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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
| Prestige Class Discussions |
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Xen - I cheated (a little bit) and skimmed through the manual for HotU before it got wrapped up and immediately had a bunch of questions about the feats and prestige classes. I recalled you talking about them in one of the threads here, but I can not recall which. So.....
My suggestion/request - Could you make a sticky topic with your thoughts on the feats and the prestige classes? You are, by far, the most knowlegable expert on D&D I've run across and I value your opinions very highly.
Failing in that, what would you suggest for a Paladin 10, Fighter 3 going into HotU? I was thinking of weapons master (correct name?) since the Pally has found a Holy Avenger long sword, and it doesn't (as far as I know) get any better than that ... but he might be short a number of pre req feats and some stats.
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Tue Dec 23, 2003 12:52 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Champion of Torm provides a lot of complimentary powers for a Paladin. Weapon master is incredibly feat intensive (in pen and paper it is the most 'costly' prestige class to enter ever made). I don't know how much they dumbed it down for HOTU yet (alas, for want of a review copy the kingdom was lost...).
After 10 levels of Champion of Torm, taking you to level 23, you might be able to qualify for weapon master and then kick some serious butt.
After 20 levels of a base class or 10 levels of a prestige class always consider another prestige class. Generally, the powers you get from them are better than the core class powers -- especially for the fighting classes (not always, though). It depends on what you like. Advancing paladin will allow more turning of undead, open up some very nice epic feats (in pen and paper), and increase the lay on hands... which is far more useful in pen and paper because you can use to destroy undead.
"Hello, Mr Lich. Be thou healed, punk." *lay on hands for 160 damage to its 90 hit points, no save.*
Don't think you can do that in NWN, though.
Of course, there's the fact that lay on hands can be more powerful than the 3.5 edition heal... but since NWN is 3.0 (pity, as paladins get a serious upgrade in 3.5) it's not a factor.
I am taking my paladin to level 20 paladin then going champion of torm. He's a level 2 fighter, 16 paladin.
My evil play through will be with a fighter/necromancer/pale master. He'll kill everything with a word and a thought. I might use my fighter/ranger/blackguard from SoU .. but naturally I want to try as many of the 'new' classes as possible for the review.
Which means druid/shifter is in the works, as is paladin/dwarven defender. And Monk/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple.
Boo on them for making Shifter druid only. Boooo! In pen and paper Rangers could take the class at level 16, and were MUCH better at it (being superior combatants in a combat oriented prestige class, and not missing spell progression at all).
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"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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Tue Dec 23, 2003 1:29 pm |
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ScOut3R
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 15 Feb 2002
Posts: 299
Location: Hungary |
Hello!
I'm with a bard/red dragon. How should i level up? i thought about 20 bard/20 dragon. Does the 10 bard/30 dragon better? Or what do you suggest?
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Tue Dec 23, 2003 10:11 pm |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
Haven't got the game yet, but I have been reading a little on builds. People tend to disagree on the ideal, but Most suggest 10 is all you need in RDD. However, you have to decide if you want your char for external mods or the OC. Most people seem to max out between levels 25-32. That may determine how you plan your build. I'm sure Xen will have some good advice too, which I'll be interested in for a Sorc/RDD build.
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Wed Dec 24, 2003 12:32 am |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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10 is all you need in most prestige classes. Most prestige classes don't have scaling abilities beyond that in order to make it worth the while. For example, weapon master past level 10 would give you more uses of ki critical, etc ... but is that worth giving up a feat every two levels that you could be getting by going back to fighter? The answer is usually no.
For a sorcerer/dragon disciple definitely go 20 levels of sorcerer first, and then take red dragon disciple. They're NOT complementary classes, despite what the flavor text reads like. Red Dragon Disciple has very, very little to offer a sorcerer.
Bard is another matter. It adds some to the fighting capabilities. Either bard 10/dragon disciple 10 or more ... or for some real advantage go bard 5/ fighter 5/red dragon disciple.
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"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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Wed Dec 24, 2003 5:12 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
If RDD has very little to offer a sorc, why is it linked to that class? I planned at least level 20 sorc, before switching to RDD anyway. Looking further ahead to mods and level 40, what would make a good addition after 20 sorc/10 RDD? Some people have been suggesting one or two levels of Pally early on, ie 2Pal/20-23Sorc/10RDD!! Your thoughts here?
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If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Wed Dec 24, 2003 5:30 am |
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ScOut3R
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 15 Feb 2002
Posts: 299
Location: Hungary |
Thanks for your advices! I'll think it over again how i'll build my charecter.
Now i have a bard5/dragon 2 charecter and the only problem with him is that he has few HPs.
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Wed Dec 24, 2003 9:11 am |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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quote:
Originally posted by corwin
If RDD has very little to offer a sorc, why is it linked to that class? I planned at least level 20 sorc, before switching to RDD anyway. Looking further ahead to mods and level 40, what would make a good addition after 20 sorc/10 RDD? Some people have been suggesting one or two levels of Pally early on, ie 2Pal/20-23Sorc/10RDD!! Your thoughts here?
Nothing wrong with a few levels of paladin... one or two will do it in 3.0. A better choice is Sorcerer 30/DD 10. A better choice than that is Sorcerer 40 who screams "I have the blood of dragons in my veins! THE POWER!!!!!".
Anything that gives you a +8 strength and adds little to nothing to spell powers is not a class for a caster. They just did the whole 'dragon blood is cool' thing.
No, Sorcerer 6, fighter 14, DD 10 is a much more sensible use of the Dragon Disciple class. A fighter will whimper a little at the sucky hit points and poor base attack, but immunity to a few will effects and big bonuses to strength and a breath weapon will help ease the pain a little.
DD in pen and paper does have its advantages for sorcerer if you hold off on it... it grants extra spell slots (not sure if DD in HOTU does). It could let you cast another 5 level 9 spells a day, theoretically. Of course, since caster level isn't increasing you'll never HURT anything at that level because they'll resist your spells in their sleep.
And yes... your bards hit points will be attrocious. That's why I recommended mixing in fighter until level 10.
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"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:23 pm |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
So, I should forget about RDD with my level 20 sorc from NWN and just build it to level 40 in HOU!! Would Pally enhance it at all?
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If God said it, then that settles it!
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Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:32 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Depends on how badly you want your charisma bonus to saving throws. Generally, that's worth a caster level for a sorcerer... especially in a computer game.
You can never have too much of a good thing when it comes to saving throw bonuses. Of course, you'll still roll a 1 fairly frequently and croak. That's just the way things go. 
Level of paladin would let you slap on armor if you're feeling suicidal, as well. Better at low levels for an arcane caster than at high levels.
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"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:19 pm |
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konny666
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 219
Location: Babylon 6 |
In its current state, PM is a bit underpowered in HotU. Not sure how PnP handled it, but PM never gets immunity to sneak attack, just critical hit. Which is a non-issue if you play at "Normal" anyways (I don't, but...).
For Necro/PM builds, you tend to lose more by going to PM early and giving up higher level magicks. Fighter/Necro/PM builds would make more sense. But BW encourages Necro/PM builds in the manual so I can see a lot of people trying that route and getting a bit dissatisfied when their henchmen take out half the enemy group while you're still mumbling your first offensive spell.
WM seems to be a good choice. It is indeed feat-heavy though. If you're playing a campaign where everyone ISN'T immune to crits, WMs are extremely useful. You'll be crit'ing all the time. Don't forget you'll need DEX/INT of at least 13 - might rule out some of your current fighter char's. |
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Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:56 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Pale Masters are usually better if built from Cleric (I THINK they can be built from cleric... I'd have to look at the requirements in Defenders of the Faith, as I've only skimmed that book once or twice) because they're more combat heavy.
And again, like all 'don't give you full casting per level' prestige classes it's better to get 17 to 20 caster levels first.
Immune to crit should be immunity to sneak attack. They're the same mechanic. That's just plain sloppy.
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"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Fri Dec 26, 2003 4:13 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Pale Masters use Arcane magic, not Divine. So if your Paladin, Druid or Cleric wanted to become a Pale Master, then you have to grab some levels of Wizard, Sorcerer or Bard.
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Fri Dec 26, 2003 6:17 pm |
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goshuto
Wanderer
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1142
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Five levels, actually, as PM requires level 3 of arcane spellcasting. (and any non-good alignment)
quote:
Originally posted by konny666
If you're playing a campaign where everyone ISN'T immune to crits, WMs are extremely useful.
That, unfortunately, isn't the case of the HotU OC, where everybody and their mother is immune to crits. Those that aren't immune are of CR easy or lower, and can be killed with one hit anyway, crit'ing or not.
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"Tree stuck in cat. Firemen baffled."--Simcity 3K
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."--Soren Aabye Kierkegaard |
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Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:24 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Ok, 5 necromancer/5 fighter/pale master it is.
Although you might be able to do a really weird build with a bard/blackguard/pale master. That is one seriously messed up evil little bard. 
Mixing blackguard with pale master could be devastatingly brutal. In pen and paper you'd simply go fighter/wizard/blackguard/pale master ... but NWN limits you to three classes.
(Heh. So no Vampire Hunter D.... Fighter/Ranger (Undead Enemy favored)/Undead Bane/Master Samurai (for the Mad Katana Skillz) .)
And High Level D&D has you fighting things immune to crit and sneak attack more often than not. It's the nature of the game... rogues begin to feel the burn about level 16 or so.
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:35 pm |
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