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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
| Core Problem With MMORPGs |
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While I agree with the many topics concerning the many and varied problems of current MMORPGs, I have never seen what I consider to be the core problem discussed - so let's have at it. Remember, I agree that there are problems such as buggy code, poor graphics/animations, poor story line, etc., etc.
Core problem as I see it: In the very best of the MMORPGs to date, simply put there are NOT enough different things to do. In virtually every MMORPG to date all one really does is kill things - specifically kill things for the sole goal of leveling. Now, do not misunderstand and think I am some sort of tree hugging care bear - I LOVE killing things (no offense to tree loving care bears as they have their place in life too  ). But face it folks, killing thousands upon thousands of things just to make the next level gets - - - well, tedious and boring to the max! Now, it is true that if you group with friends the time goes more pleasantly - but that is NOT due to any wonderful game design, it is simply because you have friends who are fun to play with - you COULD be doing anything at all with them and having as much fun.
By the very basic design intent of an MMORPG we are expected to play the game for hours on end, day after day, week after week (yes some will play more than others due to other interests) - and with only one (or two if the game has decent trade skills implemented) things to do -- well, of course almost everybody will get bored and find the game tedious (yes, some will come to that point sooner than others, but again this is not the point). Therefore, a good MMORPG (jeez, we ARE into third generation MMORPGs - more if you count MUDS) MUST provide the paying customer more than one or two things to do in the game. This is particularly true of any game that pretends to be a role play game (as opposed to a simpler MMOG shooter or such).
I have deliberately not provided any thoughts in this first post about what COULD be added to an MMORPG to give players interesting things to spend time - to allow you all to comment on the core issue here - NOT ENOUGH DIFFERENT THINGS TO DO IN MMORPGS BESIDE KILLING.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
Mon Jul 26, 2004 4:08 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
You are correct in regards to all of the recent MMORPG.
But your comment:
quote:
In the very best of the MMORPGs to date, simply put there are NOT enough different things to do .
is wrong.
The very best MMORPG (and practicaly the first) is Ultima Online, and it has many many many many things to do other than kill things.
Its the first MMORPG I played and I fell in love with it, everything since has been drivel...
I did get bored of it eventualy, but not until I had played it religeously for almost 5 years...
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:14 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Chekote
You are correct in regards to all of the recent MMORPG.
But your comment:
quote:
In the very best of the MMORPGs to date, simply put there are NOT enough different things to do .
is wrong.
The very best MMORPG (and practicaly the first) is Ultima Online, and it has many many many many things to do other than kill things.
Its the first MMORPG I played and I fell in love with it, everything since has been drivel...
I did get bored of it eventualy, but not until I had played it religeously for almost 5 years...
I forgot UO - they came the closest. I didn't become bored with UO, but rather I got fed up with the bugs, exploits, poor server response, lag, etc.
However, other than UO, you are correct - while others have executed better than UO, they didn't even come close to the variety of experiences possible in the game - particularly insofar as roleplay possibilities are concerned.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:59 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
I was thinking about this and I think you're absolutely right: there is just never enough things to do in an mmorpg.... Notice here I said "never" and didn't use your turning of the phrase: "NOT enough things to do".
My point is: while you are right to say that most mmorpgs out there simply don't have enough different things to do, I'm arguing that even if there were more it would never be enough. Face it, sometimes you get bored in your real life, how could a virtual one ever fill all the voids? And the more a developper would add, the more you'd want. Yes, it would fix things, and it would make a game more interesting I'm not arguing that at all! I'm just saying that it would still never be enough, and down the road you would still say that there isn't enough to do in any given game.
But yes, killing things over and over gets tedious pretty fast. I wish some games offered more options. But I'm worried about the future: SOE announced recently that it will aggressively go after the asian markets. What does that mean? Well, there are a whole lot more asians than other players, and they don't like the same things as we do. For having played Lineage 2 for a few months now, I can tell you that most of them just looooove the idea of farming and killing over and over again. I don't. I want more. They want more too, only they want more killing, and more grind.
Developers will try very very hard to take hold of this market, and that only means that there will be less of what we want. It's much simpler for a developer to create grind through killing numbing amounts of mobs to gain levels than it is to create fun features to keep players occupied.
I'm kind of getting off topic though.... Maybe I've just been playing too much of L2  In short, I both agree with you that there is a need to be able to do more, but at the same time I don't think there will ever be enough for us to do.
_________________
=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:05 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
Well, of course you are correct - that is a given fact of life. NOTHING is ever PERFECT - there is NEVER enough, etc. However, we are so very far from that extreme in games.
In life, yes, some people (perhaps all) get bored at times - some people more than others. Mostly closed minded and linear people get bored - some of that is because they refuse to open their eyes and minds to other possibilities. However, in life (as it should be in mmorpgs) in truth there is ALWAYS something new to do. Further, I find that I (and I assume most people are like me) will go back to something I dropped doing (due to boredom) after some time and can usually find fun in it again.
Yes, you are also correct in that the Asian market seems to enjoy simple killing and farming over and over - however, that does NOT mean that they would not enjoy other things IF developers put them into the mmorpg.
For example, all people I am aware of (of all nationalities I mean) tend to enjoy collecting and displaying things. While I agree that some people seem to enjoy very "odd" things to collect and display - the tendency is at it's core the same Human desire. So, why not add this simple feature into the MMORPG? Simply define ALL items in the game (rabbits, trees, boulders, etc.) as objects that can (with the correct set of tools and correct skills) be broken down (cut up, dismembered, sawn, etc. as appropriate), into numerous (depending on the object) constituent parts. For example, if you kill a rabbit, using appropriate tools and skills (must be learned in game) your character can then obtain several parts (hide, teeth, claws, bones, spleen, kidney, heart, etc.) - how deep one goes is virtually unlimited in scope. Now, if you do this with a large number of the in game objects (ultimately all of them), you hopefully can begin to imagine the scope this one change would give to an MMORPG. Further, if you then allow people to collect and "display" these items (perhaps in their in game homes, perhaps in stores, etc.) - all the players who in real life like to collect and display things have something else to do instead of simply killing. Even further, one can imagine that some peole will then become "experts" in various fields (rocks, butterflies, rabbits, etc.) and this "renoun" can be added into the game - people LOVE to become well known for being good at things and this "renoun" can in one or more ways be displayed in game - giving people one more reason to do various activities other than killing.
This is just ONE example - I have many more. Bottom line, MMORPGs need to recognize that people - players - NEED variety. You are correct, there will likely NEVER be a game that fully satisfies all people all of the time for all time - but couldn't we get a wee bit closer?
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:37 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
It's been a while we've had a real conversation in this place... this feels good!! 
quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
Yes, you are also correct in that the Asian market seems to enjoy simple killing and farming over and over - however, that does NOT mean that they would not enjoy other things IF developers put them into the mmorpg.
I'm not so sure about that. The fact of the matter is every game that was successful here that tried to export to asian markets have failed there. And the asian games have failed here for the most part (Lineage 1 was a near flop in North America if I remember). The games that I know of which were asian-made are almost all centered around mindless serial-killing and grind. There must be something completely incompatible here...
quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
Bottom line, MMORPGs need to recognize that people - players - NEED variety. You are correct, there will likely NEVER be a game that fully satisfies all people all of the time for all time - but couldn't we get a wee bit closer?
The problem is that the definition of variety is very different from one person to the next. You may consider it repetitive to kill mob after mob (and I do to). Some other people will find it perfectly fine as long as they have different mobs to kill all the time, and different items to gather, and different areas to kill in. To you it's all the same: more killing. To them it's variety, and it's more than enjoyable. Still thinking of Lineage 2, I don't think that asians care that all avatars look the same as long as they have a variety of things they can gather and show. To me the identical-looking avatars are a huge sign of lack of variety though. Maybe it's because it's so overpopulated there anyway that they don't give as much meaning to individuality as we do?
So the current mmorpgs DO have variety, they just don't have the kind of variety that you and I crave for. And my fear is that if the developers go after the asian markets we will just be offered a different kind of variety, the one we (or at least I) can't stomach very much 
_________________
=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:21 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
[quote="Joey Nipps"]Yes, you are also correct in that the Asian market seems to enjoy simple killing and farming over and over - however, that does NOT mean that they would not enjoy other things IF developers put them into the mmorpg.
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
I'm not so sure about that. The fact of the matter is every game that was successful here that tried to export to asian markets have failed there.
Well, I don't know what games have tried to export from here to there - nor the ones that have failed. However, while that may or may not be true, it has little bearing on what I said. NO MMORPG that has exported (or any MMORPG for that matter) has had any serious variety in it's content - thus the point is still in question - in fact whether an MMORPG with variety would succeed in Western markets is unknown since there hasn't been one yet  .
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
And the asian games have failed here for the most part (Lineage 1 was a near flop in North America if I remember). The games that I know of which were asian-made are almost all centered around mindless serial-killing and grind.
Again, I don't know which games (and we really must restrict ourselves to MMORPGs not games in general) you are speaking of. After all, how many Western produced games have NOT been principally centered around more or less mindless serial-killing and grind??? EQ? Nope. DaOC? Nope. AC1 or AC2? Nope. Etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
There must be something completely incompatible here...
While it is certainly true that there ARE differences (cultural mostly) between Asians and Westerners - these are superficial at best and likely very transient. We are, after all, Humans together on the same spheroid - we share much, much, much more in common than we have in difference - especially at the core levels.
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
The problem is that the definition of variety is very different from one person to the next. You may consider it repetitive to kill mob after mob (and I do to). Some other people will find it perfectly fine as long as they have different mobs to kill all the time, and different items to gather, and different areas to kill in. To you it's all the same: more killing. To them it's variety, and it's more than enjoyable.
No, variety is variety - well defined. Just because having several different kinds of creatures to kill is NOT variety. I agree it IS variety in "things to kill" but this is not a variety of things to do as we are talking about. Killing is killing.
I do NOT disagree that there are people who not only do NOT mind the repetitive nature inherent in most (if not all) current MMORPGs but truly find it enjoyable - MORE POWER TO THEM. But just because they enjoy doing the same thing over and over and over does not mean they see it as variety - it is not. I enjoy eating cheese cake every meal (and in between) - but I do not disillusion myself with the belief that I have variety in my choice of desert (even if I DO eat different types of cheese cake).
Now, I DO agree with your intent insofar as there will be gamers with varying needs for true variety in an MMORPG activities (things to do) - but the whole point of any game (and MMORPGs in particular) is to appeal to a wide variety of people - which by definition means the game MUST appeal to a wide variety of tastes, needs, desires - and the only way to satisfy (or nearly so) a wide variety of tastes is to provide a wide variety of potentially taste fulfilling content. Cheese cake is NOT for everybody so do not expect to please a wide variety of people by opening a store that sells ONLY cheese cake.
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
Still thinking of Lineage 2, I don't think that asians care that all avatars look the same as long as they have a variety of things they can gather and show. To me the identical-looking avatars are a huge sign of lack of variety though. Maybe it's because it's so overpopulated there anyway that they don't give as much meaning to individuality as we do?
I would tend to agree with all of that. However, again, it is unlikely in the extreme that an MMORPG that provided for a wide variety of avatars would turn the Asian player off - they simply not afford themselves of that feature as much as a Western player. No harm, no foul - good for everybody.
BTW, I NEVER said that an MMORPG should not have mindless killing - I said the MMORPG should have variety - things for those who like mindless killing, something for those who like smelling the flowers - and things for eveybody in between. Most importantly, for those (many, many people I suspect) who get tired of doing the very same thing over and over - regardless of what it is - variety.
I ENJOY killing - it is just that I do not want to so that solely - to the exclusion of all else. Also, I tend to want the killing to have some purpose (other than leveling).
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
So the current mmorpgs DO have variety, they just don't have the kind of variety that you and I crave for.
Again, by definition, no - there is little or no variety. Yes, some people may not care - they may be perfectly content with a lack of variety and that is fine for them. But just because some people are content does not mean there is variety.
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
And my fear is that if the developers go after the asian markets we will just be offered a different kind of variety, the one we (or at least I) can't stomach very much
I do not disagree. However, what IS needed is for the developers of MMORPGs to realize what so many other developers of products through the years have realized - people are people and for the most part all want very similar things. Further, variety by it's very definition means that they MUST provide many, many different things to do. Variety is NOT defined by having 10 different colored automobiles for sale - that "might" confuse or satisfy a dullard - but only a dullard. Gamers (in particular MMORPG gamers) tend to NOT be dullards - they just act that way some times.
There is NO reason that an MMORPG cannot satisfy the "variety" desired by Western and by Asian markets.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:01 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
That I can remember, DAoC tried to export itself to Korea and pretty much failed. To be honest I did talk about gameS that were exported/imported to/from America/Asia, but I myself am aware of only DAoc and Lineage 1 and 2. Lineage 2 is still doing well enough as of right now I believe, but that might soon change. So anyway my bad for implying that there could be a whole lot of them 
But I think we'll have to agree to disagree on our "variety" issues You example of cars is a little simplistic if you just use colors. I would use the analogy of car models instead. If you looked just at one brand of car, they offer many models, with each their own characteristics. They are all cars, but they are a variety of cars. Mobs in an mmorpg are like different models of a same thing. They each have their own little features: some attack from a distance, others from up close, some are more vulnerable to blunt weapons, other to slashing ones... They are all monsters, but they are a variety or them. I'm arguing that for some people out there such a variety in an mmorpg is enough, even if it's just a small category.
What you want is a variety of different things to do in a game, others just want a variety of things to kill. I agree that a healthier mixture of both would be nice, something we haven't really seen from many games so far.
And finally, although DAoC is centered around killing as well as any other game, it still plays very differently than the lineage titles that have been so popular in asian countries. And you seem to put everyone in the same mold:
quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
While it is certainly true that there ARE differences (cultural mostly) between Asians and Westerners - these are superficial at best and likely very transient. We are, after all, Humans together on the same spheroid - we share much, much, much more in common than we have in difference - especially at the core levels.
I wouldn't be so quick to say that these differences are superficial. I am not being racist here, my wife comes from the Asia Pacific region, she grew up there. You would be amazed at the cultural differences that we have which affect our way of thinking and reacting, our every day life, even the way we see games. People are used to being stringed together closely over there, while we usually are comfortable if we have our own individual space, and that makes a world of a difference in many other things that are not so superficial. The repetitive accomplishment of the same thing over and over is not such a problem for my wife as it sometimes is for me. Granted this might simply be a personality issue rather than a racial issue, but from my experience the differences are great between our cultures, and they affect everything in a much more meaningful way than you seem to think. Just food for thought 
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=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Wed Jul 28, 2004 2:54 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
But I think we'll have to agree to disagree on our "variety" issues .... They are all monsters, but they are a variety or them. I'm arguing that for some people out there such a variety in an mmorpg is enough, even if it's just a small category.
What you want is a variety of different things to do in a game, others just want a variety of things to kill. I agree that a healthier mixture of both would be nice, something we haven't really seen from many games so far.
No, we don't have to disagree at all - you understood me perfectly. When I said "variety of things to do" I meant just that - NOT just a variety of mob types. You got it just fine. As I said, I agree that there will be some people that are perfectly satisfied with JUST a variety of mob types in a game. But then some people are perfectly satisfied with all sorts of things in life that don't satisfy other people .
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
And finally, although DAoC is centered around killing as well as any other game, it still plays very differently than the lineage titles that have been so popular in asian countries. And you seem to put everyone in the same mold:
I agree - there are MANY issues (as I said in the beginning of the post) that affect "quality" of an MMORPG. And even worse - popularity of a game (or anything else in life) doesn't always reflect "quality". There are many things that come together in something as complex as an MMORPG that ultimately will cause short and/or long term satisfaction.
More importantly there are MANY reasons (psychological and practical) that affect how long people will continue to play an MMORPG - being fully satisfied with the gameplay is JUST one. Take for example EQ. I have talked with many, many players of that game - and MOST are not satisfied with one or more aspects of the game. Many are downright bored due to the tedious nature of the game - but they CONTINUE to play. There are MANY, MANY reasons for this. And so with Asians (or any culture) - there are many reasons one or another type of game will "play well" there.
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
I wouldn't be so quick to say that these differences are superficial. I am not being racist here, my wife comes from the Asia Pacific region, she grew up there. You would be amazed at the cultural differences that we have which affect our way of thinking and reacting, our every day life, even the way we see games.
Sorry, I should have been more careful in my choice of phraseology. By "superficial" I meant that these differences are NOT core - that is not genetic in some way - culturally based only and THUS superficial in that they can change - we see that in almost all cultures as that culture is mixed within other cultures.
I believe that it is Human nature (that is it is hard coded into our brains) to "like" variety - variety in all things (food, drink, sex, games, etc.). Yes, it is likely true that cultural differences will make (at least) initial acceptance of some differences in game concepts (or anything else for that matter) problematical - but this does NOT imply that these "game concepts" are not likely to be ultimately a good thing for all gaming cultures.
Now back to the original topic  . If we look at players of current MMORPGs (EQ for an example), what we will find is that many (if not most) of them (particularly those who have played for some time) are looking for another MMORPG to play. They will tell you they love EQ, but then why are they looking? The answer is simple. Human nature tends to force us to "pretend" to be satisfied with something we have spent money and time on (anyone who has played EQ for 3 or more years have a lot invested) - but when you talk to these players (and use some intelligence in survey techniques), you WILL find that almost all of them ARE looking for another game to play (they WOULD prefer it to be in the EQ franchise understandably). Why? Simple - they are bored and want something else to "satisfy they gaming hunger". And after all - EQ has always and still does do what it is designed to do very well - provide endless hours of mindless killing in a graphically attractive environment - with LOTS and LOTS of things to collect. And they still are not satisfied!
Human nature also dictates that frequently we "lie" internally to ourselves - very well in fact. Thus, EQ players are disatisfied - but don't even really know why - they just feel it at the core. My best friend is a prime example. He has played for 5 years now and still proclaims that he is satisfied with EQ - HOWEVER his play time has trickled off to the point that he hasn't played EQ in several weeks even once now!!! But he still loves the game??? Right! That is internal lying working fully to protect his psychological investment in the game (plus he KNOWS there really isn't any other game out there that will do much better than EQ for him).
We need a fresh start - we do NOT need any more MMORPGs that just provide more and more mindless killing of a wide "variety" of mobs. We need other things to satisfy us.
For the most part, developers of MMORPGs have totally forgotten (or ignored) the core of what an MMORPG is supposed to be - a role play game simulation of the world - allowing the player to play a wide variety of roles with a wide variety of options open to him. Until they begin to provide the mechanisms for these things - well, all we will have is more EQ clones.
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Wed Jul 28, 2004 4:06 pm |
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Northchild
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 232
Location: New York, USA |
I've played only a few MMRPGs, most notably Ultima Online in the first year that it was released and Asheron's Call 2.
The most significant detractor of my experience with these multiplayer games was, paradoxially, other players. It's hard to become immersed in a fantasy world when someone runs-stutters by you, always runs, continually jumps and/or flourishes a weapon, and keeps shouting things like "GOT any ArmoR???!?!?", "HAHAHAHA", and "I lUV bADGErS", in addition to whatever Internet slang the kids are using these days. Don't even get me started about the kind of talk that goes on in population centers and division of labor/rewards.
This single but rather large issue will prevent me from playing any MMRPG until I'm absolutely sure that this sort of thing doesn't happen, or rarely happens. I enjoyed the Neverwinter Nights multiplayer mode, although I haven't been able to invest the time that I'd like to into it.
Jeez... I'm starting to sound like an old man. Consider this: in day-to-day life, as an adult, I interact with mostly other adults. In many MMRPGs, children, adults acting as children, or adults with the mentality of children, have adult-sized and adult-shaped avatars. This leads to an unwelcome disconnect of what I know to be socially sane behavior and what I see in the game world. It's as if I stepped out into the street into an early Hollywood depiction of an insane asylum.
Admittedly, there should be room for all the wonder of human behavior and there are certain institutions such as guilds in place that assist people in finding worthwhile companions, but quality MMRPG time has been the exception rather than the norm in my experience.
I don't have any suggestions about how to make these games more enjoyable for people who think like me. So, I play single-player games or games with one or two people that I know, then share the fun via. message boards. Maybe that's as close as I'm going to get to being social via the Internet. |
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Wed Jul 28, 2004 6:05 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
I doubt there will ever be a game where everyone stays in character.
If you want to play games like that then you need to play games with people who you trust. Obviously a MMORPG isnt going to provide what you want.
I would say that UO had a high degree of people staying in a particular character. Whether that character belonged in the Ultima Universe is another matter altogether, but at least people were consistent and didnt bring too much of the real world into the game.
I think the lack of a good social interaction system in the 3D MMORPG's has a very bad effect on roleplaying, and until someone creates a simple and effective means of communicating in these worlds, nothing is going to change.
I loved talking and socializing in UO, but I cant stand it in 3D MMORPG's with that irritatiing chat window thats constantly flooded with nonsensical gibberish! (From the Players AND the game system)
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Wed Jul 28, 2004 6:22 pm |
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