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| Who will be U.S president |
| Bush |
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53% |
[ 16 ] |
| Kerry |
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46% |
[ 14 ] |
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| Total Votes : 30 |
Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
@Hexy: There's a lot of work to do in Afghanistan. It was a mess before we got there. Of course it's going to be a mess when we get there and for awhile afterwards. But progress is being made now. For instance, under the Taliban, only about 1 million children (mostly boys) were in school. Today, there's over 4 million, including about 1.4 million girls who never would have had the chance to go to school if the Taliban was still in power. Over 2.5 million Afghan refugees have returned to their country. The average daily wage has increased. As they build a new economy and get some infrastructure built up, unemployment will decrease. They're heavily reliant on foriegn aid to do that since their economy was practically based on the production of illegal drugs under the Taliban. They're starting over from scratch.
Iraq has a jump-start on them since they already have a decent infrastructure. Iraq also has the oil industry that can be used to build back up their economy and they're already back up to their pre-war production levels. Afghanistan doesn't have that, so it's going to be harder rebuilding that country. But it is happening. It'll just take longer since we didn't have a lot to start with in the first place and we're still fighting remnants of the former regime.
Specific examples of Kerry contridicting himself? How about the speech he gave to teamster union members saying that he'd support drilling in the arctic wildlife refuge. At the same time he was running a campaign ad bragging about voting against drilling in the arctic wildlife refuge. Or the other part of the ad that claimed he sounded the alarm on terrorism years before 9-11. And how did he do that? He voted to cut funding for our intelligence and defense agencies. Yeah, that's really sounding the alarm.
That's just one ad where he's contridicting himself.
Roqua already answered your other question on business moving overseas.
Even with all that, unemployment is down and growth is up.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:14 pm |
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The Republican
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 28
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quote:
Originally posted by Val
Roqua already answered your other question on business moving overseas.
Even with all that, unemployment is down and growth is up.
Also note that a Jobless recovery is a lie. Since there are jobs being created. The main reason unemployment is very slow. Because most people gave up looking. Thats mainly from the high tech labor pool. |
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Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:34 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
All signs point to we're screwed. We humped law ontop of law, and expense ontop of expense, and made it so wages are so inflexible that a business would have to be retarded to want to incure the expenses that business in America costs. Its a nice country to sell your product, not make it. The jobs are going, and then the support jobs for those jobs disappear, then the capital eventually follows, then countries that are smarter and more deserving will be the economic super powers. And eventually we will be the ones willing to work for super cheap and business will come back here and the worlds gdp will equal out and we really will be globilized.
Of course companies want to be able to exploit cheap employees, and avoid having those annoying accountants etc checking their affairs. The laws designed to protect the weels of the machinery are not the main problem.
quote:
Specific examples of Kerry contridicting himself? How about the speech he gave to teamster union members saying that he'd support drilling in the arctic wildlife refuge. At the same time he was running a campaign ad bragging about voting against drilling in the arctic wildlife refuge. Or the other part of the ad that claimed he sounded the alarm on terrorism years before 9-11. And how did he do that? He voted to cut funding for our intelligence and defense agencies. Yeah, that's really sounding the alarm.
That's just one ad where he's contridicting himself.
Really? I'm actually intrigued now. Did he really flip-flop that outragely or did he simply acknowledge the other side of the debate, which he has been known to do? Many people seem to equal viewing things from another point of view to changing your mind.
As for sounding the 9-11 alarm, maybe Kerry was the one pointing to that 9-11 alarm report gathering dust on Dubyas desk, trying to get one of the Bush brain-thrust to read it to Bush?
BTW, didn't Bush say that he wasn't going to use 9-11 for his campaign? Talk about flip-floping!
quote:
Roqua already answered your other question on business moving overseas.
Even with all that, unemployment is down and growth is up.
As far as I've heard, it's stuck on 5.6%.
And as for people who enjoy trying to shift the blame of the current recession to Clinton, here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31994-2004Mar4.html?referrer%3Demailarticle
As for wanting tax-cuts, I thought this is what helped send the federal budget deficit sky high?
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:35 pm |
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Sir Markus
Counselor of the King
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 369
Location: Columbus, Ohio USA |
This mural was found in Nasiriya, Iraq almost exactly a year ago. Make your own judgements as to their intentions, but it certainly doesn't look like a tribute to the victims of 9/11.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/26/sprj.irq.mural/ |
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Wed Mar 10, 2004 9:27 pm |
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OctarineDragon
Head Merchant
Joined: 28 Nov 2003
Posts: 57
Location: The Void |
If I could, I'd vote for Nader.
Actually I believe I should be entitled to vote even though I'm not American. But, after all, every U.S. administration in the past 60 years has regarded to be their job to make the rest of the world do as they thought it should (succeeding only partly at it as long as there was another superpower), it would only be democratically sound if we get a say in who's to be the next guy bullying us around.
Personally, I was stunned speechless when Bush pulled off his little coup and the world sat by grumbling to themselves. I wasn't surprised when things then proceeded to take a turn for the worse with the world economy, world peace, world equality and world justice taking a nosedive.
Sure, you say, Bush is bad, but there are people who might do a worse job even. Maybe. But fear has never been a good counsel. and if you are not happy with the obvious alternative to Bush (Kerry), it's your fault if you settle for the lesser evil. Its thinking like that which makes the world such a screwed up place. |
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Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:04 pm |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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The Republican:
quote:
Hugs for thugs huh!
Those terrorists are animals and they should never have the same rights. hey lost those rights when they killed 3,000 Americans.
To say that they have rights (to hear the charges against them, to have access to legal councel, to be tried before a court based on evidence within reasonable time) is not the same as saying they should get of scot-free. As a patriot, you of all people should have faith in the capability of your legal system to find a just sentence for these people. There is a reason why these rights were established - to ensure justice is done. If they are found guilty justice should be done, if no evidence of guilt can be found then they should be free. In fact already some had to be let go, because no evidence for their guilt was found.
It is mind boggling and ironic that one of americas greatest achievements, the standards of it own and international law (which the USA largely helped to shape and enforce), is now dismatled and scorned by people who call themselves american patriots. A true patriot it would seem to me, should trust in the strength of law and in the strength of his country - the risk that these people may still represent can not harm america and can be dealt with in the framework of a legal system, just like any other dangerous criminal.
By the way, none of these people is held for any direct involvement in the Septmeber 11 attack, for all I read. |
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Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:40 pm |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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quote:
Also note that a Jobless recovery is a lie. Since there are jobs being created. The main reason unemployment is very slow. Because most people gave up looking. Thats mainly from the high tech labor pool.
Not that what you said seems to make much sense, but about the lie thing:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,289736,00.html
(The original article isnt directly linkable) |
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Wed Mar 10, 2004 11:52 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Yes, he did flip-flop. You can see the ad on his website. He's promised to filibuster any ANWR bill. Yet, when he spoke to teamster's head, James Hoffa, he said he was all for it and all for drilling all over America.
How about another example of a Kerry flip-flop?
Kerry was one of 20 senators to cast a no vote on a bill to provide for the imposition of the death penalty for the terrorist murder of United States nationals abroad. But then in a presidential debate sponsored by CNN and the LA Times Larry King asked him this question:
King: You are against capital punishment, except in the case of terrorism.
Kerry: Correct.
You can see the transcript here.
Then his flip-flop on gay marriage. First he's for the Massachusetts ruling back in November. Now he says and I quote: "I oppose gay marriage and disagree with the Massachusetts Court's decision."
I'm starting to think he has never met a side of an issue he didn't like.
Which 9-11 alarm report? There was none. Mostly because our intelligence agencies weren't communicating with each other. Budget cuts, you understand?
As for Bush saying he wasn't going to use 9-11 to promote his campaign, I find that laughable. When did he say that?
As for that report, I find it interesting that the journalist neglects to mention how economies have cyclical behavior. Or that we were still using Clinton's budget (the new budget doesn't take effect until the next fiscal year). Or that the GNP was already sinking following the dotcom bubble burst.
Recessions are natural parts of the general business cycle, expansion, peak, recession, trough, that can take from 5 to 10 years to cycle through. Of much greater interest and value, at least to me, are the indicators that lead up to recession within the 12 to 18 months preceding. What was happening in the fixed investment and inventory cycles? Were there governmental actions that affected the economy? What were they and how did they operate to affect the economy?
Somehow I just have to doubt the notion that someone, even the President, can cause the economy to sink into negative numbers in their first few months in office.
And pray tell, how can the unemployement rate be stuck when it's only been 5.6 for 2 months? Here's the numbers since last June if you'd like to look:
2003 06 - 6.3
2003 07 - 6.2
2003 08 - 6.1
2003 09 - 6.1
2003 10 - 6.0
2003 11 - 5.9
2003 12 - 5.7
2004 01 - 5.6
2004 02 - 5.6
It looks like it moving to me. And it's moving down.
And yes, I want tax-cuts. I also want actual spending cuts. The deficits would not occur if the government cut it's spending. But unfortunately, I have yet to see any government that has willingly done that. They just grow until they're so bloated they collapse under their own weight.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Thu Mar 11, 2004 3:53 am |
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RPG Frog
Blade Runner
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 748
Location: the Matrix |
quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
Jobless economy: This is due to globilization and profit maximization and the unflexibility of wages. Levis just closed the last two of its 65 factories it had in America just so it could stay competetive. Microsoft moving jobs off shore, Dell moving jobs off shore. China is now considered a stable government. India is a bussiness paradise. The only thing America has to offer now is capital. Other countries like India will copy our 401k program and will have the capital, the jobs, and highly educated and hungry work force, and then will take over America's role of economic super-power.
Right on Roqua. The president had nothing to do with this. People were getting layed off about the time he took office. The problem with our economy today is that we are service based instead of goods based. We practically manufacture nothing. Down with Globalism!!!
Kind of like healthcare...I think healthcare in the US sucks. It has nothing to do with republicans like democrats will tell you. The problem is all these #$@% lawyers. It costs so much money for insurance for hospitals to protect themselves from lawsuits that our insurance premiums go through the roof and companies keep cutting their coverage or not offering any at all. It really pisses me off to see families with people working 2 low-paying jobs to pay the bills...yet they get no health insurance because the corporations hire 10x part-time help instead of having 20% of the staff working full-time with benefits. But the reason is all the losers suing people. $#%^ Lawyers. This is why healthcare is better in other countries!
So, I would have to vote for Bush. At least I get to see my tax money in the form of explosions on TV!
_________________
Between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities…there was an Age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars…Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand…to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandaled feet. - Robert E. Howard |
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Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:11 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Originally posted by Val
As for Bush saying he wasn't going to use 9-11 to promote his campaign, I find that laughable. When did he say that?
Laugh it up then, link and quote below:
quote:
In January of last year, as he was asking Congress for the largest increase in military spending in 20 years, Bush made an explicit vow about the war on terror:
"I have no ambition whatsoever to use this as a political issue."
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/newyork/politics/nyc-henn0305,0,1194937.column?coll=nyc-manheadlines-politics
quote:
Which 9-11 alarm report? There was none. Mostly because our intelligence agencies weren't communicating with each other. Budget cuts, you understand?
Actually, there was. On August 6, 2001, there was a little note, crying for attention, explaining what Bin Laden was about to do. It probably got to Bush's desk, but not any farther.
http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/53/news-corn.php
and
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/07/29/findlaw.analysis.dean.911/
Get it?
quote:
Somehow I just have to doubt the notion that someone, even the President, can cause the economy to sink into negative numbers in their first few months in office.
And pray tell, how can the unemployement rate be stuck when it's only been 5.6 for 2 months? Here's the numbers since last June if you'd like to look:
2003 06 - 6.3
2003 07 - 6.2
2003 08 - 6.1
2003 09 - 6.1
2003 10 - 6.0
2003 11 - 5.9
2003 12 - 5.7
2004 01 - 5.6
2004 02 - 5.6
It looks like it moving to me. And it's moving down.
Guess that's true. However, what about the 21,000 new jobs in February? And if you subtract the ammount of goverment jobs from that number you get ZERO! This is also something Bush has been critisized for.
Edit: spelling etc
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Thu Mar 11, 2004 7:58 am |
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OctarineDragon
Head Merchant
Joined: 28 Nov 2003
Posts: 57
Location: The Void |
quote:
Originally posted by xSamhainx
quote:
Actually I believe I should be entitled to vote even though I'm not American. But, after all, every U.S. administration in the past 60 years has regarded to be their job to make the rest of the world do as they thought it should (succeeding only partly at it as long as there was another superpower), it would only be democratically sound if we get a say in who's to be the next guy bullying us around.
Oh man, that is classic. Just be thankful we are benevolent tyrants 
The security of the free world left up to the submissive, there would probably be a hammer and sickle over your capitol, pardner.
Or a star and crescent... 
Yeah, right - who are you calling submissive, and on what grounds, living in a country where the majority of the people apparently would do anything their gov't asks of them? 
Anyway, it appears you are having trouble distinguishing between governments and citizens... |
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Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:04 am |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
I am reminded of a scene from a Patrick O’Brien novel .. no I can not remember which one, but it was one of the earlier ones:
Captain Jack Aubry, Steven, and some others are having dinner in Jack's cabin. As usual the seamen have knocked their biscuits on the table to rid them of weevils ... or boatmen. Jack notices two weevils on the table and turns to Steven and asks, "Steven, which of these two would you choose?"
Steven looks at them and after a small monologue chooses the bigger of the two as being more robust.
Jack then burst out laugh, with something along the lines of "You didn't smoke it then? In the Navy we always choose the lesser of two weevils" He then, of course breaks into uncontrollable laughter.
This is how I view the up comming election. However, I find Kerry reminds me too much of too many politicians whose only goal is to get elected. I can not get a 'read' on him as a person or what he personally believes in. This scares the pants off me and makes him a Jumbo Weevil.
Mr Bush on the other paw is a known entitiy, and I have a pretty good idea of what the World According to Bush looks like ... not that I agree with 47.2% of it, but at least I know where he stands - in most cases.
So, given the two choices here, I would cast my lot with Bush as being the smaller weevil.
Dang, but I wish Clint (Eastwood) would run for Prexy *grin*
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=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Just plain clueless= |
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Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:32 pm |
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Bartacus
Il Buono
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 4706
Location: Belgium Flemmish part |
quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
quote:
Originally posted by Bartacus
AND DO YOU THINK IT'S OK TO KILL PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY AREN'T AMERICANS? The movie made that clear. If you think Rules of Engagement is the right way, I'l have no respect for you NOT AT ALL!
Of course I believe in the rules of engagement. Having rules of engagement is 100% better than having no rules at all. For different deployments while I was an Infantryman in the 82nd Airborne I was issued and followed ROE's. And they all (no matter what NATO, or UN country I was deployed with they all have them) say that if someone is shooting at me, or attempting to take my life I can kill them.
Sam Jackson didn't have to give an order to open fire. As soon as his men took fire they had a human right to defend themselves accourding to NATO and the UN.
I do not believe it is OK to kill people based on their nation of birth or nation of occupation. You are the one that said Sam Jackson killed people when he in fact defended himslef and his men. To think that a US soldier should take hostile fire without returning it is rediculous. Again I ask you what he did wrong? And why was it wrong? Would you have had him let more of his men die and do nothing? Do you expect soldiers of any country's army to stand there with a smile on their face while people are shooting at them? If you shoot at someone with a rifle in their hands, expect to be shot back at.
ROE protects civilians and non-combatants. It protects enemy soldiers or militans that surrender. And it protects the soldiers that go and do what their countries tell them too.
If rules of engagement is not the right way, then what is?
They didn't just return fire(I'm for the right of selfdefence), they kept firing until this citizens, not military, were all death. As a military person you choose to have the oppurtunity to face death in combat, those citizens didn't. As long as there are people who think like you Roqua, there will be wars. You, and others here too, think Americans have a certain responsibillity to 'rule' the world, to make it a better place.
I for one do believe this is an utopic idea. You start from the idea that all humans think the same as us western countries. You say that democracy is the highest virtue, I say that this is overrated. For some countries a dictator might prove more stabil then a democracy ever could accomplish. I'm not saying I want it in my country, nor in America, but it gives you sth to think about.
Our countries have difficulties with the leadership too, btw. I recall sth about your last elections. Bush got less votes then Gore, but because of a very undemocratic rule(some votes seem to count less in some states//and the not direct election, but votes for another) he won. Now I for one don't consider this like a country should be run. It sounds almost like Belgian politics.(Flemmish->Dutch speaking people are the majority, but the French speaking politicians rule Belgium)
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Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:21 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
quote:
Originally posted by Bartacus
[ You say that democracy is the highest virtue, I say that this is overrated. For some countries a dictator might prove more stabil then a democracy ever could accomplish. I'm not saying I want it in my country, nor in America, but it gives you sth to think about.
So, in exchange for sacrificing the freedom of speech and politics (democrazy for me), you want to accept some countries to have killing and imprisson of political and religeous minorities (Dictatorship for me) because they are more stabil in that way?
Stabil in what way, and for whom? Was Iraq a stabil country before the invasion of US? Is N. Korea, Zimbabwe, Syria, Libya, China, Saudi Arabia among many others?
I'm not saying that attacking the Iraq was the best way of disposing of the dictatorship, but the UN way was certainly not better, the trade embargo did certainly mostly heard the common Iraq citizen, and not the intended dictator, and maybe we hoped that after 10 years or more??? the Iraque people would throw Sadam of the bench them self, but that was not even close to happen.
Okay the easiest thing is to sit back and be "peacefull" and let Iraq solve their own problem, we don't need to watch the many 100.000's of graves of killed Iraques who didn't fit into Sadam's regime, we can close our TV, and sit calmly 1000's of miles away. It's their land and their problem!?
But was war the only/best way??? And how many other countries is actually in the same position as Iraq was before the war? How about them? These last two questions, do not speak for the war solution on their own, unless some people believe these other countries will get the message from the war with Iraq, and start obay "human rights", and open doors for more democracy on their own?
But anyway, I still think is would have been better to have a more united decision (UN) about what ever means should have been taken against Iraq, but I'm not blind for that UN with it's many countries and interest also is very action paralysed especially with this privileged "veto" for the big countries only.
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Thu Mar 11, 2004 4:07 pm |
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