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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
| Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion - Gender Inequality Discussions |
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I'll try to play this with a straight bat and leave the comments to you. Gamers with Jobs <a href="http://www.passthepress.com/?p=251" target="_blank">Pass the Press</a> blog has picked up on some discussion about claimed gender inequality in Oblivion. The GwJ article lays it all out pretty well but in essence, noticing (via interesting wording in the strategy guide) that there are slightly different stats between male and female avatars for some races, <a href="http://ninthwavedesigns.typepad.com/guilded_lilies/2006/03/gender_politics.html" target="_blank">Gilded Lilies</a> had this to say:<blockquote><em>I know it isn't everyone's fantasy that there should be more gender equality but it is one of my fantasies. It would have been a small thing for the developers to change, but knowing that my choice to play a female RPG character puts me at a disadvantage at the start of the game makes it a little less fun for me. I'll forget about it soon enough since I will be having a great time otherwise, but for once, wouldn't it be nice to be able to start out on equal footing, if only in Tamriel?</em></blockquote>GwJ sought a comment from Bethsoft and Pete Hines had this response:<blockquote><em>All the races are balanced equally for each gender. Talking about power design is different than balance. Essentially, for each race both genders have the exact same stats except for two: one where the male has a 10-point bonus, one where the female has a 10-point bonus. For some races, there isn’t any difference at all.</em></blockquote> |
Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:03 pm |
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Tenkahubu
Guest
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This is pathetic. Men are (generally) physically stronger than women. This is not sexism but objective fact. How is it that some people reach adulthood without learning this simple point?
Durr, Oblivion doesnt have an Asian style fantasy race for me to play so I guess that makes it racist too, right?
[/quote]For PC Oblivion players looking to level the playing field, there’s already at least one remedy available: a mod that equalizes racial attributes according to a single gender.
quote:
PC PC gaming 
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Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:53 pm |
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Guest
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Man this is ridiculous .. People have nothng better to do than write these BS articles?
Elder Scroll always had variations btw female and male character, where the females are advantage in one stat of a specifc race and the male one has more points in another stat.
What a bunch of bull .. if you don't like it .. open the damn editor and create your own version of a race as you see fit .. It's not like you have to learn a programming language or anything closer to that kind of stuff .. It's easy and made for fan to create their own content with ease ..
So instead of putting a crappy article on the web .. go ahead and open the damn editor already.
Man .. never enough fools in the world. |
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Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:19 pm |
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TheMadGamer
High Emperor
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 487
Location: Southern California |
Just chalk this up to the complain-first, think-it-through-never internet gaming community.
It's funny how there is rant after rant on the official oblivion boards about how Oblivion is NOT a roleplaying game. Then, one aspect that actually leans toward being a true roleplaying game, where there are actual gender differences, people complain.
Is it really any wonder that the aliens haven't made official contact with humans?
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The Poster Previously Known As NeptiOfPovar |
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Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:49 pm |
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Guilded Lily
Village Dweller
Joined: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 1
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Before you guys get all up in arms about this, I suggest you read the original post HERE
and my follow-up post HERE
I am not suggesting that men aren't generally stronger than women, or any of that BS. I was simply surprised to find that the starting stats were different for male and female characters in Oblivion because it is an otherwise highly gender inclusive game. The difference in the starting stats affects those wishing to create a power design character - meaning, for example, that if I want to have a character with the best optimized stats for a warrior I must choose a male character.
I created a mod to equalize the starting stats to address this issue, which is available to download on my blog for anyone who is interested. Please don't turn this into one of those stupid "men are stronger than women" arguments, it's been done to death already and doesn't really accomplishes anything. - Guilded Lily |
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Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:03 pm |
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TheMadGamer
High Emperor
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 487
Location: Southern California |
quote:
Originally posted by Guilded Lily
...for example, that if I want to have a character with the best optimized stats for a warrior I must choose a male character.
I guess the obvious question is why are your concerns limited to just gender? Why isn't there equal dissatisfaction regarding race or even class? You want a Nord caster... but a Breton is better at magic so are you FORCED to play a Breton?
quote:
Originally posted by Guilded Lily
I created a mod to equalize the starting stats to address this issue, which is available to download on my blog for anyone who is interested.
... and while you're at it, create a few dozen mods so that my nord barbarian plays like a High Elf spellcaster with all their perks and bonuses but still retaining the perks and bonuses of the nord barbarian.
My take on this whole gender thing is that it's brought up for it's own sake, using the backdrop of insert_current_event here as the stand-in reason.
One of the hallmarks of a roleplaying game is to make choices. And with each choice you make, you forego another. In regards to a RPG character, you choose among other things, staple attributes such as Race, Class, and Gender.
Too few RPGs make differences between gender precisely because of the insanity of the Politically Correct & 'Progressive' crowd where boys are girls and girls are boys and there are no differences whatsoever in gender.
For the rest of the humans, until the day comes where we all have the same genitals and the same levels of hormones coursing through our cerebrums, there are going to be visible physical differences that persist between genders and hold true on a macro level.
There is nothing incorrect with the statement that 'the male species on a whole demonstrate a stronger upper body relative to the females' or 'the female species on a whole demonstrate much more flexibility than the males.' Unless, of course, you're part of NOW where pointing out the obvious makes you racist.
Personally, the gender differences in Oblivion made it harder for me to make the character I’m playing now. But the choices were just as difficult when choosing a race and a class as well. I’m glad that Bethesda made gender differences. But if there is going to be a huge backlash over it, we can all expect gender differences to vanish in future TES games much like children NPCs have vanished from most RPG games… and when that happens, we can all rant and read internet gaming articles about how developers are so risk-averse to making gender differences in RPG games and what can be done about it.
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The Poster Previously Known As NeptiOfPovar |
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Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:59 pm |
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Dyne
Village Dweller
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 17
Location: London, UK |
Totally agree with TheMadGamer. It's all about choice and character customisation within the concepts of real world-influenced physiology. Along with the entire concept of different character classes and races. The whole point is variety and colour, allowing a variety of playstyles and approaches to situations.
It seems the other camp are saying "Androgyny Now! Difference and variety is deplorable! We should all be identical, amorphous blobs with no excellence in any particular field nor any speciaisation to specific tasks and roles!"
Pfff, please.
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Chonky big tim-tam Australian so-so. |
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Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:43 pm |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
Wow, this is a strange issue for me, since I started another female char to actually follow the "Nerevarine bloodline" aspect of the story from my main Morrowind toon, to her daughter. You know, the whole destiny thing, part of the game experience for me developing my own backstory, such as I do with my MMORPG toons.
So I'm conflicted I guess because it's unfair or something, yet I'm also sorta happy about it in a way, because it's a little bit more of a challenge. I guess. I like overcoming disadvantages in games, or being flippant in the face of convention or expectations, doing things differently you know. Which, might I add, was part of the fun of playing Morrowind with a female in the first place, beating the living stuffing out of a bunch of hulking brutes with my virtual daughter, and claiming the title of the Nerevarine with her as well.
I guess also, from what I'm reading now, I was also similarly disadvantaged as well in Morrowind stat-wise, but I didnt know this at all at the time. So I guess I'm sorta outraged, but also sorta happy, yet the very reason that I enjoyed beating the hell out of the brutes with my female toon now has me realizing my own mental biases. Why was it any better, why should it have been? Oh this is just all so confusing, I just had no idea...
I'm just wondering where the similar outrage is from the male gamers of our Elder Scrolls community, regarding the supposed stat disadvantages in both intelligence and personality. This actually seems a bit more offensive I would think, I guess I'll have to wait until I play a male toon in Oblivion to see if I'm bothered by this inequality.
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“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain
Last edited by xSamhainx on Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:03 pm |
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slak
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 122
Location: Sweden |
No, genders aren't equal, they have different advatages and disadvatages, but there is no discrimination involved either. |
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Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:06 pm |
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abbaon
Head Merchant
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 64
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I agree with the feminazi. The reality of gender differences has nothing to do with this. She likes to fantasize about gender equality, and wishes the game reflected that fantasy the way it reflects other people's fantasies of casting spells and fighting monsters. Me, I'd like Bethesda to dump Tamriel and start setting its games in Dan Dare's version of the solar system. Maybe they would if I made enough noise. You can't argue with a personal preference - there's no accounting for taste - and you can't fault her for trying to make a difference. |
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Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:39 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by abbaon
I agree with the feminazi. The reality of gender differences has nothing to do with this. She likes to fantasize about gender equality...
Hehe, the problem with these "feminazis" is that they don't fantasize about gender equality at all. What they fantasize about is how the evil men have suppressed them for the last 10,000 years and that it is now their turn to suppress men for the coming 10,000 years. That is their idea of "equality".
Well, good luck, girls  but here's a hint... this feminist crap is sooo yesterday. Come on... time to grow up and enter the 21st century where we "evil macho pigs" are living side by side with modern, self-confident, intelligent women.
Oh, and if anyone cares for some comedy reading then check out one of the sites that was involved in this debate at The Geeky Feminist . Here's a teaser from the 'About' page (but the 'Rules' section is definitely worth a look as well  )...
quote:
I haven’t always been a radical feminist, but I’ve always had a strong sense of fairness and I find the two go together quite well.
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Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:37 am |
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Guest
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Nice find.
quote:
Originally posted by The Shrill Harpy
It’s a myth that gamers are mostly male. According to the Entertainment Software Association, “Forty-three percent of all game players are women. In fact, women over the age of 18 represent a greater portion of the game-playing population (28 percent) than boys from ages 6 to 17 (21 percent).”
Math is hard! Teehee! |
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Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:23 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
Sorry Lily, but I strongly disagree. Girls are weak; everyone knows that. But they got the nice rumps, the good smells, and the fancy curves. So it balances out physically. Mentally, no—not even the semblance of equality. Girls are psycho crazy. Why isn’t there a crazy attribute so the girls can get another +10 advantage over the stupid, non-personable males?
And girls can’t tolerate pain better. That is a stupid fable. Girls can’t take pain at all. Most guys can’t either, but girls are pathetic at it. With there crying and whining and blabbity blah. And they always fall back on child birth, because guys can’t get pregnant of course. If I could, I’d shoot babies out of my junk like a machine gun with a smile on my face and laughter in my eyes. And I’d cackle at all the sissy ass girls with their screaming and epidurals and sissyness as I tell my wife to go long and catch the next projectile baby shot out of my stuff.
I can beat the crap out of like 10 women at once. And like 20 or more kids. I could probably take on an army of toddlers between the ages of 2 and whatever age toddlers cap out at. I could take on at least 3 American Gladiator girls.
Women can’t even keep up with men in Tennis, and that game is basically made for women or womanly men. Even womanly men can beat the best your sex can produce. When you come to real sports like football and basketball, men’s superiority is so apparent that any attempt at a comparison is laughable.
Women are good at three things: being pretty, being crazy, and being protected by a superior sex. Girls are so crazy they even find ugly, stinky men attractive. The ugliest girl is always better than the prettiest guy. That’s why women are called the fairer sex. So the only sexually sane women are lesbians.
And don’t get me wrong, I’m not a sexist. 98% of guys are gay, making them basically girls. So Oblivion should of actually had three sexes. Girls, Girly-boys, and the rare race of Man. Girls and Girly-boys should have had the same stats, since they are basically the same thing. So I agree with your original post that since Man is so rare, they should of just had Girls and Girly-boys and gave them the same stats. Good call Lily. We’re on the same page.
p.s. Oblivion is stupid.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:37 am |
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abbaon
Head Merchant
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 64
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For my sake, I hope I never find myself on the opposite side of an issue to you, Roq. |
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Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:17 am |
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Kalia
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 30
Location: Arizona |
Roqua, I'm sure you think you're either a) terribly amusing; or b) smugly superior to everyone. I simply find you boring. If that drivel is the best you can come up with and if you further think it's going to provoke any reaction beyond a yawn, you're sadly mistaken.  |
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Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:19 am |
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