05 May 2002
Posts: 61
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There is also a specific "hand to hand" skill you can gather . I don't use it, except once, I chugged a bottle of skooma and duked it out with the slave trader in Suran, what a blast! |
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Fri May 17, 2002 4:25 pm |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
Sadly no, I have gained 100 in most of the abilities/attributes regarding h2h and it is still not effective enough. I reccomend that you start to learn blunt weapons instead. Buy up to the maximum training value at the Fighters Guild, and then train the rest by doing "the real thing".
Thats the only way you can get better as a monk, and it is really something completely different.
Thoose monsters that could take several minutes to defeat with H2H falls on one single blow with a nice Orc Warhammer.
Best Regards
JemyM |
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Mon May 20, 2002 5:46 pm |
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txiabxyooj
Fox Spirit
Joined: 06 Dec 2001
Posts: 971
Location: here, there & everywhere |
then why bother with hand to hand at all? i think this is the core issue here. hand to hand in MW is a waste of time and energy. i would love for someone to correct me, but this seems to be the only answer.
_________________
"The origin of things, if things have an origin, cannot be revealed to me, if revealed at all, until I have travelled very far from it, and many revolutions of the sun must precede my first dawn. The light as it appears hides the candle." --Santayana
=member of the worshippers of the written word=
=member of the Non-flamers' guild= |
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Mon May 20, 2002 6:51 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Beating the piss out of mages so they can't cast spells is fun. Of course, taking them down with one chop from Chrysamere is more expedient...
Perhaps hand to hand isn't 'fantastic' enough. In real life what do you think would happen if a martial artist punched a guy in full metal armor? Clang. Sure, you might be able to flip him around a bit, get his helmet off, and crush his skull... but go ahead... implement THAT in a CRPG. 
I stopped trying for HTH 10 minutes into the game when I was soundly thrashed by a dark elf in the first town's lighthouse (didn't see her and took a dinner plate. Oops.).
There may be a monk game sometime in the future, but Morrowind is not it. Though if you complete the game using hand to hand you have some serious prestige and bragging rights to use on community forums...
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Mon May 20, 2002 7:14 pm |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
txiabxyooj
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It is not fun to discover after 7 days that your initial attempt to create a interesting character was all in vain.
There are two reasons whining about it here in the forum is a good thing
1) To warn others about it
2) To be proven wrong
As long as people are grabbing Morrowind, there will be thoose that wants to try out to play a Monk in it, so if option 2 becomes real, that is a good thing.
EverythingXen
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Uhm, there have been several games that have an excellent 'monk' concept, complete with awesome martial arts... Baldurs Gate & Wizardry 8 for example.
So why cant we assume that Morrowind would had followed the same concept when we created our Morrowind character?
And uh, you dont punch a guy with full plate armor... You kick away his leg and watch him fall as a cardhouse. And yes, that is reality, and will probably require some training in Martial Arts to avoid his 2h sword he's waving at you while attempting to do it. Some other alternatives would be a stright kick towards his stomach to pump him from air, you try to get as much punch with a Mace as you can with a stright kick... A trained human kick can be compared to lying down with 300 kilo's of concrete placed on your stomach. Even if there's a chestplate in the way, you will most likely put him to the ground.
Or why not simple get behind him and twist his neck? I mean, with that heavy armor he aint gonna move as quick as a unarmored monk. And if all else fails, a pair of fingers in his eyes works just fine, or hitting his nose with your palm... Thats attacks called 'critical hits' by using RPG terms.
Best Regards
JemyM |
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Mon May 20, 2002 8:01 pm |
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Squeetard
Head Merchant
Joined: 05 May 2002
Posts: 61
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quote:
Originally posted by JemyM
txiabxyooj
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And if all else fails, a pair of fingers in his eyes works just fine, or hitting his nose with your palm... Thats attacks called 'critical hits' by using RPG terms.
Best Regards
JemyM
Where I'm from, its called the "3 stooges".
Oooop ooooop! Doing. |
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Mon May 20, 2002 8:11 pm |
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Guest
Guest
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It should be easy to modify unarmed fighting to cause "normal" damage. I can't see how this would be unbalancing. |
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Mon May 20, 2002 8:57 pm |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
If I make a comparision of how many blows I need to drop someones stamina to 0, with the common 1 blow required with a heavy warhammer... H2H is very weak, even if it made normal damage.
When it is like now there is at least a chance that they are slowing down becouse of their lack of stamina...
What H2H needs is Critical Damage... Preferably a percentual value based on the H2H skill or another skill.
H2H needs the possibility to have a slight chance of dropping an opponent in 1 blow, AND the possibility to also FINISH an lying opponent in 1 blow.
Instead of taking 10 heavy blows to drop a common opponent, it should be 1-5... It all depends on criticals...
Best Regards
JemyM |
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Mon May 20, 2002 9:58 pm |
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Guest
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If you ask me, your lucky HtH does anything at all.
How cold someone take on a dude who has a sword, with their hands? |
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Mon May 20, 2002 10:14 pm |
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Cuular
Guest
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I am a levl 24 monk/thief, and have done it all with H2H and unarmored combat. In the beginning I was totally owned by anything other than a single non magic casting character. As I bought up potions of health and worked my unarmored skill up I got to where I was able to take 2 or 3 normal melee's on or 1 magic caster.
It seems from my experience that the critical hit has a better chance of landing if it is done using the stab damage motion and starting from a sneak. For example, I sneak up to the monster, hold down the attack button, so it charges up the heavy damage and release it while still moving so I get the stabbing motion vesus the chop motion. When the critical strike lands, it puts them on the ground in one hit. Then I just have the 15 hits to finish them off.
Do I wish it was different, OH YEAH. To have to "kill" someone twice, instead of once is a lot more work, and against city guards, I get carpal tunnel syndrome beating on the attack button. I know, I know city guards shouldn't be attacked, but when they actually do see me as I am looting the chests in the guard towers, what's a sneak to do? reload the game to dodge the faction hit. Nope it is called b i t c h slap the guards dead.
Anyway it is doable, but oh so much more work than weapons. With a shortsowrd at skill 6 I kill things in 2 hits that takes 50 or 60 with h2h at 100.
I think that h2h should do some regular damage combined with the fatigue suckage. I mean have you ever watched boxing or other contact sports on TV. A good hit draws blood. Repeated hits draw even more blood. And that is fighting with gloves on. Good solid knuckles without the padding that have been honed with years(days) of beating on things should be able to do some real damage.
But it is still fun to try and run around 3 or 4 things beating them all down to fatigued and then slowy killing them a hit at a time between them waking up and you knocking them back down again. WAY more challenge than a good weapon.
Cuu |
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Mon May 20, 2002 10:17 pm |
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dude
Guest
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Let's get as real as a fantasy game will allow. Finger jabbing a metal helmet is a stupid idea...I don't care if your Bruce Lee incarnate. Punching
or kicking a plate cuirass will damage hands and feet WAY more than chest or internals. There's an excellent reason why martial arts developed the way they did where they did. H2H against armored soldiers is not wise regardless of level. So what if your a 30th level monk/thief whatever.
Try a one inch punch on a 30th level warrior in armor and packing serious steel (or better). You wouldn't try it twice unless the guy couldn't stop laughing long enough to cleave you in two. |
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Tue May 21, 2002 12:28 am |
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Guest
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I tried hand to hand and actually liked the fact that it took a bit more work to down someone. However, I think that what really screws H2H is the fact that the enemy doesn't stay down long enough. If you could knock them out cold for say 2 or 3 minutes, it would be a great skill. My original intention was to try and subdue them and put some slave bracelets on em Well it ddnt work  |
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Tue May 21, 2002 3:38 am |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
Cuular
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I have defeated opponents like Deadra Lords and Golden Saints with H2H, but to compare that to taken them out with a trained weapon, H2H is not an option. However, sometimes I have actually suceeded better with H2H against really tough opponents since H2H is alot faster than a weapon (makes it easier to get-in hit get-out get-in hit etc), but this happens rarely, and is probably just becouse I am 70 in blunt weapons while I am 100 in H2H (easier to hit... Or rather ALWAYS hit).
The challange was fun at first, but after spending double the time to reach halfways into the game compared to my friend 'the assassin' with his short blade.
dude
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As real as a fantasy game will allow? Ever played Baldurs Gate, Dungeon & Dragons & Wizardry 8? My Wizardry 8 monk could land 6-8 hits, have a chance of critical chance on each hit, and made 20-30hp per hit... In comparision to my focused samurai that could only on rare occasions do up to 5 attacks but normally did 2-3, even if she where nearly double the level.
I took Monk as my option becouse Morrowind was a new game. I didnt wanted to start a character with a deeply planned concept until I really knew that it would work in Morrowind. With a Monk I didnt need to learn how to use armor/weapons and find out later that I have made something wrong, just practicing Unarmored and H2H and always getting better at thoose... Unfortunate, Morrowind had not implemented Monk's like other fantasy games.
"Punching or kicking a plate cuirass will damage hands and feet WAY more than chest or internals"
Have you ever tried to kick on a object that is not nailed to the ground? It does not hurt like it would feel when you kick a solid concrete wall. Chances are very high that whatever took the kick would fall to the ground if it weighted about 20-30 ibs.
"Try a one inch punch on a 30th level warrior in armor and packing serious steel (or better). You wouldn't try it twice unless the guy couldn't stop laughing long enough to cleave you in two."
You dont punch his armor. You punch HIM, in the face, in his eyes, or whatever spot he does not have any protection on. Even if you are very trained it will be difficult to put your sword into the 2-3 inch wide 'hole' in the opponents helmet (the hole that allows him to see the world around him). With a pair of fingers it is another case.
With a heavy armor (full plate?) it will be extremely difficult (Impossible I say) to hit someone that have taken a couple of years training evasion, especially if you wear a helmet that reduces your ray of vision (and if you dont wear a helmet, you have a larger vulnerable spot). I have seen a five to one fight where the one had 7 years of Aikido training, and that was fun.
Cuular
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I have defeated opponents like Deadra Lords and Golden Saints with H2H, but to compare that to taken them out with a trained weapon, H2H is not an option. However, sometimes I have actually suceeded better with H2H against really tough opponents since H2H is alot faster than a weapon (makes it easier to get-in hit get-out get-in hit etc), but this happens rarely, and is probably just becouse I am 70 in blunt weapons while I am 100 in H2H (easier to hit... Or rather ALWAYS hit).
The challange was fun at first, but after spending double the time to reach halfways into the game compared to my friend 'the assassin' with his short blade.
dude
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As real as a fantasy game will allow? Ever played Baldurs Gate, Dungeon & Dragons & Wizardry 8? My Wizardry 8 monk could land 6-8 hits, have a chance of critical chance on each hit, and made 20-30hp per hit... In comparision to my focused samurai that could only on rare occasions do up to 5 attacks but normally did 2-3, even if she where nearly double the level.
I took Monk as my option becouse Morrowind was a new game. I didnt wanted to start a character with a deeply planned concept until I really knew that it would work in Morrowind. With a Monk I didnt need to learn how to use armor/weapons and find out later that I have made something wrong, just practicing Unarmored and H2H and always getting better at thoose... Unfortunate, Morrowind had not implemented Monk's like other fantasy games.
"Punching or kicking a plate cuirass will damage hands and feet WAY more than chest or internals"
Have you ever tried to kick on a object that is not nailed to the ground? It does not hurt like it would feel when you kick a solid concrete wall. Chances are very high that whatever took the kick would fall to the ground if it weighted about 20-30 ibs.
"Try a one inch punch on a 30th level warrior in armor and packing serious steel (or better). You wouldn't try it twice unless the guy couldn't stop laughing long enough to cleave you in two."
You dont punch his armor. You punch HIM, in the face, in his eyes, or whatever spot he does not have any protection on. Even if you are very trained it will be difficult to put your sword into the 2-3 inch wide 'hole' in the opponents helmet (the hole that allows him to see the world around him). With a pair of fingers it is another case.
With a heavy armor (full plate?) it will be extremely difficult (Impossible I say) to hit someone that have taken a couple of years training evasion, especially if you wear a helmet that reduces your ray of vision (and if you dont wear a helmet, you have a larger vulnerable spot). I have seen a five to one fight where the one had 7 years of Aikido training, and that was fun.
Guest
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And at least allow to DISARM THEM when they are lying down... For gods sake, is that too much to ask?
Best Regards
JemyM |
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Tue May 21, 2002 6:52 am |
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