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| who do you typically side with |
| conservatives (republicans, right wingers) |
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47% |
[ 8 ] |
| liberals (democrats, left wingers) |
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29% |
[ 5 ] |
| neither |
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23% |
[ 4 ] |
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| Total Votes : 17 |
xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
Hmm, lets see here Rattler. I put up articles stating the very reason why I think your socialism view of nationalized health care health is bunk. Complete bunk and failure.PROOF. From the BBC, from the actual people its happening to in Europe. I dont think thats too transparent. Also, the idea that people being able to progress and make more money, that this would lead to a higher standard of living? More ability to enjoy their freedoms, is this the fallacy you see? No doubt if I walk over to you and take a 20 dollar bill out of your pocket, it would be called theft. Yet if the govt does it, thats ok. Im sorry, over and above taxation in my opinion is legalized THEFT.Im not for confiscatory taxation that inhibits personal growth. Im for letting people progress to the point to where they dont NEED government help. True compassion is not merely helping someone, its showing someone how to help themselves and giving them the opportunity to grow where they dont need help. Im all for supporting infrastucture and people who cannot afford some services should be able to get help, but blanket-statement *free for all* style govt leads to disaster! It inhibits a nations growth, stunts it. While you rail at us for transparent sophomoric arguments and such, you flat-out throughout this post have "quoted" people on things they never said. As far as Socialism and Communism goes, its my belief that Socialism is about 2 steps away from communism. They are all about taking the "status quo" as you so put it, to the lowest common denominator and not allowing for any deviation from it. I think your social ideas are wrong, because on a grand scale, where they are tried they FAIL. You may not put much stock in history, or in actual figures or events, but I do. I see the failure of nationalized ANYTHING, except military. You have your shangri-la of public schools here in the States as an example. Look at the public schools here vs the private schools, as far as achievement? As far as efficiency? As far as overalll results?The public schools are downright pitiful! This is a prime example. The private sector is the way to go, where there is competition, where there is a REASON to do better. Tell me *Im* wrong. I have the truth on my side, you have your feelings, and yearnings for mediocre heaven on earth. Im not calling the Libertarians or the Greens losers in a derogatory way, Im calling them Losers in a factual way. The winner of a running race is a winner, the loser is the loser. The winner of the Superbowl is the winner, the loser of the Superbowl is the loser. The winners in politics are the people who won elections, the losers are the ones who LOSE elections.And that they do, consistently. Just merely stating facts, not name calling. As I always say, put the bong down for 5 minutes and think about it. |
Sat Sep 21, 2002 8:34 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by -Rattlesnake-
Val, I was talking about this
@Sammy: 
I assume you were giving him a "thumbs up" for his "liberals are all lazy potheads who do nothing for society post" post.
My thumbs up was for him taking personal responsibility for his life and succeeding instead of wallowing in failure. I also like the fact that he doesn't blame others for his situation. Instead, he worked to change his situation for the better. Both of those things match my own personal philosophy. I'm sorry if you didn't want to look at the positive side of his post.
@Sammy: That's a technicality at best. Unfortunately, a technicality won't save you from being warned for what I see as poor behavior. Besides, calling someone a "loser" won't inspire them to change their opinion. So, STOP IT. I'm not asking anymore.
Yeesh. 
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
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Sat Sep 21, 2002 10:41 pm |
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-Rattlesnake-
Guards Lieutenant
Joined: 24 Mar 2002
Posts: 165
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Sam: Just because someone in a country says that something his or her country is doing is wrong doesn't mean it is. In America, people criticize equal rights for minorities and women. Does that mean that the 14th amendment is " complete bunk and failure?" Does that mean that we have to "eliminate the mud races?" Of course not.
Some people claim the nationalized healthcare system is a failure, some don't. Don't pretend that's someone's opinion is proof.
And also, you claim that taxation is theft. I counter that with: property is theft. Where does one get the right to claim something is theirs and theirs alone, and threaten anyone who wants to use it? If you accept this, you should be prepared to accept that someone stronger than you can take it away.
You claim that we'd be richer without taxes. Well, the truth is, we wouldn't be that much richer. First off, we'd need to pay for services that the government did before. We'd also have prices for food and gas skyrocketing because we weren’t subsidizing the oil companies and farmers. Also, with taxes eliminated, the economics of wages would change, so you wouldn't be making as much money as before.
iI should also be noted that private schools are simply too costly for low income families to afford. If they were affordable, and if the are better, then more people would go to them. The government is stopping private schools, the public is.
Also, I find it hilarious how you constantly rip on libertarians when your views correspond exactly with theirs.
And also, this right here is not a good debating tactic, FYI: "YOU'RE A LOSER! IT'S A FACT! I'M A WINNAR! I'M SO F*CKING COOL! I'M GONNA GO JACK OFF TO RERUNS OF GILLIGAN'S ISLAND, BYE BYE!" It's a good way to act like an obnoxious dick, but not a good way to convince someone they're wrong. |
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Sun Sep 22, 2002 6:40 pm |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
Umm, ok. Youve completely, as usual, misquoted or misinterpreted half my post.I disagree wholeheartedly with a few key points of Libertarian ideology, so no my views do not coincide with their losing views. I clearly stated that support of infrastructure, etc. is necessary, taxes are needed. *Excessive* taxation(which is what you need for your socialist paradise) that inhibits personal growth, is theft . I have yet to see one article praising nationalized healthcares success in Europe. Just where it is that people in America want to repeal the 14th amendment is beyond me. Get out of the 1940's rattler, this is the new millenium. You cant just throw in an oppressed woman or minority and have your ridiculous post suddenly ring true. Youre so full of leftist cliche's and denial you dont know which end is up. Noone owns anything? Whatever. Your complete post is almost incomprehensible, but ok, homer. Im not even going to argue with someone as off-kilter and out of it as you, Id have better success and quite frankly more fun arguing with one of the NPC's in Neverwinter Nights. Have a nice day, try not to overdose on whatever youre taking. Vote for Nader in 2004, haha
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Sun Sep 22, 2002 7:28 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by -Rattlesnake-
And also, you claim that taxation is theft. I counter that with: property is theft. Where does one get the right to claim something is theirs and theirs alone, and threaten anyone who wants to use it? If you accept this, you should be prepared to accept that someone stronger than you can take it away.
For someone that is quick to spout off about proper logic, this is so utterly off-base that I have no idea where it came from. Not only does property law have no bearing on taxation, but your assertion of just what must be accepted has little to do with property law. In fact, propertly law would combat the bad result which you point out.
Hey Val, time for a warning for the other side of the nonsense, eh?
Guys, what started out as a passionate and interesting argument is boiling down to so much mud slinging. Drop the nonsense and get back to facts. The debate was informative for a while there...
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Sun Sep 22, 2002 8:01 pm |
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-Rattlesnake-
Guards Lieutenant
Joined: 24 Mar 2002
Posts: 165
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I'm not going to bother with this thread anymore.
But I just have to ask Val, where is the long flame about how Sam single-handedly ruined the board? You sure had a nice one for me.
dteo:
The link between money and property is pretty thin. Sam says "the ebil government steal our money so we can't buy things," and I say "you steal from everyone when you use that money to buy things." I suppose the last sentance was a little stupid, however it's a valid arguement. |
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Sun Sep 22, 2002 9:33 pm |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
Nonsense, Rattler, pure nonsense. You should form a new political party called the Nonsensicratics. Vote for us, we believe you dont own anything! Vote for us, we believe you spending your own hard-earned money is theft! Vote for us, we'll make sure you have sub-par healthcare, horrible schools for your children, and enough guilt to keep you begging for mercy for generations to come! All your base are belong to us!(hehe)
quote:
last sentance was a little stupid, however it's a valid arguement.
Wrong, you have no valid argument whatsoever, you have nonsense that noone in his right mind would support. You say I ruin the board, I say I make it better by bringing to light such wacked-out theories as such. Lets us see what were up against.
P.S. Go Stoiber!
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Sun Sep 22, 2002 10:03 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
You know, xSamhainx, I mentioned that both sides of the argument were pretty well out of control. While my own political views are much closer to yours than Rattlesnake's, your "frothing at the mouth" pronouncements are far less convincing than the comments you began with. Such bile will convince nobody. Take a breath! Passion is a great thing, but be mindful of the difference between being passionate and being obnoxious. You've demonstrated in this thread the ability to do both- why not concentrate on the first?
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Sun Sep 22, 2002 10:57 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
Hey Val, time for a warning for the other side of the nonsense, eh?
Agreed.
quote:
Originally posted by -Rattlesnake-
But I just have to ask Val, where is the long flame about how Sam single-handedly ruined the board? You sure had a nice one for me.
I never said you've single-handedly ruined the boards. Although you and Sammy have managed to ruin this thread. I've said that you are a troller to which you have admitted is true. Btw, a moderator telling a user to behave themselves is not flaming. It's a disciplinary action. And in case you haven't noticed, I have told Sammy to behave himself and I have warned him. Now, you have been warned as well. If you both continue to test the limits of my patience then you will both be shown to the door.
Anymore nonsense mud-slinging in this thread will earn two warnings for that user and I'll lock this thread, because if you won't play nice, then I'll ground you. Clear?
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Mon Sep 23, 2002 5:06 am |
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-Rattlesnake-
Guards Lieutenant
Joined: 24 Mar 2002
Posts: 165
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When did I ever admit to begin a troll? I said that by your wacky standards of flaming (ie, having a personality,) I was a flamer. And if you’ll recall, this all started when some people went into one of my threads and basically said "no one give a sh!t about your opinion, you're stupid." One of the ma was mod, and she dressed it up nice, but you can be polite and insult someone at the same time.
The next time I'm on the board, I said that banning swearing was bad idea. You (or one of your clones) wrote out a gigantic flame, where you accused me of "starting the downward spiral" of the RPGDot boards, and claimed I ruined the Morrowind boards, which I have never posted on. EVER. All this for getting p!ssed at someone who basically says that my opinion is completely retarded.
Sam basically does the same thing. I attempted to respect his opinion, however he responded with insults, which he continued to do after you asked him to stop. However, for some reason, I am the one who is universally hated on these boards, mainly because you and your clones have labeled me as a troll. But you don't condemn Sam as an evil troll who is destroying the boards. Instead, you cheer his hate-mongering posts. You did admonish him a little, to your credit, however that's quite a bit different than the reception I got here.
_________________
Wake this one unto the stinging lash
Every man rise from the ash
Each betrayal begins with trust
Every man returns to dust
-Phish, Farmhouse |
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Mon Sep 23, 2002 8:25 pm |
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txiabxyooj
Fox Spirit
Joined: 06 Dec 2001
Posts: 971
Location: here, there & everywhere |
quote:
Originally posted by -Rattlesnake-
First off, my opinion cannot be "wrong," seeing as morals, opinions and viewpoints are all subjective.
sorry, but i just have to respond to this. a moral, opinion or viewpoint can be wrong & often are wrong. those are all judgement based concepts and therefore have the potential to be wrong. for example if someone believes something based on misinformation or incorrect information, then his/her opinion is wrong. it isn't based on proper beliefs etc & thereby becomes invalid. personally i feel we can & ought to judge the morals, opinions and viewpoints of others as well as our own. that is how you progress in the world. by replacing incorrect (wrong) opinions with the right ones--i am not talking about absolute values here because often the right opinion or belief changes in relation to our position in any given situation. i don't know what philosophy you espouse (i suspect you might be a relativist...am i wrong?) but this shows a naive understanding of morals, opinions, etc. if you really believed this statement i don't think you would be having a disagreement with butt because you would view his opinion as equal to your own (since in your own words no opinion can be wrong. even the opinion that we ought to kill all muslims or christians, because in your own words, no opinion can be wrong). your perpensity to disagree with others is a perfect example of your belief that others opinions are fallable but yours are somehow above reproach.
_________________
"The origin of things, if things have an origin, cannot be revealed to me, if revealed at all, until I have travelled very far from it, and many revolutions of the sun must precede my first dawn. The light as it appears hides the candle." --Santayana
=member of the worshippers of the written word=
=member of the Non-flamers' guild= |
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Mon Sep 23, 2002 8:46 pm |
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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
There have been many discussion on these forums and lately the political ones are getting a complete mess. For some reason there have to be two sides that have to fight each other to the death. When that happens there is no room left for a discussion anymore and the only purpose is to win, where everything is allowed to reach that goal, especially as both sides claim to own the truth.
I'll simply start with saying this and closing this thread. If this doesn't help then I just revoke the rights to discuss things any further for those who think this is a battle.
_________________
Kewl quotes:
I often have an odd sense of humor - Roach
Why quote somebody else, think of something yourself. - XeroX
...you won't have to unbookmark this site, we'll unbookmark you. - Val
Reports Myrthos for making me scared and humbled at the mere sight of his name - kayla |
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Tue Sep 24, 2002 12:23 am |
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