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| Bush vs Kerry: who is your choice? |
| Bush (US-citizen) |
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21% |
[ 10 ] |
| Kerry (US-citizen) |
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19% |
[ 9 ] |
| Bush (non-US) |
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10% |
[ 5 ] |
| Kerry (non-US) |
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47% |
[ 22 ] |
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| Total Votes : 46 |
Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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Everytime I try to get out, they pull me back in. by Don Michael Corleone
quote:
By dteowner
re-human nature-- I think you're stopping short. That "rule" applies to all leaders. That includes Kerry. Kerry doesn't feel good about focussing the struggle on terrorism/Iraq, so he's trying to focus it (in traditional Democrat form) on US rich versus US poor. Still a struggle, still an "us vs them" scenerio, complete with the requisite scare tactics (millions without health care, flu vaccine, social security running dry, rich getting unfair breaks, yadda-yadda-yadda). Although I'm probably closer to the poor side of that dispute, I'm certainly not pleased with a struggle that pits American against American.
That is not what I am talking about. First of all, concern over these issues is not IRRATIONAL FEAR. They legitimate issues that must be be addressed. There are real differences (which I will not address specifically here) in the philosophies of the two parties. Pointing out the REAL difference in the parties in efforts to stir up the base is not preaching fear. Preaching fear is speaking or otherwise communicating ideas that have very little or no evidence to suggest that they will ever occur.
There is a difference between dabate and warfare. We are debating now. I am emensely pleased at the 'struggle' that pits American against American. I can not express to you in words how pleased I am with it. What you are calling a struggle is essential to a properly functioning two party government. Everyone struggles to get their point across to others and then on one day we vote, and we agree to live by the majority (for the most part) of the vote. If everyone saw it the same way for an extended period of time we would end up with a one party government. Laws would be passed that would repress any opposing point of view and before you know it we would have Communism.
About the cartoon...
Whether this cartoonist, Gary Varvel, is a moderate or not has nothing to do with the message intended or conveyed by the cartoon. The fact is it creates a clear picture of a nuclear attack against the US happening if Kerry should become President. If people were having problems visualizing it he helped them out, he visualized it for them. So, now many people have this vision of Kerry allowing us to be attacked when there is NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THIS IMAGINARY SCENARIO. If all he wanted was to point out the cost of being wrong, he could have drawn Bush there. You know Bush has ACTUALLY BEEN THE PRESIDENT. Kerry may not ever become President. The cartoonist clearly intended to launch an attack on Kerry, that is why he drew Kerry in the chair.
quote:
I don't see where that can be dismissed as "blind fear" or "Republican spin". We've already had a taste of what happens when we look the other way. Clinton did, and for that matter so did Dubya until 9-11. Look what that got us. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.
Clinton did try to kill Osama Bin Laden. You remember the attack, the one Republicans said was an attempt to take public attention of the Monica Lewinsky affair.
We know they are out to get us. The question is who they are and where they are.
quote:
Given that, I feel more confident that terrorism will get the appropriate attention if we are on the attack than if we sit back and hope for the best. The nutjobs are out there, and I don't think anybody's stupid enough to deny it. One nutjob can kill an entire city now. Being in "attack mode" will certainly generate more nutjobs, but I feel we'll be more prepared to deal with them. I feel safer knowing there's 10 nutjobs in front of me and I'm concentrating on them than having 1 nutjob behind me because I'm distracted at the negotiating table (keep in mind that Saddam, Osama, and clerics like al-Sadr have repeatedly demonstrated that anything that gets done at the negotiating table is often forgotten before they've even left the room) or concentrating on stirring up class warfare.
You are advocating bad warfare,
1. We are not attacking the right people? Once again you are forgetting that Iraq is not the same as the terrorists who attacked us. We are shooting the wrong people.
2. Making your enemies multiply makes you less safe not more safe.
3. You are not recognizing the nature of a terrorist. Terrorist don't have a country that you can just attack. They move where that can. They are perfectly formless. They strike the weakest parts of their enemies.
4. No one is advocating that we "sit back and hope for the best" but we must not wage war on the wrong target. That distracts you and lulls you back to a false sense of security. You think you are fighting terrorists when you are really fighting ordinary rebellions.
5. To fight terrorism you have to send James Bond, not G.I. Joe. The strength of a terrorist is that no one knows where he is, what he looks like, or where he will strike next. An army needs to know all these things. You need spies to find them.
6. You should not be so thirsty for blood that you consider the negotiating table a 'distraction'
All of this goes back to fear. You have to stop thinking that we are about to be attacked in every thought you have. True, there are threats, but there always has and always will be. We will respond to these threats but we will not let them dominate our thinking to the point where we see them when they are not there.
Lintra, the true source of the Social Security problem, seniors don't care about the future of Social Security, they vote the now of Social Security.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
Mon Oct 25, 2004 10:13 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by Darrius Cole
Lintra, the true source of the Social Security problem, seniors don't care about the future of Social Security, they vote the now of Social Security.
After all this time, we finally agree on something. 
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Tue Oct 26, 2004 7:38 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
quote:
Originally posted by Darrius Cole
Lintra, the true source of the Social Security problem, seniors don't care about the future of Social Security, they vote the now of Social Security.
After all this time, we finally agree on something.
Ahhhh, the tyranny of the masses ... or in this case a really big voting block with a huge vested interest ... strikes again!
_________________
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Just plain clueless= |
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Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:32 pm |
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Secret Agent Lawanda
The last thing you see...
Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 1041
Location: World of Darkness (LA) |
I'm thinking of flipping a coin. Heads - Bush, Tails - Kerry
;p
_________________
-=Professional Secret Agent=-
Moderator of The Anime and Manga Fan Club |
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Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:38 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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It's as good an approach as any as ultimately whether it is President Kerry or President Cheney they'll both be subject to the debacle that is currently stubbornly refusing to die down.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:47 pm |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
quote:
Originally posted by Secret Agent Lawanda
I'm thinking of flipping a coin. Heads - Bush, Tails - Kerry
;p
Wha!?! (clickey) 
_________________
"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
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Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:28 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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What debacle are you speaking of. There are many.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:40 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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There are so many of them that I left it to "Viewer's Choice".
I'm betting that whoever wins gets assassinated sometime during the next four years anyways.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:47 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
...I'm betting that whoever wins gets assassinated sometime during the next four years anyways.
At first I was going to write back something about "piffle" and "they'll grow out of it".
But then I started to consider:
1. This election is very, very polarized.
2. Both sides supporters are behaving like brainwashed spoiled brats.
3. The purile 'hatred' that is being built up to dangerous new levels,
4. I have read an unprecedented number of Op Ed that when boiled down say "If our guy don't win the 7 horsemen will ride right over us". The only difference between supporters of one side and the other is which horseman comes first!
Taking all those factors (and some others) into account, you might just be right.
_________________
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Just plain clueless= |
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Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:55 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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This is the most juvenille election I can remember ... crowds are being whipped in frenzies by retorts that basically boil down to political equivilents of 'Yo' momma!'
Historically, when you rally two sides up enough the end result is a) civil war, b)a mob flipping cars, or c)social or political collapse.
The media is sitting back and sensationalizing this entire mess as they have everthing else for the past two decades. More.
Frankly, if this entire mess DOESN'T end up with a civil war, assassination, or terrorist attack (or a terrorist assassination attack that leads to a civil war) I think the media will be dissappointed.
Well, maybe this will sober people up. Oh-God-What-Have-We-Done? Wednesday will roll around, the world won't end, policy won't change, and another american soldier will die. Another ordinary day.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:33 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
Throw in a mounting trade deficeit, the anemic (and getting weaker) USD, the asinine rehtoric, a war, and yeah, there just might be some civil unrest. The only offsetting factor is a luke warm economy. If it were bursting at the seems with wealth there'd be too much leisure time, and if was as bad as some paint it ... well, bread lines are a good place to fire up a crowd (after they've been fed).
Lintra shakes his head woefully
'Tis truly sad. I just hope you are correct about the sobering up part. But then, the dim bulbs haven't forgotten Florida in 2000 (on either side), so I doubt it.
I just bless my lucky stars that I no longer live in the NYC area. I don't fancy being caught in a riot. Not my idea of the way to spend a weekend.
The good news is: the election is less than a week away. Then the doubt will be removed and the recriminations can start *grin*
_________________
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Just plain clueless= |
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Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:45 pm |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
Jeez, you guys are cynical!
_________________
"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
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Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:50 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Doubt will be removed? I doubt it very much. Florida 2000 was the PERFECT set up for calling into question the votes of any state you feel you should have won.
Election night will be nothing more that 9 different networks declaring winners far sooner than they should, and then -- watching other networks for their information -- finally reach consensus on who 'won' (which may or may not be proven accurate in the actual count later).
I wouldn't be surprised if it took a week to sort out who actually is now President. Or two. Or three.
Jung - We're old and cranky and don't get pensions 
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:01 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
I meant doubt as to the 'outcome' even if the 'outcome' is a bunch of challenges ... which I actually doubt.
Florida last time around was a statistical fluke. The odds of the margin of victory being less than 1,000 votes when well over 1,000,000 are cast is razor slim. While the media would enjoy another Florida, and while both sides appear to be gearing up for one, I actually see the odds of one as pretty darned slim.
But then, I have underestimated the stupidity of pols before. They just *might* try to steal an election through mass challenges ... and while it might make for good drama, it would do untold harm to the US. So I *hope* you are wrong, while *fearing* you are correct.
In any case, the doubt will be removed next week, and I will find if hope wins out over fear (at least for me).
As a side note, I will be in London for the election ... this could put a very interesting spin on what information I get.
@Jung - Yeah! What Xen said *grin*
_________________
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Just plain clueless= |
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Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:15 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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I check www.bbc.co.uk for news ... especially election news. You'd be surprised how much they have over www.cnn.com ... and it's much less biased.
56,000 ballots aimed for Florida have gone missing, for instance.
My greatest desire from all this is to be wrong. Bush is going to win... that's a given... but I want him to prove me wrong in everything I say. I want him to have a clear and concise course of action that turns everything around and calms everything down over the next four years. I want him to reconcile the US with the UN and once again take a role as leader instead of rebel. I want the election to be calm and collected and not provoke riots and protests and allegations of fraud and miscounts.
I want all that... but expect none of it.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:53 pm |
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