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Oric
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Zamek Malbork |
Oblivion has GREAT marketing... think back in the last 3-4 months before oblivion came out, they gave so many interviews, previews, and so many repeated interviewes, and so on. This definately increased hype!!!
But anyway, I was going to say:
These reviews that are all coming out now, saying 95& etc, its just another form of marketing i think...Bethesda must have paid other websites to give them good reviews and ratings, because (as i mentioned in a previous thread), at the elder scrolls forums, they are all quite dissapointed with Oblivion.
What does everyone think about this?
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Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:48 am |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
I think the strange thing about those early top rating reviews is not the top rating but the earliness.
I don't think it is possible to play the game enough and write a review in the time they had since release.
Frankly, I believe that Oblivion will get very high ratings and that it deservers it. I suppose most of it will be over 90% and even 95%, 97% and such wont be rare.
Anyway, they did a good marketing job. And I'm glad they did it. RPGs badly need more marketing and hype games (that will be really RPGs). |
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Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:16 am |
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Oric
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Zamek Malbork |
quote:
Originally posted by Danicek
I think the strange thing about those early top rating reviews is not the top rating but the earliness.
I don't think it is possible to play the game enough and write a review in the time they had since release.
Frankly, I believe that Oblivion will get very high ratings and that it deservers it. I suppose most of it will be over 90% and even 95%, 97% and such wont be rare.
Anyway, they did a good marketing job. And I'm glad they did it. RPGs badly need more marketing and hype games (that will be really RPGs).
True, without a doubt oblivions marketing is excellent!, much better than Gothics, even though Gothic will probably be the better game.
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Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:28 am |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
quote:
Originally posted by Oric
True, without a doubt oblivions marketing is excellent!, much better than Gothics, even though Gothic will probably be the better game.
Gothic would definitely deserve better marketing. That was what I meant. Good RPG games need very good marketing to make it to relativelly high sales. |
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Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:32 am |
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XmirroR
Village Leader
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 89
Location: South CA USA |
NOT looking to start an arguement.
Bethesda ( AND I hope they are their own company to some degree ) is owned by Take2, If you review Take2's publications to development you will quickly understand that they are not developers. Certainly not recently.
Take2 managed a multi million dollar advertising campaign for free, advertising via the american news media with the "Hot Coffee" scandal. While they are still in litigation, and determining the final costs that will be assesed for the error is still to be determined, YOU CAN'T BUY 6PM NEWS ADVERTISING NATION WIDE IN AMERICA FOR LESS THAN THE MAX FINE for being a "Hot Coffee"-pervert.
And seriously dont think that the 6PM news cycle is done with the "Hot Coffee" marathon, There could yet be more.
If Oblivion doesn't spark a similar ( you can't actually find it without inside knowledge ) trama event, personally I'll be surprised.
And I dont think for a second that the advertising firms hired by Take2 dont want to prove themselves to a company that dodged the "Hot Coffee" experience. As Such those companies are willing to take on anything, as such... They can effectively promise the Moon, and then challenge your ability to define the "moon". Conceptually you didn't get the moon, but I can prove you are an idiot for expecting the moon, simply because you can't define it yourself. And therefore the production company is not guilty.
Personally I hafta let it go... I cant change things...
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Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:49 am |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
Well, I think that maybe for one thing, game sites get sent the game way before we do. From special preview build gameplay sessions to the actual product itself being sent to them early, they are seeing the game and forming opinions long before us.
For another, it is literally someone's job to sit there and play the game for what 10-15 hours? They probably have a few diff people playing, like people taking turns driving on a long trip, making notes. We play at our own pace, with our own family/self limits as to what can feasibly be done. Theyre all under pressure trying to be the first ones to have "the info" first on the title of the year.
I dont know, maybe Im completely wrong and the reviewers all a bunch of paid shills. But I know that from my personal experience with the title, sure there are a few things that royally piss me off about it, but overall, I like it. The longer I play it, the more it grows on me, and makes me want to see it thru til the end.
The anecdotal evidence of screaming meemies on a forum can mean it's a bunch of spoiled brats that want to flog to death a few things that didnt turn out the way they wanted, or it very well could be justified gamer outrage over the murder of one of their holy grails. That remains to be seen, only time will tell.
While it's suspicious for a game review site to have such timely and prescient opinions on a newly released title so soon, on the other side, it also looks a bit weird for a bunch of peeps on a message board to also have theirs after what, 2 days? People dont like change, and a new cd might take a few listens before you like it.
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Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:18 pm |
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Oric
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Zamek Malbork |
All in all, Oblivion is just a temporary solution until Gothic3 comes out!!!
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Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:44 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by xSamhainx
Well, I think that maybe for one thing, game sites get sent the game way before we do. From special preview build gameplay sessions to the actual product itself being sent to them early, they are seeing the game and forming opinions long before us.
Only hand-picked reviewers got the game 2 weeks before release. They are either (a) so important that they cannot be refused if they request an early gold copy (print mags, Gamespot, the ca. 3 biggest sites per market, etc. ) or (b) have developed excellent relationships with Bethesda and/or Take2. The groups are not mutually exclusive.
ad (b): I wouldnīt exactly trust their reviews.
ad (a): Itīs still unclear how much time they spent (or can spend!) on the game.
Itīs nonsense anybody "paid" for the reviews, though. The risk would be too high.
Oblivion probably is a great game, but the early reviews are so uncritical that the contrast to the complaints in the forums is blatant. What about the interface of the PC version suffering under heavy consilitis, as Dhruin described in his first impressions? Missing tool tips, non-scaling & unintuitive interface? Terrible German on-screen text translation? Ugly character faces, clearly visible distance-LoD changes, popping up of trees?
I donīt know how significant these issues are, but I want to see them mentioned in the reviews.
This will get better in a few weeks.
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Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:39 pm |
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Zakhal
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 188
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I recall atleast one review that complained about the interface, allthough they all gave great scores. The people on the elder forum were clearly hyped. After they got the game, they (mostly PC customers) felt that beth pulled a fast one on them, and in a very short time they went from hype to feeling a bit betrayed. That always leads to anger.
Older gamers have been in that situation many times before so stuff like that doesnt usually happen to them. Elder boards though have lots young people so the outcome is not supprising.
Without the hype I doubt there would have been such a mess on the forums. Fault goes to false&outdone marketing. That includes the almost godlike reviews and lack of information about the new UI.
If company makes big changes on somthing old, they should tell both the good and bad to their customers. Beth told us only the good. They knew the UI was not good for PC, but still kept the information to themselves to upkeep the hype. |
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Thu Mar 23, 2006 6:55 pm |
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spritex
Village Dweller
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 18
Location: Helsinki, Finland |
I also don't understand many of the review sites. For example on
Gamespot:
Morrowind. 8.7
Gothic II 8.1
Gothic I 7.2 (!)
IGN:
Morrowind 9.4
Gothic II 8.0 (!)
Gothic I 8.6
Do I have so different taste and sense of atmosphere than the reviewers? I found Morrowind just plain boring. I did order Oblivion in the hope that it will be more fleshed out than Morrowind was. Which it in some ways will be from what I read but I am still not too sure about the game mechanics and the immersion. (I'll get it next week.) |
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Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:06 pm |
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X-dANGEr
Unknown Destiny
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 2383
Location: The X place |
I think it's all about marketing. A well marketed game will get more attention by the reviwer-ers.. And they will try to find more good than bad.
quote:
Originally posted by Zakhal
I recall atleast one review that complained about the interface, allthough they all gave great scores.
I think most reviews were about the X-Box version, not the PC one..
Edit: And if a game like Gothic gets such a marketing, am sure a record can be broken in terms of sales..
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Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:24 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by spritex
I also don't understand many of the review sites. For example on
Gamespot:
Morrowind. 8.7
Gothic II 8.1
Gothic I 7.2 (!)
IGN:
Morrowind 9.4
Gothic II 8.0 (!)
Gothic I 8.6
Do I have so different taste and sense of atmosphere than the reviewers? I found Morrowind just plain boring. I did order Oblivion in the hope that it will be more fleshed out than Morrowind was. Which it in some ways will be from what I read but I am still not too sure about the game mechanics and the immersion. (I'll get it next week.)
Well...to be honest - it's you.  I personally agree with you - I didn't enjoy Morrowind...but looking at Gamerankings, I see the User score for Morrowind is 8.8, while the User scores for both Gothics is 7.7. So, on the whole, the average player liked MW more than Gothic. You also can't ignore that MW sold ~4 million copies, while I think it's safe so say the Gothics have not.
In that sense, those reviewers reflect the mainstream more accurately than you do - and since they are broad-based sites, you'd have to say they did their job.
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Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:40 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
...but looking at Gamerankings, I see the User score for Morrowind is 8.8, while the User scores for both Gothics is 7.7
I don't think that the "user score" is any indication really. The Elder Scrolls community is one of the very vocal communities out there (similar to the BioWare fans who are regularly encouraged by BioWare community reps to participate in all sorts of votings).
I think it would be quite interesting and revealing if Gamerankings would provide info about their referrals .
Plus, the "Top 100" here on RPGDot is living proof that the Elder Scrolls fans do support their beloved franchise quite well.
quote:
So, on the whole, the average player liked MW more than Gothic. You also can't ignore that MW sold ~4 million copies, while I think it's safe so say the Gothics have not.
True. The Gothics are far, far, far away from being as successful as MW ever was.
However, I don't think that it is right to say that the "average player" liked MW more than Gothic. I very much doubt that the "average player" has ever even heard of Gamerankings. The average player does not visit forums either.
As I said, I believe that the ranking is the result of a community effort and completely lacking any form of objectivity due to the way that polls on the Internet work.
As a general comment on the reviews, well, editors of the sites that were mentioned above can probably call Bethesda's Pete Hines at 4:00AM for an interview and Pete would be more than happy to answer all their questions  .
Bethesda has always been doing very professional PR work and I'm sure that these pleasant and productive editor vs PR relationships have definitely not hurt MW's scores .
On the other hand, if you look at Gothic, the first major problem is that GameSpot, IGN/GameSpy are US-based and are likely to consider Euro games as crap before the install process has even begun .
Secondly, there is the PR barrier, of course. The Gothics have not been supported very well in the US (to put it mildly).
I'm sure that the editors of GameSpy/IGN and GameSpot are aiming for objectivity but it's still probably infinitely easier to give Gothic an average rating than MW if you -as the editor of GameSpot or GameSpy/IGN- get to know and interact with 'famous' people from the company (Pete Hines, Todd Howard come to mind), have met them at events (like E3), have been invited to their offices for exclusive play sessions etc etc.
Gothic hasn't had any of that support in the US but only here "at home" in Germany (where both Gothics scored numerous awards and ratings very similar to what Morrowind got in the US).
In short, I don't think that the difference in scores has anything to do with the quality of either game but more with the circumstances. In fact, there is no difference in scores if you only look at the scores each game got in its own home market.
Finally, let's not forget about the difference in release dates. I don't remember when Gothic was released in the US but if it was post-Morrowind, then I can see how Gothic might not totally blow your socks off.
This was completely different in Germany where Gothic was released in March 2001.
While Bethesda and Gas Powered Games (Dungeon Siege came out roughly around the same time as MW in March/April 2002) were still giving interviews about how their games were gonna be oh-so pretty and epic and how they'd have a seamless gameworld etc etc, German players were already experiencing just that... and finishing Gothic for the 3rd time+.
Gothic I was visually and gameplay-wise absolutely revolutionary when it *first* came out in Germany.
It's only natural that it did not have that much of an impact in the US due to the much later release. |
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:36 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
Just to be clear, I wasn't intending to comment on quality - I like the Gothics far, far, better than Morrowind. I also take all of your other points, even if I don't think Gamerankings is quite as skewed as you (by the way, I don't actually like Gamerankings but it's the best way I can think of to guage the "average" opinion).
I also accept that voters on Gamerankings don't necessarily reflect the true average of gamers at the local mall - fair enough.
Let me come at it from a slightly different perspective.  Let's leave Gothic's sales at the side, because obviously its potential has been seriously damaged by delays, poor marketing etc etc.
But...Morrowind alone still sold 4M copies, so a whole truckload of people bought it. That makes it almost as successful as both BG + BG2 put together and more successful than KotOR + KotOR2 or NWN + expansions. In fact, I don't know a single more successful singleplayer RPG. It's possible 4M people bought it and they all hated it...but I doubt it.
So, when spritex says Morrowind was "just plain boring" (and I agree) we are going against the grain of the most successful RPG ever (?) from a sales perspective. Does it not seem reasonable that such a title might get good reviews? And that we just don't represent the most common view?
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:59 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
So, when spritex says Morrowind was "just plain boring" (and I agree) we are going against the grain of the most successful RPG ever (?) from a sales perspective. Does it not seem reasonable that such a title might get good reviews? And that we just don't represent the most common view?
Valid thought, Dhruin, but the 3 of us are right. MW is "just plain boring" in spite of truly being a milestone in the genre.
On the other hand, I haven't had much luck getting into Gothic either, so maybe I'm just weird. 
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:19 am |
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