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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Ahhh.... so you want to side step 30 years of fantasy gaming. Good luck. 
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
Tue May 21, 2002 2:24 pm |
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Rado
Village Dweller
Joined: 21 May 2002
Posts: 7
Location: Dubai, UAE |
Wow... power gamer...Kill kill kill gold gold gold... Probably with this way of thinking You can still jump on the trees. Who says that I am working over fantasy project ?
Thank's for good wishes- I'll need a lot of luck |
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Wed May 22, 2002 5:59 am |
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Hexmaster
Noble Knight
Joined: 17 Jan 2002
Posts: 206
Location: Bristol, England |
For me, the gaming world itself has to be top of my list.
It has to grab you from the outset so that you feel part of it.
I also think that world variation is important for me anyway. To go into different environments and have different surroundings, towns that do not look the same as the last one you visited.
NPC's that have lives of their own and don't just wait around in the same place.
I enjoyed POR2 for a while but the visual surroundings were very samey.
Music can be done very well. I just love the BG & IWD music. When I boot them up the intro music gets me ready..( I even start humming it in the car sometimes...sad).
Relating to your character(s) is also crucial. You have to care about them as part of the experience of the game.
Storyline, whether linear or not must be fulfilling. Some games get slated for being too linear but I think that within reason, most gamers need an overall target to go for.
Roll on the 31/5/02 because then I can get Morrowind here in England. Trouble is I will have to play it in between the world cup games.
Good luck to you guys from participating countries.
Regards,
Hexmaster
_________________
If the universe is everything, what is it expanding into ??!! |
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Wed May 22, 2002 7:04 am |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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quote:
Originally posted by Rado
Wow... power gamer...Kill kill kill gold gold gold... Probably with this way of thinking You can still jump on the trees. Who says that I am working over fantasy project ?
Thank's for good wishes- I'll need a lot of luck
Have you read my editorial?
http://www.rpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=317
I normally don't believe in shameless plugging but it addresses exactly the kind of thing you're trying to do.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Wed May 22, 2002 12:28 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
@ EverythingXen - Good article
I would address the added spice that the threat of death to your character brings. This is also a good reason have combat. |
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Wed May 22, 2002 12:50 pm |
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Rado
Village Dweller
Joined: 21 May 2002
Posts: 7
Location: Dubai, UAE |
Great article. Hat down and...please, accept appologies.
I am member of Mutant Chronicles design team. We have implemented some mechanisms preventing players from turning entire game into Quake (not preventing from fight at all ). Now we are considering pro and contra for implementing AI enemies (common "cannon food")- that's how idea of creating roleplaying environment rather then traditional world appeared. Of course You will get all the gulids and corporations systems fighting each other- and fight as such will be important-but not main- part of a game. Do You think it is wrong solution ? |
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Wed May 22, 2002 2:12 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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A game developer has to cater to as many player types as possible. If you have a strong system of advancement that doesn't require combat as well as non-combat solutions to problems within the game you'll make the story-driven explorer type of player happy.
A dedicated player can turn anything into Quake, no matter how noble your intentions.
It's a matter of balance. Morrowind was SO CLOSE but then turns out to favor the non-combat explorers for enjoyment purposes in a surprise twist as anyone who turns Morrowind into Quake will find out that combat is very easy.
That's where the biggest challenge lies. A person who wants to concentrate on his non-combat skills should have a way through the game. That's not hard to implement. A person who wants to blast his way through the game should be able to... that's REALLY easy.
But what about the person who wants to focus mainly on story but does like to fight every once in a while? How do you get it balanced so he can compete against creatures that tax the combat heavy characters to their maximum without making the creature so weak that the combat character gets bored or is unchallenged? How about the person who loves his combat but wants to dabble in a few skills... how do you balance it so that he can do a few things... enough to remain interested in the non-combat aspect of the game... without taking away the non-combat path's only advantage?
This becomes especially important when you introduce multi-player.
I don't envy game developers in the slightest.
Without 'cannon fodder' most CRPGs become action-adventure games because a lot of people like their cannon fodder.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Wed May 22, 2002 2:52 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
I'm certainly no expert, but it seems that the key is rewarding the player for "appropriate" activities. If, as a dev, you want players to seek non-aggressive solutions, then you need to give "experience points / skill points / levels" to reward such activities. That might prove impossible to code, but maybe not. For example, your player is a member of the assassin guild and gets a contract. The "Quake" player hacks thru 20 guards, kills the mark, and wipes his sword on the draperies. He accumulates 25 XP for the action (1 per dead guard and 5 for the boss). The "Thief 2" player sneaks past the guards, drugs the boss, and brings him back for questioning. He gets 60XP for the job (2 per guard, 10 for the boss, and 10 bonus for no fatalities). RPG players seem to usually go out of their way to get as much experience as possible. Likewise, you haven't eliminated revenue from the Quake crowd, since they still play the game and still advance their character. I think Deus Ex might have been closest to what I'm describing. You got experience for mission goals, but not for kills. How you got the job done was largely up to the player. If you wish to push the player further in a certain direction, adding bonuses for that behaviour would improve the Deus Ex model.
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Wed May 22, 2002 6:46 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
I have never played Deus Ex, and so may be missing the point, but I don't think a game can reward proper non violent behavior, and the logic goes something like:
It is very costly – if not impossible - to program good scripts to handle every circumstance. Example:
Goal: Get a new bishop.
Approach 1: Kill the old one – easy to script an AI routine.
Approach 2: Get thugs from two towns away to rough him up, and threaten his life if he doesn't step down – slightly harder to script.
Approach 3: Ruin the old one’s reputation, start a rumor campaign, involving jokes told a local taverns etc, imputing that he molests little kids. Much harder to script into world.
Approach 4: Get influence with major parishioners, convince * them * bishop needs replacing, and they gently ask him to step down. Also very hard.
Approach 5: Join the church and ruin him from inside the church’s organization.
Approach 6: Offer the church a * huge * donation, but only if the right bishop holds the office.
Approach 7: Conjure a succubus to lead him astray, * then * take approach 3, 4 or 5.
Approach 8: Bribe the old bishop into retiring.
etc.
To truly reward creative thinking the game world would have to account for an infinite number of clever sol’ns to a problem. My list above is very short and I was * not * very imaginative.
And that is the problem to date with most games that try to reward creative thinking. 99% of the good ideas you can come up with are “non allowed” events. This immediately helps to stifle creativity, and forces the non violent player into thinking “What were the designers thinking of when they scripted this?” with out the player even being aware of it.
Even in the violent options there are limits. I love the idea of hiring thugs to "rough some one up" as a way to add spice to a game ... heck, the player could disguise him/her self and be one of the thugs. But that is a violent option almost never offered.
So bonuses can be offered, but the plans, and some of them good ones ... much better than the designers could've forseen ... will not be able to be implemented - instant frustration.
Sorry for the rant  |
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Wed May 22, 2002 7:17 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
Lintra, you should try Deus Ex then.
My character was a sneaker and hacker who managed to get through the game armed with mainly a taser and pepper spray. Okay, there was combat, but in most cases I could choose to make it non-lethal.
My friend's character blasted his way through the game with a rocket launcher and succeeded as well... plus you had three different endings.
Just try it.
_________________
Jaz |
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Wed May 22, 2002 8:25 pm |
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Yog Sothoth
The All in One
Joined: 01 May 2002
Posts: 1086
Location: Between Space and Time |
quote:
Originally posted by Jaz
Lintra, you should try Deus Ex then.
My character was a sneaker and hacker who managed to get through the game armed with mainly a taser and pepper spray. Okay, there was combat, but in most cases I could choose to make it non-lethal.
My friend's character blasted his way through the game with a rocket launcher and succeeded as well... plus you had three different endings.
Just try it.
I agree, Deus Ex is formidable! but i found that at the end it's too difficoult to sneak and avoid killing... (maybe it's me...  ) 
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Wed May 22, 2002 9:31 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
Allow me to clarify a little. Again, I'm not a programmer, but I did have to take FORTRAN in college.
If bishop = gone then quest complete, XP=100
If bishop = dead then XP=XP+10
If guard = dead then XP=XP+1
if guard = alive then XP=XP+2
If (bishop = alive) and (location = hideout) then XP=XP+50
If draperies = bloody then XP=XP+5
And so forth for whatever behavior you wish to reward. The player is not forced into any specific action. Once the quest criteria are met, you tally up the score and give the player the reward. If the player has done the things you wish to favor, the reward will be bigger. If not, then your "Quaker" will have to kill a whole lot more critters to get the same amount of reward as the creative player.
I certainly agree that a more open-ended game will have more complex coding. For the dev to anticipate everything a player will attempt is impossible, particularly since some players seem to delight in "breaking" a game. But if the dev ignores a wide range of actions (as far as rewards), the problem should become manageable. This is not to say that those actions will be impossible, just that they won't get you extra XP. The player may get a little frustrated that he/she didn't get uber-rewards for some Rube-Goldberg-esque solution, but I think that player will be disappointed in every game out there other than "The Incredible Machine".
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Thu May 23, 2002 4:04 am |
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Rado
Village Dweller
Joined: 21 May 2002
Posts: 7
Location: Dubai, UAE |
My intention is not to REMOVE aggresive behaviours- they are part of life and part of game world as well. To explain... Imagine megacity (something like in "Blade Runner" or "Judge Dread") You have slums at the bottom and richest areas at the top. At the lowest levels violence is common and uncontrolled- to survive You MUST be ready to fight. At the topmost levels each corner of the street is guarded by computer controlled heavy weapon pods, no heavy weaponry allowed... Of course most profitable oportunities will happen in rich areas. Plus- if You are weak- do not go to severs, if You want to kill someone- make him going out from his fortress... This is one from solutions- seems reasonable to You ? |
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Thu May 23, 2002 6:24 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
Seems to me that you'd want to start your player in the middle. From there, I'd probably take a M&M7 approach. You'll have the first 1/2 of your quests work the middle ground and then have the player make a choice between ruling the penthouse and ruling the gutter. Any player could make any choice, but gunners will be more likely to succeed down below while sneaks will have an easier time upstairs. Politians will be able to go anywhere but won't be very good at direct action. Players wanting a challenge will go against the grain. You give the player added replay since there's a definite branch in the storyline. Since it seems that (particularly on the penthouse storyline) many quests will require non-violent solutions, you'd probably have an easier time giving experience/skills/levels based on goal achievement rather than specific task performance (ala killing).
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Thu May 23, 2002 7:33 am |
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Rado
Village Dweller
Joined: 21 May 2002
Posts: 7
Location: Dubai, UAE |
Yes, almost like that- but without quests. There are no quests as such- You can ask other players for something IF you have something for them in exchange (or if You know way how to force them to do certain things). Example ? You are casino owner , selling alcochol (which is legal) and drugs (which are not SO legal). Now- one can blackmail You ("I'll inform police if You will not...- of course players playing cops will be more than happy to get such info and earn exp.points- so probably they will set up their own fee, in addition "loyal" citizen will get slight characteristic increase). You have two choices- run away, pay or try tohire someone to "fix" this problem (as You are probably unable to do it). Everyone has strong motivation- police, Your blackmailer, Your "guns" and You... reasonable ? |
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Thu May 23, 2002 7:52 am |
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