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| silverback vs. tiger |
| silverback |
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40% |
[ 2 ] |
| tiger |
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60% |
[ 3 ] |
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| Total Votes : 5 |
Rordog
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 111
Location: kelowna |
What would win between a full grown silverback gorilla and a full grown tiger?
No sneaking up on the other one, they are both aware of the fight and it is on level ground.
Please explain your rational
What do you think? Oh yeah I have numerous of these scenarios.
later, rordog
_________________
Winning isn't everything it is the only thing!
Last edited by Rordog on Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:10 am; edited 2 times in total |
Wed Sep 21, 2005 7:45 pm |
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Kamahl
King of Spam
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 1668
Location: Slovenia-Ljubljana |
i belive a silerback would win
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Destroy the dark side, we will
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die dunkle Seite zerstören, wir sollen |
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Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:14 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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What genders are they? What is the layout of the ground? Is it dry or wet? Are there any trees around? Is it a small space or a large open space?
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:59 pm |
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Rordog
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 111
Location: kelowna |
@Darrius
The weather is temprate with a slight SE wind of 5 knots. The forecast calls for rain the next day so the barometric pressure is slightly higher than normal. I believe the Tiger had a light chicken demi-glaze the evening before, with a stout port to accompany it. The silverback gorilla dinned mostly on organic grains and bright leafy vegetables.
Silverbacks only come in one form (male), so thusly it would be battling the larger of the tiger genders (male).
Neither is an open plain occupant so lets put them in an open area (level ground as mentioned before) with enough room to move freely. Lets say 50m diameter circle.
The scenario is not very complicated: extreme power and moderate speed vs. extreme speed and moderate power. Presented on an equal playing field.
_________________
Winning isn't everything it is the only thing! |
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Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:48 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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This is not just about speed and power. This is about speed, power, and intelligence. Intelligence always matters. In large numbers of conflicts, intelligence always wins.
The Gorilla wins 55 times out of 100.
If the Gorilla is THE Alpha-Male he wins 75 times out of 100.
Tigers stalk, slash, and bite. They kill mostly by choking their enemies. They can't stalk in an open area and thus have no element of suprise.
Gorillas charge, grab, and punch. Gorillas can also throw things, although I am not sure they throw things in fights; it's a moot point anyway as there is nothing to throw in your scenario (open area with no trees and thus no sticks).
Forced to into a head-on collision. The Gorilla's strength becomes more important.
A lion would have a better chance because they spend the first 4 years of their life learning how to fight.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:14 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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A tiger's rake would disembowl a gorilla in no time flat. They're more than big enough to knock a gorilla over as well.
THe problem is the gorilla will likely snap the tiger's back before it dies.
Neither wins in a head-on charge. The tiger is too fast to punch before it impacts and the gorilla is too tough to die INSTANTLY once impact is made.
And only a head on collision would drop the gorilla. Their back and neck are way too muscled for raking it or nape-bite (how most big cats kills) to be instantly fatal. The kill against the gorilla would have to be instantly fatal because as soon as the silverback got a hold it would be able to rip the tiger in half.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
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=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:50 pm |
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Rordog
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 111
Location: kelowna |
Now EverythingXgen is thinking
Tigers weigh in at 400+lbs, silverback weigh in at 300-500lbs.
Pretty even match up I'd say.
Intelligence does play a role but they are both the pinicle of nature in either case soooo.
Personally if you have ever seen a large cat move at full speed or fight you would probably realize that it would be nearly impossible to catch it. The gorilla in all its strength could not crush it or tear it limb from limb because a tiger would be harder to catch than the greased up deaf guy on "Family Guy".
Male Lions are no bigger than a tiger, generally smaller than a male tiger actually. Additionally, lions are scavengers and use their numbers to drive off other animals so they can eat. In real life a large tiger is way more imposing than any lion.
think long and hard who you would bet your life, or the lives of your children/spouse, on if it came to that. Then maybe you will analyse the situation to the extent that is necessary.
I am not saying I know the answer, but I don't think it is obvious either.
later, rordog
_________________
Winning isn't everything it is the only thing! |
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Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:43 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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Lions are slightly smaller than tigers. Put emphasis on 'slightly'; adult male lions come in at about 20- 30 lbs. lighter than adult male tigers and they measure around the same height.
The real difference is the way they live life. Lions and Gorillas live in hostile groups where the fight often. Male lions spend the first 4 years of his life literally learning how to fight. They often fight other male lions over prides. Gorillas live in Alpha-Male dominated cultures where the males must fight for gain supremacy and fight to maintain that supremacy. Tigers are loners. They would seldom fight another animal of their own size.
Additionally, a Gorilla would be the smartest animal he has ever seen. The more things in the environment the better the Gorilla's chances.
In the absense of fear, I would choose the smarter creature every time. I would win more than I lose.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:27 pm |
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Rordog
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 111
Location: kelowna |
A 400lbs sumo-wrestler could defeat neither of the animals without a gun. Yet even the dumbest person has intelligence that is greater than the animals. Unfortunately intelligence has almost nothing to do with a raw in–the-moment battle.
The gorilla is not going to have time to suddenly figure out how to forge a weapon out of its surroundings and strike the tiger dead with it. It is a battle of shear abilities. Maybe the gorilla will win on its physical prowess, but maybe not. Looking at the subject from an intelligence standpoint suggest to me that you are misunderstanding the magnitude of the situation. There is no planning for the animals, no hiding then attacking later when they are better prepared.
Your idea of intelligence prevailing given no advantageous surroundings, also suggest that you have never seen an animal fight (you basically need slow motion capture to see it all) or have never been in a fight yourself.
If someone of IQ 140 and 200lbs fights me they are bit more intelligent and the same size, but that doesn't mean they will win. What if they are a fat 200lbs whereas I am an athlete, then who will win? What if they have exceptionally fast reflexes or very long arms? My ability to calculate the angle and force of his incoming punch isn't going to help me on bit in the heat of the moment.
No person or animal can intelligently predict how the tiger will strike once engaged (its first attack may be apparent to you and me, but has that silverback done its research?). Conversely, the silverback is just as unpredictable.
I will give you the fact of the alpha-male, group society factor (I've watched discovery channel too). That being said I have a feeling you think there is a lot more inter-group conflict then there really is. Besides, fighting another gorilla is a lot different than fighting 500lbs of claws and lightning fast strikes.
My prediction: Tiger walks away with a number of broken bones (ribs mostly) and the gorilla is feeding the worms...
Unless the gorilla lands a lucky haymaker to the tiger's head it would be eviscerated promptly.
Again feel free to explain your own standpoint. I love contemplating the power of two such awesome creatures.
Later, rordog
_________________
Winning isn't everything it is the only thing! |
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Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:14 am |
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Kamahl
King of Spam
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 1668
Location: Slovenia-Ljubljana |
i doubt a tiger could kill a gorilla.Even if he would strike a hardest blow in the back ir neck yes it would do damage but when a silverback would get his hands on a tiger nothing will be left of the tiger and plus ull never see a lon gorilla cuz they allways r in a pack so it would be impossible
_________________
Destroy the dark side, we will
De duistere zijde vernietigen, we zullen
Uničili temno stran, bomo mi
die dunkle Seite zerstören, wir sollen |
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Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:25 am |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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And yet sumo-wrestlers buy their wives coats made of tiger skin. The two most important factors in any fight are fear and intelligence, or more specifically, the ability of the animal to leverage that intelligence into an idea that gives him the advantage and the degree to which fear counteracts that process. That is why dogs can heard cattle and whip bulls. That is also why one mountain lion (panther) can kill horses in a stable. Hence the more things in the environment, the more things he can leverage, the better the gorilla's chances.
It doesn't take much sense to hold a club and swing it. It doesn't take much sense to throw a rock. It doesn't take much sense to figure out that you can't run a tiger down.
That you don't see the importance of intelligence in a fight tells me that you misunderstand one of the basics of life, smart wins in the end. It beats strong, fast, big, anything. The question is not "does intelligence matter." The question is, "Is the gorilla smart enough to leverage his greater strength into a victory over greater speed."
I think the gorilla is smart enough to not exhaust himself, tough enough to absorb the necessry blows, and strong enough to land the critical blow necessary kill the tiger. I also think he's smart enough to put the tiger in a choke hold, and strong enough enough to strangle him.
quote:
Rordog
Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 9:14 pm Post subject:
Your idea of intelligence prevailing given no advantageous surroundings, also suggest that you have never seen an animal fight (you basically need slow motion capture to see it all) or have never been in a fight yourself.
There is no such thing as an environment that is not advantageous to one party or the other, there always something that gives an edge. Your particular secenario puts the tiger in the best position he could possibly be in while fighting a gorilla.
There is nothing the gorilla could use as a tool. There is nothing to climb. The gorilla is away from his pack, which is unnatural for a gorilla. There are no corners in the arena; so there is no way to take away the tiger's quicker footspeed.
The tiger's primary tool, surprise, has been taken away but that is all he has lost.
Without tools in the environment your body become your only weapon.
If a 140 lb man who knows kung-fu fights a 200 lb man who doesn't know anything, the man who knows kung-fu will win.
The vision you have of the big bully beating up the bookworm. Is an example of my point. The typical bullies fights all the time, thus knows more about fighting than the typical bookworm. He may be dumber in other aspects of life, but in a fight he is actually smarter.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:10 pm |
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Kamahl
King of Spam
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 1668
Location: Slovenia-Ljubljana |
a very good point there
_________________
Destroy the dark side, we will
De duistere zijde vernietigen, we zullen
Uničili temno stran, bomo mi
die dunkle Seite zerstören, wir sollen |
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Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:48 pm |
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Rordog
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 111
Location: kelowna |
In the 0.5 seconds the gorilla has before the battle is engaged I suppose it could fathom a ball of dirt and throw it into the tiger's eyes.
Yes intelligence is the defining factor. An intelligent gorilla can learn some sign language; an intelligent tiger can learn to jump through hoops... yay.
I don't really want to debate this anymore because there is no sustainable advantage to be had in this environment. In an arena fight both animals are frenzied and will fight to the death. In nature fear is a huge factor with out a doubt, but this is an unnaturally staged battle between two unlikely combatants.
In nature gorillas rely largely on intimidation and tigers upon the element of surprise. This situation is taken away from a natural setting.
Unfortunately, gorillas also don't typically fight with: sticks/rocks/whips/maces/swords/guns or anything else the uber-intelligent gorilla can comprise in a split second. Gorillas generally strike with their formidable fists and bite. You could put a baseball bat in front of the gorilla and I would be very surprised if it would use it (I would, but that's just me).
A more classic match up is a grizzly bear vs Siberian tiger. A grizzly bear can walk through a gorilla in a fight and it also generally defeats a tiger. So I thought this would be a more appropriate match.
I'm not really asking for a life lesson on the importance of intelligence, I have been living the intelligent side of the battle all my life. I realize humans can kill anything and almost anything can kill humans when they are out of their territory and separated from their precious weapons.
You think a gorilla is smart enough to conserve its energy and master the tiger’s movements in a matter of moments. I think the tiger is smart enough to use its 25ft+ leaping ability in the form of a charge and bowl the gorilla over. I also think it is smart enough to use its razor sharp claws to inflict massive damage and I also think it is smart enough to utilize its (near the highest ranked land mammal) massive bite force to chomp down on the gorillas throat or nape of the neck.
That's what I think would happen in less than 3 seconds.
Agree to disagree I think.
later, rordog
_________________
Winning isn't everything it is the only thing! |
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Mon Sep 26, 2005 3:08 am |
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Kamahl
King of Spam
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 1668
Location: Slovenia-Ljubljana |
yes the tiger can do that if and only if the gotilla would stand there like it just saw something completly new.She would defend her self in many ways like doging or just by placing its hands over its face to protect it from the claws is one wwhen that is over the tiger is so close it can just grab it and do whatever it pleases
_________________
Destroy the dark side, we will
De duistere zijde vernietigen, we zullen
Uničili temno stran, bomo mi
die dunkle Seite zerstören, wir sollen |
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Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:14 am |
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