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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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So many issues come into play here. Religion, Family, Firearms, etc. I actually think it is culmination of what you have all said plus one very important factor that none of you have mentioned so far. That one other factor being the emasculation of the average male in society (American Society). I'll elaborate.
If you look at the profiles of most of these children you will see that 1) they are almost all male, in fact I think they are all male, and 2) they feel that they have been bullied somehow.
I remember a man once telling me that you can not treat people any way you want to. He was right. A man, any man, and some boys we now see, can be pushed to a point where he just can't be pushed any further. When he gets to that point he is not thinking straight and he doesn't care whether he lives or dies, he is simply determined to assert himself. The problem with these boys is that they don't know how to assert themselves. They let themselves get pushed to far and they strike back out of desperation going for the overkill.
There was a time when certain disrespectful actions toward a man earned you a punch in the face. Now we frown upon any such action as uncessary violence. The fact of the matter is boys sometimes need such a release. They need a way to regain honor after being humiliated by someone else. They need to know that they can stop the world from walking all over them. The need a way to gain the respect of their peers. These boys have no such mechanism. Often they are alone, and/or bullied by a group of larger and older boys. I would guess that many of them are laughed by the other children. Without a release these emotions compound until these boys get fed up. Then they go for overkill.
There should be some mechanism of forcing a fair fight in school. "
Bobby: "Mr. Cole Jimmy hit me."
Mr. Cole: "Bobby, Jimmy get in the ring. 3 minutes gloves off."
That would force the children to confront their bullies and/or demons without fear of reprisals from the administration. That would cut down on the bullying. That would allow them to work off negative energy. That would teach them to focus on the real enemy. That would give them a quicker option when they feel disrespected. That would teach them that they can assert themselves without killing anybody.
Religion and family values are social systems and as such have ideas on how to cope with such problems built in. They would be something of a deterrent. Guns are not the problem. The threat of punishment is not the problem. These boys kill themselves, they know they are not going to jail.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
Thu Mar 24, 2005 12:14 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
@Moriendor: You misunderstood the first part of my statement. Let me make myself more clear. If bullies and delinquent students were actually punished for their behavior, then kids getting picked on would not have to feel that they have to take matters into their own hands. Teachers have had almost all of their power to discipline students striped from them. The most they can do is send a kid to the principal. Generally the administration will side with the student to cover their own butts, because they don't want the kid running to mommy and daddy with their sob story and then have the parents sic the PTA on them. It's a common occurrence and it's been going on for a long time. Now the more severe symptoms are starting to show up. The bullies get away with the bullying. They aren't held accountable. Their parents don't stop them. The teachers can't stop them. The administration refuses to stop them.
So what recourse is left? The ones being picked on begin to feel that they have to take matters into their own hands. The kids are the only ones left to discipline the kids. Now while I wouldn't kill anyone, that didn't stop me from pounding bullies into the ground when I saw them picking on other students. I bullied the bullies when I was in school because I didn't see anyone else sticking up for the kids that were taking flak from bullies. When I was a kid, I thought it was because the "grown-ups" didn't care. Now I know that the teachers' hands were tied with bureaucratic red tape. The principle was a spineless moron, I know because I was sent to his office on more than one occasion for flattening jerks that tormented the other kids. I'd get a lecture about making friends and being nice, blah, blah, blah. Don't hand me that load of psycho babble garbage. The bully is a jerk and they should be punched in the face for it. Sorry, I'm not going to be friends with some jerk that has to dominate the other kids. I'm going to knock them off their high-horse. But not every class has a kid like I was in it. You rarely see another kid stand up for the ones getting picked on because they don't want to become a target either. Instead they go along with it and the cycle continues until someone snaps or endures it in miserable silence until summer comes and they can leave the hell-hole that school has become for them. It's a pity most kids never realize they can revolt and punch the bully back. As Darrius said, they're trained not to. I say screw it. If someone punches you, you have every right punch back. You have every right to tell them to shut up. You have every right to tell them in graphic detail what they can do with their insignificant opinion and their anus. (You don't have the right to blow their head off however.)
After all, who is going to punish you for it? Heck, you might even get a candy bar from the spineless principle out of the deal. 
P.S. Man, this sucks, I never got a candy bar when I was sent to the office! I only got the boring lecture! Grr!
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
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Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:51 am |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
Great post, Darrius!
I think there is a real problem with the way children are being taught to deal with their problems effectively these days, which is, they arent being taught to face them at all. There's something to be said for the value of standing up for themselves, yet at the same time, the truly rotten apples that are a genuine nuisance need to be removed. Make no mistake about it, there are some truly rotten kids, and they have no right to pollute the educational system, but they are not dealt with harshly as they used to be. Guns havent suddenly just become available in the last 15 years, they have always been around, and there have always been bullies and victims as well. It's the school itself that has changed, and the way we've made our public education system more a place of employment for adults, instead of a place of learning for children. It's become just another front in the political wars of adults, another tool of politicians and unions. A grand utopian social experiment where everyone is supposed to go home happy, trying to magically create something that never has been in lieu of basic human nature. Our schools have lost the learning of virtues and the set of standards they once held in regard, it's not suprising that we are cranking out a whole bunch of pissed off little nihilists because of it.
Then ten years later when these people are pushed hard, or face rejection or loss and cant handle it and flip out, we all scratch our heads and wonder why. If they dont grab a gun, they very well might grab a knife, an axe or a rock.
People wonder why those of us are so upset and steadfast against the stamping out of our culture and religious heritage, and the "progressive" dismantling of our stupid old cobwebbed traditional institutions, organizations, and standards we once held dear. Well, this is a prime example of why backwards neanderthals such as I feel as I do, I think that this new breed of nihilist youth is symptomatic of the constant attack and revision of everything that has ever made us successful and great as a nation, starting with the education, value system, and protection of our youth. All that has ever worked be damned, make way for the grand utopian experiment.
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:57 am |
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tolgerias
High Emperor
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 770
Location: The Netherlands |
@ Darrius The only thing you seem to forget about is that bullies are always somehow stronger then their victims. Often it is just physical, the big half-orc guy against the small weak one. It would not be such a good idea to those two in a ring to fight there without fear of reprisals, the weaker guy just gets an some extra whacks. You might want to bind the bullie to a tree and then let the victim kick him but that won´t work either. I think it is a bad idea to let a victim take personeal revenge though your points to support it are very good I just don't see how this would cange a situation. It is far beter to have a good punishment system in the school. humiliatng punishment works very good, and if a bullie doesn´t change his ways you just kick him out of the school, without finding a new school for him first. This will make it really hard punishment, the guy will probably get a stinking bad job or become a criminal and end up in jail. I think this will disencourage bullies far more then giving them a onme-on-one cage fight with their victim.
Don't get me wromg it woul be very good if someone could blow of some steam now and then but I find it hard to think of a way to do this properly. it might be better if your nemesis is kicked out of school and you see him on the trashvan a month later.
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If you can't debate without namecalling then don't bother visiting us. -Myrthos |
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Thu Mar 24, 2005 7:59 am |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
Good posts. Your posts are really interesting. Mainly the US citizens point of view is really interesting for me. |
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Thu Mar 24, 2005 8:15 am |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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While I do believe that men and boys are being repressed in some regards now (karma is a real pain in the butt) and that forcing us to be something that we're not from an early age only leads to grief I would not like to see a cage match either.
When I was in school I was usually hammered on by guys who were four inches taller (at least.. often much more) and 30 pounds heavier (at least). What made me an attractive target was three major things: 1) I was tiny. I didn't get my final growth splurt until I was nearly 18, pushing me up from 4'10 to 5'4 over a sixth month period. I didn't weigh more than 110 pounds for ages. 2) I was a pimple-faced anti-social goth geek who shared no interests in sports, smoking, drinking, or sex with my peers. 3) I fought back. Hard. I would go down big time ... be knocked unconscious by shots to my solar plexus, slammed THROUGH locker doors, smashed with garbage cans, and be physically tossed around, sure, but I never stopped swinging, eye-gouging, groin-shotting, throat-shotting, spin-kicking, or headbutting. I just never won, even if I surprised more than a few attackers by how strong I was for my size.
Of course back then everyone carried a knife (four inch switchblade for me... my primary antagonist in junior high carried two butterfly knives) but nobody seriously thought about using it. Nobody carried a gun, though. Probably why I lived.
The point is ... violence really doesn't solve anything. Yes, the discipline is faltering big time in schools these days. Yes, some kids require more than a 'time out'. Yes, I think little boys need to fight (playfighting was my favorite thing when I was very young) and repressing this need breeds frustration and aggression. No, allowing kids to police themselves or encouraging violence is not the answer.
In a world where metal detectors are needed in public schools the whole 'Jonny and Bobby are going to fight afterschool!' thing is NOT a good idea.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:41 pm |
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Korplem
Swashbuckler
Joined: 23 Dec 2002
Posts: 853
Location: Pearl Harbor, HI |
I think Xen is right, letting them police themselves would be just another way for a bully to beat on the victim. I think that with the removal of religion they should have added more philosophical topics on morals. If you don't actively go out and tell people that being nice is an option there are bound to be a few people who don't realize it.
_________________
If soot stains your tunic, dye it black. This is vengeance.
-The Prince of Nothing |
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Thu Mar 24, 2005 4:22 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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After school? Who said anything about after school? I said in school. The response must be equal to the threat. I think the term is 'proportional response'. If he bullies you in school, the response should be in school. Then it should be over with; there is learning to be done.
Xen, what got you into so many fights is,
1) You didn't have any friends.
2) You were (and sounds like you still are) tiny.
3) You were so ineffective at fighting that you couldn't pose a real threat even when you fought.
If you fight enough fights eventually you will get your butt handed to you. That goes for me, you, Superman, and anybody else. That you lost is not the point. The bigger picture here is that you were not afraid or your bullies, evidenced by the fact that you fought. Even if you had had a gun you probably would not have fired because you would have feared the consequence of firing more than the consequence of going forward with the fight. It will be impossible to stop every child from being bullied at all. What we want to stop is children from being push around to the point that they feel the need to respond with deadly force. A fair amount of force at the proper time is required to do that.
Little Xen:"Mr. Cole, Moose hit me in the solar plexus"
Mr. Cole: "Moose! Picking on the smallest kid in class, huh. Get in the ring with gloves on."
Little Moose: "Come on Xen, you pipsqueek, I going to beat your little butt."
Little Xen: (Fearless and confident he can win, even though he gives up 50 pounds to Moose) "It's "I'm" going to beat your butt', moron. Sorry to disappoint, but I'm going to wipe the floor with you."
Mr. Cole: "Hold up, Xen. That's not a fair fight. Moose is twice your size and he knows it. That's why he picks fights with you. I am going to even the odds a bit.
Mr. Cole: (to class) Does anyone want to help Xen?
Little Val: "Meee, Meee" (waving her hand as she jumps up and down) "Meeee, Meee, Meeeeeeeeee."
Mr. Cole: "Xen, Val, in the ring, 3 minutes, gloves off."
Little Xen: (using very big words for such a small child) "When I was unassisted, my victory over you was highly probable. Now that I have reinforcements for this engagement, my triumph is a mathematical certainty."
Little Val: "Heh, Heh, Heh, Heh. Moose get ready for some pain"
Little Moose: (ashamed because everybody saw him whipped by the smallest person in class and a girl) "Waaa, why did I have to fight them both at the same time?"
Mr. Cole: "Because it was more fair than letting you fight the smallest kid in school. Next time pick on somebody your own size and you won't have to worry about it"
Sometimes being nice just won't cut it. Bullies know they are being mean and preying on the weak. They just don't care. These are children. Often they don't understand the concepts we teach them and the adults have to force the proper behavior from them until the day they understand and behave properly for their own reasons.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:32 pm |
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Bartacus
Il Buono
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 4706
Location: Belgium Flemmish part |
I would still go for a huge responsability of the media -> news. Most people can make the difference between a movie and the 7 o'clock news, but unfortunately most of them don't see the 'manipulations'. With those manipulations I don't only mean the intentional ones, but journalists make more and more the mistake of giving their personal opinion of those facts.
Another thing is that one might put the 'mass murder' of schools in the center of information, while in truth countless more people die in traffic accidents.
Also I think that fighting is just a step on the path of becomming more angry. I believe that there should be thaught more responsability to us and later generations. Every (wo)man is responsible for his(her) own actions from the age of 18 in my country. Laws are created to make it go more fluenty at the interaction. These things should be passed to 'our childeren'.
_________________
Moderator and Council Magician of the RPGDot Shadows
member of the Sports Fans Forum
Leader's Right Hand at the Gothic Rogues
NFG member |
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Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:45 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by Val
@Moriendor: You misunderstood the first part of my statement. Let me make myself more clear. If bullies and delinquent students were actually punished for their behavior, then kids getting picked on would not have to feel that they have to take matters into their own hands. Teachers have had almost all of their power to discipline students striped from them. The most they can do is send a kid to the principal. Generally the administration will side with the student to cover their own butts, because they don't want the kid running to mommy and daddy with their sob story and then have the parents sic the PTA on them. It's a common occurrence and it's been going on for a long time. Now the more severe symptoms are starting to show up. The bullies get away with the bullying. They aren't held accountable. Their parents don't stop them. The teachers can't stop them. The administration refuses to stop them.
So what recourse is left? The ones being picked on begin to feel that they have to take matters into their own hands. The kids are the only ones left to discipline the kids. Now while I wouldn't kill anyone, that didn't stop me from pounding bullies into the ground when I saw them picking on other students. I bullied the bullies when I was in school because I didn't see anyone else sticking up for the kids that were taking flak from bullies. When I was a kid, I thought it was because the "grown-ups" didn't care. Now I know that the teachers' hands were tied with bureaucratic red tape. The principle was a spineless moron, I know because I was sent to his office on more than one occasion for flattening jerks that tormented the other kids. I'd get a lecture about making friends and being nice, blah, blah, blah. Don't hand me that load of psycho babble garbage. The bully is a jerk and they should be punched in the face for it. Sorry, I'm not going to be friends with some jerk that has to dominate the other kids. I'm going to knock them off their high-horse. But not every class has a kid like I was in it. You rarely see another kid stand up for the ones getting picked on because they don't want to become a target either. Instead they go along with it and the cycle continues until someone snaps or endures it in miserable silence until summer comes and they can leave the hell-hole that school has become for them. It's a pity most kids never realize they can revolt and punch the bully back. As Darrius said, they're trained not to. I say screw it. If someone punches you, you have every right punch back. You have every right to tell them to shut up. You have every right to tell them in graphic detail what they can do with their insignificant opinion and their anus. (You don't have the right to blow their head off however.)
After all, who is going to punish you for it? Heck, you might even get a candy bar from the spineless principle out of the deal.
P.S. Man, this sucks, I never got a candy bar when I was sent to the office! I only got the boring lecture! Grr!
Oops, you're right. I completely misunderstood what you meant in that other post  . Fully agree with the above. There should be a zero tolerance policy towards people who harass or physically abuse others for fun. |
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Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:31 pm |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
One thing I really liked about Val's response, which I think is very important, is the role her father plays. Parents who do the 'right thing' when raising their children contribute so much to a healthy society. We are to a large extent the products of our home environment. Yes, I'll admit there are exceptions to the rule, but in general, WHO we are is heavily influenced by our family upbringing. Being a good parent is the toughest job in the world. Pity we don't get much real training for it!!
_________________
If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:46 am |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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quote:
Originally posted by Darrius Cole
If you fight enough fights eventually you will get your butt handed to you. That goes for me, you, Superman, and anybody else. That you lost is not the point. The bigger picture here is that you were not afraid or your bullies, evidenced by the fact that you fought. Even if you had had a gun you probably would not have fired because you would have feared the consequence of firing more than the consequence of going forward with the fight. It will be impossible to stop every child from being bullied at all. What we want to stop is children from being push around to the point that they feel the need to respond with deadly force. A fair amount of force at the proper time is required to do that.
Well, if I had a gun I may very well have used it... in such a fashion that there would be no way to trace it back to me beyond reasonable doubt. 'Thou shalt not kill' is probably the only commandment I haven't broken. I wouldn't have gone on a shooting rampage, though.
As for your example... that's a really good way to get gang-stomped by the bully and his cronies/friends later on. See, as time went on I learned the value of approaching very large people that everyone was intimidated by ... most of my high school friends fell into the 6 foot, 250 lb+ category. Know what finally got the idiot to back down? An unyielding and scathing mocking of his ego in public ... the whole 'oooh ... big guy. You're so tough beating on someone half your size' thing. Know what that got me? Nearly a broken jaw. Side effect? Some seniors saw it happen, including a guy who I was neutral to who just happened to be well liked and on the football team. They shoved him outside into the woods and curb-stomped the living crap out of him.
I felt no pride and no relief over this. Evening the odds, such as your example, is humiliating ... it makes you feel powerless (even if you are powerless you don't like to be reminded of it). Fighting my own fights ... a crazy berserking grade one slamming a grade six repeatedly with a lunch box through to the 17 year old who hunted down and beat nearly to death a bully after he said maybe he'd see how my sister liked him ... it has made me nothing but FEARFUL of anyone larger than myself, mobs, and people of different races.
Violence, no matter how controlled, justified, or rationalized, breeds violence. If provoked I will defend myself ... and now that I am military trained and strong enough to not have to reset the weights at a gym after a six foot monster works up a sweat the next time I am forced to defend myself there is a chance that someone will die.
The world does not need another me... but 'me' are what is being bred in schools all over the world. If something fundamental is not changed and addressed expect things to get worse. I am not brave ... I have a strong will to live. I am not a hero ... I am a monster.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:32 pm |
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tolgerias
High Emperor
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 770
Location: The Netherlands |
quote:
The world does not need another me... but 'me' are what is being bred in schools all over the world. If something fundamental is not changed and addressed expect things to get worse. I am not brave ... I have a strong will to live. I am not a hero ... I am a monster.
quote:
He who fights monsters should look into it that he himself does not become a monster
[Friedrich Nietzsche]
looks like you just proved the saying there, Xen
However it is Nietzsche saying it so don't take it too heavily 
_________________
If you can't debate without namecalling then don't bother visiting us. -Myrthos |
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Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:22 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Unlike most of his sayings I find that one true enough. When you sink to something evil's level you don't emerge untarnished.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:50 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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quote:
By EverythingXen
As for your example... that's a really good way to get gang-stomped by the bully and his cronies/friends later on. See, as time went on I learned the value of approaching very large people that everyone was intimidated by ... most of my high school friends fell into the 6 foot, 250 lb+ category. Know what finally got the idiot to back down? An unyielding and scathing mocking of his ego in public ... the whole 'oooh ... big guy. You're so tough beating on someone half your size' thing. Know what that got me? Nearly a broken jaw. Side effect? Some seniors saw it happen, including a guy who I was neutral to who just happened to be well liked and on the football team. They shoved him outside into the woods and curb-stomped the living crap out of him. (emphasis added)
What happened is exactly what I am suggesting should happen, someone should take up for people who were like you, before they are forced to take up for themselves. You disagree with me in words, but the facts as you tell them support what I am trying to say. The fellow who is in bold red letters was your friend. It sounds like he was your ONLY friend.
I don't think that violence always breeds violence. Sometimes violence is justice, and as such brings peace. I think weakness, or at least perceived weakness, breeds violence. People almost never attack you if they don't believe they are stonger than you are.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:35 pm |
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