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Hyrrix
Fourty-two
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Posts: 282
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| MMORPGDot Feature: Ekim's Gamer View: Griefing for Dummies |
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<P>In today's editorial Ekim <A href="http://www.mmorpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=749">talks</A> about the accountability of griefers for their actions. Here's a snip:</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE><I>
<P></P>
<P class=ww-retrait-1re-ligne lang=en-CA align=justify>Admit it. There has been a time or two when you felt like you could just drop your gloves and duke it out with that big Troll guy that thinks he’s so much better than everyone else, just to show him how wrong he is. And it probably happened even a lot more that you wanted to show the other person what manners were by giving him the beating of his life after he stepped in front of you to steal that last pull. I certainly felt it before. Most of the time I don’t do anything about those instances because, well… what can I do, really? Calling someone names won’t do much harm.</P></I></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P><BR>Read the full arcticle by going through <A href="http://www.mmorpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=749">this</A> link!</P> |
Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:42 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
I totally agree with that. Developers are the only neutral party that have everything to gain by designing systems to curb griefing. But it also depends on each games style. Like in Darkfall, a PvP, what would be considered griefing to your average player will be acceptable because its designed to be an Open PvP game and you give your consent every time you log into the servers. Also, having PvP open gives me a chance to exact revenge, completely. With the right skills, i can track down the person that humiliated me earlier and send his character to the bindstone. Everyone is going to point fingers at everyone else, thats inevitable, so thats why i say Ekim knows whats up and lets leave it to the developers to enforce justice because if players are given too much power, they will inevitably abuse it (i.e. bend it to their personal advantage). However, player policing can be implemented in a game, but its game-rules must be developer-made and enforced by intentional design. Such things like that might make it into Darkfall, such as a morality point system where those who misbehave are going to be curbed by negative morality, so you can tell if the guy Joe walking up to you is a lawless PKer or not.
Its all in the code. Players are too self-interested and immature (face it, most of them) to handle it. That is why in the Real World we have very intelligent people called Judges who say whats what and who pays for whatever, and not leaving it up to Vigilanties to deal out justice -- which probably wont be justice because they cant see the big picture, vigilanties can only see what they think is right, which may in fact be wrong.
Last edited by Ammon777 on Sat Oct 04, 2003 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sat Oct 04, 2003 12:00 am |
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Yokom
Guest
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You must have never played a game with PVP. If they take your kill on a mob just lay waste to them and thier clan. done deal. |
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Sat Oct 04, 2003 10:32 am |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Yokom
You must have never played a game with PVP. If they take your kill on a mob just lay waste to them and thier clan. done deal.
Erm... I have played many games with many forms of PvP. But that's not the point. 
What does laying waste to the guy and his clan really bring? They die and respawn back somewhere else? Hmm.. Yeah that taught them a lesson all right!  Actually, they probably laughed on their way back to whatever it was they were doing.
Your plan really doesn't have any weight to it unless there's perma-death. And if there was, would you, as a guild-mate of a friend who would claim to have had his pull stealed, be willing to risk your character's life to maybe lay waste on this clan? Even if your own clan wins in the end, you could still die in the middle of the battle.... I'm willing to bet that a lot of your guild-mates wouldn't even consider doing it in the end, so again there's no consequence.
Open revenge is not a solution, most of the time, even though it could make you feel better about yourself.
_________________
=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Sat Oct 04, 2003 1:47 pm |
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Lord_Brownie
High Emperor
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Posts: 575
Location: Unfashionable arm of the spiral galaxy |
Before any discussion can focus on the topic, definitions must be agreed upon. I'll through some out, so they can be refined, and discussioin can continue.
PK- Players will activily fight and kill other players, within the mechanics and spirit (programers ideals early one, but community ultimatly changes this) of the game. Anti-PK refers to those who PK, but call their role as being to limit or spot PK (I contradiction of course, should be: PK police).
PvP- Ability for Players to engage in PK activities.
Exploiter- One who attempts to break into the code of a game, or use bugs or other problems in a game code to gain an advantage in the game. The advantage can be economic or harassment of other players.
Griefer- One who, due to disengagement with a game, uses game rules or exploits to the detriment of other players beyond the spirit or intent of the game design.
Lord_Brownie- One of the players who will nolonger be able to keep up with all the new rules for MMRPGs, because so many are coming out with different rule sets. 
Soon we will have two more distinctions:
Game mechanics- Rules of a game established by the computer code that compries the game.
Player Laws; Player Rules- Laws or rules that players set in a game using the game mechanics.
Soon we will be able to use all the terms of western ethics and legal speak to talk about an MMRPG, which is not a good thing, I play to get away from the world, not nearer to it.
LB |
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Sat Oct 04, 2003 2:18 pm |
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Yokom
Village Dweller
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 3
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First off you use the term "pull", that made me think of Earth and beyond. where most would pull a mob away from a pack to kill it alone and then go to a herd to get another. EnB is a carebear game when I saw it in beta and you cant shoot the guy that romps on the mob you have just pulled from the herd. Hence why I never went retail in the game. Now in Neocrashalot your cash and exp for killing mobs is due the damage you do to a mob so its not a big deal, the one to do most damage gets loot rights good way to handle such events. Now in Jumpgate you can steal a mob kill in one shot but trust me someone will show up to make you pay for such actions as player cop roles works very well. There are faction defenders that will take the bounty to stop you from being an ass to thier guys.
Now your idea that perma death stops some form of griefing is so wrong, let me explain. Now in games where you have no skill in combat it is mearly a time investment in levling to determine how strong and good in combat you are the no life griefers will strive on perma death more then ever since the char they killed will have to start over and they will have killed the game before you level back up. They will strive on sitting and waiting till your fighting a mob and engauged then stab you in back as you will be perma dead there is almost zero chance you can come back and take revenge. So in this example perma death removes accountability for lame griefer actions. |
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Sat Oct 04, 2003 5:36 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
The problem isnt so much the systems that griefers/cheaters abuse, but the problem is the griefers/cheaters themselves. Maybe we wouldnt see as many as these immature brats being griefers if the subscription cost was so high that their parents didnt want to pay for it. Until then, in Darkfall i will rely on myself and friends to deal out justice. And in Dragon Empires, i will rely on gameplay mechanisms. I would rather deal out justice myself, to tell you the truth. Its more fun that way. Some of you forget (or just dont know) that in Darkfall there is the morality-alignment counter. Griefers are going to be living hard, hard lives in Darkfall. Nobody will like them, in fact everyone will kill them on sight with no negative repurcusions, because their moral-alignment counter is bad, and so it will be their own fault for murdering that newbie or spawn camping that guy a week ago. They will have a hard time buying and selling, or binding at places, even socializing, and thats the way it should be. Outlaws and griefers will have to go to outlaw towns to live, and thats perfect bountyhunting grounds for good aligned characters, just as the opposite is true. Thats the way it should be. Any society must have division between law and chaos to function. The good will band together against the evil. Thats what will be fun: the conflict in Darkfall between the good guys and the outlaws. I cant wait for it, its gonna be so fun. Now thats adventure, i tell ye. |
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Sat Oct 04, 2003 8:55 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
Greifing is definitly diferent for diferent people. The people that whine and complane about being pk'ed are greifers to me because they perposefully ruin the game for me by whining.
In AO I once had a guy bothering me non-stop because I beat two people in the arena at once. (When the game first started you could super-nerf yourself with implants, I had ql lvl 100-125 implants at lvl 62, and I had the 600 mission necklace). He said I cheated and then reported me for cheating.
CS was rude to me and treated me like a cheater until they checked the logs or whatever they do, but I was cleared (kind of rudely also). But the whole time the guy kept bothering me, telling everyone I was a cheater, blah blah blah.
How is that not greifing? He ruined my night purposefully. He wouldn't step back in the arena and since we were both rebels I couldn't attack him in pvp zones.
I would of gave a months paycheck to turn AO into an totally open PVP free game with permadeath just to kill that idiot once. I would of gave my left testicle to do it over and over again. But he probably would of logged of if that ever happened.
I never minded getting ganked 1/100th as much as I mind the spammers and whinners.
I loved AO and stopped playing because there wasn't enough PVP. I stopped playing SB because PvP was way to quick (has this changed?).
I am not a rat, I would rather burn in hell than tell CS that someone is annoying me. I want to make that person shut up myself, like I can in real life.
The whinners are the greifers that ruin the game for me. Not the pk ganker/griefers. |
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Sat Oct 04, 2003 9:04 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Lord_Brownie
Soon we will be able to use all the terms of western ethics and legal speak to talk about an MMRPG, which is not a good thing, I play to get away from the world, not nearer to it.
EXACTLY! I was trying to get to a similar conclusion in the article, but perhaps you nailed it even better than I did.
quote:
Originally posted by Yokom
First off you use the term "pull", that made me think of Earth and beyond.
The term "pulling" goes as far back as EQ (not entirely sure if it was used in UO...), and your definition of it is quite correct. But before E&B, a lot of games used it, EQ and DAoC to only name these two. And while I agree to a certain extent that E&B was a "carebear" game (good one! ), I wasn't thinking about that one specifically.
quote:
Originally posted by Yokom
Now your idea that perma death stops some form of griefing is so wrong, let me explain.
I'm not sure how you got the idea that I am saying that perma-death is a solution. If you go back and read the entire article over, you'll see that I give specific examples to prove that it's actually not. If anything, perma-death could actually be used as a more serious greifing tool itself, and that's my whole point about it! 
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
Griefers are going to be living hard, hard lives in Darkfall. Nobody will like them, in fact everyone will kill them on sight with no negative repurcusions, because their moral-alignment counter is bad, and so it will be their own fault for murdering that newbie or spawn camping that guy a week ago.
Hmm... A couple of small points to make here. First, greifers might have to live a hard life, but if that very hard life turns out to be a long and plentiful one? You'll have a very powerful greifer on your hands, and he might possibly be next to unstoppable. And then no "good" player will even want to risk taking him down because they will risk losing their own character in the process (or one of his character's lives, depending on the game's final concepts).
Also, the whole problem isn't so much about what repercussions happen when you kill someone. The whole deal is about the repercussions of being killed yourself! I don't give a damn about having my reputation hit because I killed someone. I'm sure there will be ways to fix that in the game (what if it happened by mistake??  ). But what happens when I'm at the wrong end of the blade? That's the whole problem, and I don't believe that any form of perma-death addresses that.
_________________
=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Sun Oct 05, 2003 3:10 pm |
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Lord_Brownie
High Emperor
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Posts: 575
Location: Unfashionable arm of the spiral galaxy |
quote:
Originally posted by Lord_Brownie
Soon we will be able to use all the terms of western ethics and legal speak to talk about an MMRPG, which is not a good thing, I play to get away from the world, not nearer to it.
Anyway, the more I thank about this more I know I am wrong: I play to get into certain aspects of the real world, but not others. I love the exploring of moral and ethical values that RPGs allow, and have always loved it. In the early days of table top games, the exploring of character types and alignments where great, later in CRPGs the focused was for the game's designer to make a game that communicated about characters, actions, and consequences (not always good characters). The difference between these two media is that table top and single player CRPGs are micro experiences, where values can be explored that deal solely with the 'self' aspect of the characters, and their interaction with the environment. But MMRPGs by definition are macro experiences, involving a multitude of people. The focus is no longer the ‘self’ of character, because, so far, these games have focused on 'the perfect group' (EQ, DAoC) or social-political aspect (what early UO ended up being). So it’s not that I play to get away from the world, just to explore it at a different level than the macro. This does not keep me from enjoy MMRPGs, I just dream of future games where both aspects will be apart of the experience. As long as the macro is the focus of the game, the grippers and others that have been apart of the western world (and every major human society) will try to find ways to attack the social status quo in the game. Only a concerted effort by the programmers and player base of the each game will be able to keep the numbers down so the majority doesn’t get frustrated and quit.
Funny, I can’t see to find my own post above? Hope I didn’t say anything so crazy it got removed 
LB |
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Sun Oct 05, 2003 5:23 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
Griefers are going to be living hard, hard lives in Darkfall. Nobody will like them, in fact everyone will kill them on sight with no negative repurcusions, because their moral-alignment counter is bad, and so it will be their own fault for murdering that newbie or spawn camping that guy a week ago.
Hmm... A couple of small points to make here. First, greifers might have to live a hard life, but if that very hard life turns out to be a long and plentiful one? You'll have a very powerful greifer on your hands, and he might possibly be next to unstoppable. And then no "good" player will even want to risk taking him down because they will risk losing their own character in the process (or one of his character's lives, depending on the game's final concepts)...
OK i usually hate discussing anything on boards because people always never consider my good points but focus on the bad points. Thats human nature i guess... Anyway, today ive changed my thinking about this subject.
No, you dont understand what im talking about. The problem is not going to exist in Darkfall because the game is Freeform Open PvP -- in other words it centers around that type of thing -- everyone is going to gank and be ganked, no question. Possessions will switch hands constantly. It is Freeform because anything goes -- like in reality, you can do just about anything you want -- while there will be consequences. By logging into the Darkfall server, you are consenting right then and there that anything can happen. I like Darkfall for the freedom. I play these games to experience another reality, not to escape from real life. You arent going to escape real life when there are Real Live People in the game with you. pffft.
You all think the solution to griefers is to simply make sure they cant exist in a system. Wrong! Thats never going to happen, you will never be rid of them, no matter what you do; so get used to them being around, more or less, in one form or another. Just grow a backbone and deal with them. The best thing to do with a griefer is to ignore them and move on. If they stole something from you through taking advantage of bad game design, then by the gods, either kill them and get it back, or, if there isnt anything you can do, forget about it and learn from it -- next time be more careful around people you dont know, and get some experience from it.
Now with Darkfall, and to a certain extent the other upcoming PvP games DE and ToA, they arent going to be any stronger than any of us in Darkfall -- on the contrary, they will have major disadvantages. This is why: in Darkfall, they will be dying constantly to bountyhunters, npc guards, and anyone that sees them because of their negative status, losing all their possessions every time. Even if they steal their possessions from other players that they kill wrongly (which cant happen in Darkfall because anything goes), they have it worse than we do because 1) we have protection from our clan, 2) we have npc guards protections, 3) we can gain things faster and sell them faster because we have more resources that they do not, like a town, easy access to merchants, a convenient place to bind, ect. They will congregate with their kind, and that will be fun to fight them clan-to-clan like real men.
If you cant handle or agree with the design decisions and the freedom of Darkfall (or ToA), then by all means dont play them. If you cant handle being griefed, i suggest that you should NOT play any multiplayer game at all, because whenever you encounter people, no matter how careful you are and what precautions the developers can make, eventually griefers WILL find you, twice or more times. Ive only been (what i consider) griefed a few times, and ive played these games for four years now -- i think its been three times ive been murderously pissed off at a guy in-game, and i learned early on methods to avoid them and so that is why it hasnt happened since. But that is only in MMOs. I play other multiplayer games, and I play BF1942 all the time, and some guys are nice and others are jerks. Its called human nature...
Either just /ignore the bastards and move on -- or else, if you're anything like me, go after them with all your resources and make some justice out of the situation. One time in DAOC i left a guild, and this guy from the guild started harassing me, calling me "weak" and "ungrateful ------" and crap, which wasnt warranted at all -- that guy was one of the guild officers. So i talked to the guild-master, who is a cool guy. After a confrontation (which i did not witness) between them, that officer jerk was kicked out of the guild permanently by the guild-master, and so then he quit DAOC entirely for his mistake in misjudging what Ammon can get done and why he should watch his tongue around me (although i bet he just left the server). That was justified. Now nobody messed with me ever again, especially from that guild...
I can respect that you might feel that you are a victim to them, but by all means, just deal with it. But i dont respect people griping about it constantly when they only encounter it 1% of the time. In BF1942, i get tk'ed constantly, so what! I tk them back and consider the matter closed. If they do it again, i make sure to avoid them by spawning somewhere else, and they get booted when the next admin logs on, hopefully. |
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Sun Oct 05, 2003 9:20 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
OK i usually hate discussing anything on boards because people always never consider my good points but focus on the bad points.
Good point! (By the way Ammon, when you - or anyone else - makes a good point that doesn't get discussed, it's not so much a sign that people don'T care. It doesn't get discussed because it was a good point, most probably, and there's just nothing to discuss about it anymore. If we were all here to agree with each other, I guess there wouldn't be a discussion )
That being said...
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
The problem is not going to exist in Darkfall because the game is Freeform Open PvP -- in other words it centers around that type of thing -- everyone is going to gank and be ganked, no question.
Honestly, no one can say that it won't happen in an open PvP game because it happened to other open-PvP games before Furthermore, nothing can be "sure" as long as the game is still in development. We just don't know how the concepts on paper will play out in the real world yet, and when we do, changes will come about for sure.
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
By logging into the Darkfall server, you are consenting right then and there that anything can happen.
True. If the game has open-PvP, there is no reason to complain if you get PKed. None at all. You're supposed to expect it actually.
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
I like Darkfall for the freedom. I play these games to experience another reality, not to escape from real life. You arent going to escape real life when there are Real Live People in the game with you. pffft.
When I played pen&paper D&D I can honestly say that we totally escaped reality for a few hours. We were among friends, we were all together in the same room, usually in a kitchen, surrounded by every day appliances, and we had no trouble escaping reality. Playing with other people should not be an obstacle. I myself do play to escape reality for a few hours, not forget it mind you. And please don't misunderstand escaping with forgetting! I don't forget about reality, and those who do might have a problem.
So I guess I disagree here a little. I too play these games to experience another reality, but I think that's just another fancy way of saying that I want to escape my own real life for a short period of time. It's saying the same thing, really.
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
You all think the solution to griefers is to simply make sure they cant exist in a system. Wrong! Thats never going to happen, you will never be rid of them, no matter what you do;
I agree here as well. And I think that was a point I was trying to make. Griefers will exist, no matter what. But the discussion here should be more about ways to control them, and whether players should handle that on their own. And my answer is no. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, no.
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
Now with Darkfall, and to a certain extent the other upcoming PvP games DE and ToA, they arent going to be any stronger than any of us in Darkfall -- on the contrary, they will have major disadvantages. This is why: in Darkfall, they will be dying constantly to bountyhunters, npc guards, and anyone that sees them because of their negative status, losing all their possessions every time.
I think you misunderstand me. I don't expect any "griefers" or any type of evil players to have a particular advantage (system-wise) over others. I am saying they'll be more powerful because if they survive long enough they will have seen so many players trying to get to them that they'll have experience and knowledge. Never underestimate knowledge and experience! A PvP player that has seen dozens of battles will eat alive someone who has been involved in only a couple, even if he has weapons twice as powerfull as the more experienced guy does.
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
If you cant handle or agree with the design decisions and the freedom of Darkfall (or ToA), then by all means dont play them.
Again I agree. But sometimes people are misinformed, especially by hype machines and clever marketing campaigns... Still, if you don't like a game, don't play it. I might also add: if you don't play it, don't complain about it either, although I fear I might hit some people's ticklish sense with that one...
* * * *
There, I tried to be balanced with my agree/disagree comments
_________________
=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Mon Oct 06, 2003 2:51 pm |
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