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niteshade
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 100
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It's definetely true that the line between RPG and non RPG has blurred alot in recent days. Many games contain RPG elements without being defined as RPG games. Where to draw the line on these things becomes a bit fuzzy.
Freedom and playing a role are very broad things. Games like Grand Theft Auto often give you massive amounts of freedom, often more then even the old classics like Wasteland and similar games. Some also have stats and character development. But few would consider them to be RPGs.
If you rule out games with limited character creation you rule out some really classic RPGs like Planescape which had more character development then creation. Often a versatile character creation system can mean that the story is not well developed enough for it to be greatly effected by who you really are. This is certainly not a good RPG thing. This is where we just get into different opinions about things. For some being able to create your character is imporant, for some story, combat, or development are more important.
It certainly is helpful to have a definition of what a RPG is, and the gaming industry does in fact have one which is what all the industry insiders, gaming magazines, and company executives use. The article explains what the definition is, and that's the closest thing we have to anything official. It's not a perfect definition by any means, but most of the time it works. |
Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:20 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
I'm saying if non rpgs have more traditional rpg elements t5han most games labelled as rpgs, something is wrong and the genre is dilluted beyond and way to classify it and define it.
That something might be wrong with the genre is a different argument - one I would have sympathy with.
quote:
Whats your definition of an rpg Dhruin?
Hmm..I'm going to get caught out here. I've never sat down and formulated a formal definition and doing one on the fly at work is going to catch me with my pants down...but here goes... 
"A game where the primary gameplay focus is controlling a specific character (or small group of characters known as a party) that has attributes and skills that define the perfomance of that character in the gameworld and that develop/improve throughout the game".
Not very smooth language but it will do for now.
- Any game that developer says it is?
No
- Is Paper Mario RPG an RPG? Why not? It has rpg in its title?
No idea, sorry. Don't have a console and don't know anything about it
- Is that wrestling game an rpg?
No idea
- Is wc3? IS Republic the revolution (which had character creation, development, many, many, choices, and lots of freedom and multiple paths to the ending)?
Don't know a lot about it but I don't think development of a specific character[s] is the focus
- Is the ufo's and x-coms rpgs? Is silent storm?
Getting closer but I don't think the focus is on developing a specific character[s]
That will do - you get the idea of my position - but I reserve the right to say I rushed my post at work and stuffed up!
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Tue Jul 12, 2005 5:36 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
quote:
Originally posted by niteshade
It's definetely true that the line between RPG and non RPG has blurred alot in recent days. Many games contain RPG elements without being defined as RPG games. Where to draw the line on these things becomes a bit fuzzy.
Freedom and playing a role are very broad things. Games like Grand Theft Auto often give you massive amounts of freedom, often more then even the old classics like Wasteland and similar games. Some also have stats and character development. But few would consider them to be RPGs.
If you rule out games with limited character creation you rule out some really classic RPGs like Planescape which had more character development then creation. Often a versatile character creation system can mean that the story is not well developed enough for it to be greatly effected by who you really are. This is certainly not a good RPG thing. This is where we just get into different opinions about things. For some being able to create your character is imporant, for some story, combat, or development are more important.
It certainly is helpful to have a definition of what a RPG is, and the gaming industry does in fact have one which is what all the industry insiders, gaming magazines, and company executives use. The article explains what the definition is, and that's the closest thing we have to anything official. It's not a perfect definition by any means, but most of the time it works.
Any chance of sharing the definition? (And good comentary also)
Dhruin,
I definitly hear what your saying and understand, but the wrestling game, GTA:SAN andreas, and many other games are centered around character building.
I would say SS is a lot more focused on character building than PS:T. In PS:T once you get past picking your class, character building takes a back seat and the story and story progression and development is what the game is about.
I would really would love to get into this deeper but I'm posting while packing to move. I have about 5 thousand more points to make, and will maqke them once my tyrrant wife gives me a good enough break.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Tue Jul 12, 2005 6:21 am |
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PraetorJudis
Village Leader
Joined: 05 Sep 2001
Posts: 78
Location: MotherShip 2c457z |
Some time ago I sat down and came up with a nine point measuring stick to determine whether a game can be considered an RPG. The exploration and defense for each of these rules takes up several blog posts, but the result was the following:
Rule 1: DRPGs present the player with a tabula rasa as their avatar in the world.
Rule 2: DRPGs allow some measure of character customization at the outset of the game.
Rule 3: DRPGs feature optional quests that effect the world state.
Rule 4: DRPGs feature inventories with equipable, transferable, and unessential items.
Rule 5: DRPGs allow for player guided increases in innate abilities and skills throughout gameplay.
Rule 6: DRPGs guide the player as subtly as possible, allowing as much freedom to explore the world as possible.
Rule 7: DRPGs allow the player some measure of choice as to their actions and/or behaviors.
Rule 8: DRPGs feature NPCs that are responsive to the players actions.
Rule 9: DRPGs must present a full world that is both logical and internally consistent.
I don't know that a game has to meet all nine criteria for me to be consider it a DRPG (which, incidently, is my acronym for digital role playing game), but it certainly should meet 5 or 6 of them. Feel free to tear these apart!
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Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:26 am |
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Priest4hire
Head Merchant
Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 52
Location: Slocan, BC |
One should consider what the purpose of a genre like CRPG is. It is just a loose grouping meant to aid in the predetermination of the qualities of a game. On the level of an individual game the genre is irrelevant; a game is what it is. It is only on a larger, more removed, scale that genre is handy for giving a sense of how a game will play and quickly sorting out the titles one might be interested in. Thus one does not need to examine all games in detail but just those belonging to a genre one likes.
That said the CRPG genre defies an easy definition, beyond character building and indirect stat based combat, because it's so diverse and mutated. I suppose it's a bit like Wild Cabbage. Starting out as a simple leafy green plant over time it was cultivated into all kinds of variates from modern cabbage to cauliflower, brussel sprouts, and broccoli. Now it's difficult to see just how brussel sprouts and cauliflower are from the same root plant but it is so. In an sense they are the same even though they are very different.
The CRPG genre has done the same with all kinds of branches and offshoots. Since role playing isn't possible in the genre all kinds of other devices, from story and characterization to multiple choices and dialog trees, have been introduced as replacements. Since there are so many alternatives that have cropped up, and since the genre is so loose anyways, there is a great deal of variety. Perhaps it would be better to break the genre down into sub-genres and define those. One can also simply determine the heritage of the game in question and if it's from an established line of CRPGs it's probably an CRPG of some kind.
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Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:21 pm |
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PraetorJudis
Village Leader
Joined: 05 Sep 2001
Posts: 78
Location: MotherShip 2c457z |
I think that's a good point, but... without criteria with which to examine individual games, the grouping designation becomes pretty meaningless. If you can't compare two games and determine which should be labeld an RPG and which shouldn't, than the category should be discarded.
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Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:58 pm |
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yeesh
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 113
Location: Unofficially representing Queens |
You're right, there needs to be a definition for the term to mean anything. And the definition that works, which so many people seem to be having trouble accepting, is:
A game is an RPG to the extent that it is focused on developing the power of your character(s).
See how simple that is? Now just take one lousy minute and actually consider it: Is there any game that you think of as an RPG that is not covered by this definition? If so, please bring it up.
No, most resistence seems to come from the other end, from the idea that there are games people do not consider RPGs that are covered. Roqua's oft-mentioned Republic: The Revolution does contain RPG elements, but is not an RPG because it's main focus is (I think, I haven't played it) strategy and/or political simulation. Warcraft III comes up a lot, and guess what folks? It did represent a bit of a departure from the old RTS formula specifically because it contained RPG elements; still that doesn't change the fact that at it's core it's an RTS. I don't know anything about Paper Mario, but unless you have a stat that helps you automatically jump over those little fireballs, it's probably primarily an action game, or platformer if you will.
Why is it easy to accept that Jagged Alliance has RPG elements but isn't an RPG, but these other games are a stumbling point? It's exactly the same concept. Games that include strengthening and developing your characters but have gameplay that is more strongly attributable to a different genre are said to be of that genre with RPG elements. I didn't make it up, but I certainly agree. The existence of such games does nothing to refute my definition of an RPG; which, coincidentally, is the same definition the gaming industry uses. You guys are the ones who want to explain to the Japanese that the entire console RPG genre doesn't really exist, and Square (Enix) has never made an RPG in it's history.
You can come along with your ideas about what makes a good RPG, and I'm probably going to agree with you. But as for what is the line that separates CRPGs from other genres; well, I just wrote it up there. |
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Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:49 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
quote:
Originally posted by yeesh
You're right, there needs to be a definition for the term to mean anything. And the definition that works, which so many people seem to be having trouble accepting, is:
A game is an RPG to the extent that it is focused on developing the power of your character(s).
See how simple that is? Now just take one lousy minute and actually consider it: Is there any game that you think of as an RPG that is not covered by this definition? If so, please bring it up.
No, most resistence seems to come from the other end, from the idea that there are games people do not consider RPGs that are covered. Roqua's oft-mentioned Republic: The Revolution does contain RPG elements, but is not an RPG because it's main focus is (I think, I haven't played it) strategy and/or political simulation. Warcraft III comes up a lot, and guess what folks? It did represent a bit of a departure from the old RTS formula specifically because it contained RPG elements; still that doesn't change the fact that at it's core it's an RTS. I don't know anything about Paper Mario, but unless you have a stat that helps you automatically jump over those little fireballs, it's probably primarily an action game, or platformer if you will.
Why is it easy to accept that Jagged Alliance has RPG elements but isn't an RPG, but these other games are a stumbling point? It's exactly the same concept. Games that include strengthening and developing your characters but have gameplay that is more strongly attributable to a different genre are said to be of that genre with RPG elements. I didn't make it up, but I certainly agree. The existence of such games does nothing to refute my definition of an RPG; which, coincidentally, is the same definition the gaming industry uses. You guys are the ones who want to explain to the Japanese that the entire console RPG genre doesn't really exist, and Square (Enix) has never made an RPG in it's history.
You can come along with your ideas about what makes a good RPG, and I'm probably going to agree with you. But as for what is the line that separates CRPGs from other genres; well, I just wrote it up there.
In the wrestling game, you create a character, wrestle, and improve the character's skill, wrestle some more, repeate. In GTO:San Andreas the character devlopment is a focus.
Your definition is flawled and includes numerous non-rpgs. Just think for a minute. Is character devlopment the focus in PS:T? Or many other story driven rpgs? It is mearly a side effect of playing and in some rpgs seems more like an after thought. And then enter Silent Storm, a game that is definitly not an rpg, but is more a character development centric game than most (and a great, great game).
And in Republic the Revolution character development is a focus, more so than most rpgs. Ultima 7 wasn't character devlopment focused. But many non-rpgs are.
As of today, I could break the rpg genre down into 7 or 8 completly different catagories, yet they all continue to be clumped into the genric rpg catagory, when only 2 catagorizations deserve the rpg title.
An rpg is an rpg is an rpg. Games with some traditional rpg aspects are not rpgs. Bottom line. Rpg stands for something. Even pen and paper is broken down into three different catagories of play style, but the core mechanics are still the same.
In every FPS gives the same playstyle. When you buy an fps you know what you are getting. If its good or not is up to opinion. Did the squad SW game get labblled as just an fps? No. Did System shock? No. They do that so people can understand better what they are buying. You guys want Gothic, ToEE, and Diablo to all be in the same genre when they are all completly different experiences and different genres. They are in no way, shape or form similar enough to be covered under the rpg catagory. Because an rpg is an rpg. Hybrids are hybrids, etc etc.
Rpg has as much meaning now as the catagory of game, its so diluded as to be meaningless. What it should imply it doesn't.
I'm not saying rpgdot should stop covering games like Pirates! and Joan of Arc and Hellgate London, I'm saying for the sack of sanity lets start properlly labelling things to reflect what they are instead of picking and choosing what fits where on criteria that can be expanded to include so many games that any game could be an rpg and rpg means absolutly nothing.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:16 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
I meant to say "good luck with your move!" but must have forgotten to hit Submit or something. So, good luck!
Briefly on the categorisation - this issue always exists, even though it might be easier to classify some genres than others. What, then, is Gothic? An Action-Adventure? It's nothing like Beyond Good and Evil and neither of them are like Sam & Max, so they surely shouldn't share the "Adventure" classification. On the other hand, they can't just be action games because Diablo is an action game and Gothic and Diablo are not alike.
So. What is Gothic, Diablo and ToEE. Each of them. Specifically.
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:40 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
All of them are good games in some way.
Gothic is an action game with rpg elements.
Diablo is a hack n' slash.
ToEE is an rpg.
Thanks for saying good luck with the move, but my wife is insane so it isn't going smoothly. For instance, we got lamp boxes that are mostly empty that we could fill with stuff becuase the lamps are skinny and small, and the cost of the pod we have is figured by space used. But she doesn't want them filled with anything else. She likes to waste space, and in turn waste money. And she can stop and watch stupid girl shows on tv but if I want to "check my e-mail" (check rpgdot) I can't and we have too much to do. Sorry for venting.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:34 pm |
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yeesh
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 113
Location: Unofficially representing Queens |
quote:
In the wrestling game, you create a character, wrestle, and improve the character's skill, wrestle some more, repeate. In GTO:San Andreas the character devlopment is a focus.
Look, you're calling it the wrestling game, so I'm just going to assume it's focus is on wrestling, not character building. If your character gains experience and raises his stats, then it's a wrestling game with RPG elements. If it were a wrestling game RPG (which certainly could exist), then the wrestling matches would have to be more stat-based than action-based, and the focus of the gameplay would have to be on the development of your character's abilities, as opposed to on the development of your personal action gaming skills.
I haven't played San Andreas, but if it's like GTA: Vice City, then your character is exactly as weak at the end of the game as he is at the beginning. There is one type of armor that you can pick up anywhere, and while there are several guns, all are easily obtainable. You could attain max character power within 15 minutes of starting the game. Therefor, attaining character power is not the focus of the GTA games. Isn't that clear?
quote:
Your definition is flawled and includes numerous non-rpgs. Just think for a minute. Is character devlopment the focus in PS:T? Or many other story driven rpgs? It is mearly a side effect of playing and in some rpgs seems more like an after thought. And then enter Silent Storm, a game that is definitly not an rpg, but is more a character development centric game than most (and a great, great game).
Yes character development is the focus in PS:T, at least as far as rewards are concerned. The entire game is just an awesome story and building up your character by fighting stuff. When you succeed at overcoming challenges, your party is rewarded with experience and equipment to make your characters more powerful.
If PS:T did not have the experience and equipment advancement, it would be an Adventure game and not an RPG. Wouldn't it? That's why character development is the defining aspect of CRPGs.
If Silent Storm is like Jagged Alliance, then once again it contains strong RPG elements but is itself a hybrid. I put JA on the line, you say it's a strategy game first; either way, clearly the character-building is not the primary focus. I assume SS is similar.
quote:
And in Republic the Revolution character development is a focus, more so than most rpgs. Ultima 7 wasn't character devlopment focused. But many non-rpgs are.
I'll just copy/paste exactly what I said about this one post earlier. We seem to be recovering the same ground: Republic: The Revolution does contain RPG elements, but is not an RPG because it's main focus is (I think, I haven't played it) strategy and/or political simulation. Again, many non-RPG games do contain RPG elements.
quote:
As of today, I could break the rpg genre down into 7 or 8 completly different catagories, yet they all continue to be clumped into the genric rpg catagory, when only 2 catagorizations deserve the rpg title.
And here is the crux of this whole argument, which is perhaps the only part I should have addressed: Yes, I'm sure you can break the RPG genre down into 7 or 8 categories, but what you don't seem to want to accept is that they are subcategories of the RPG genre. You can do the same with Strategy games and Simulations, Adventure games and Action games, and even to a limited extent with Shooters. Just because a hex-based WWII game is very different from chess doesn't change the fact that we classify them both first as Strategy games. Is it so strange to apply this same methodolgy to RPGs? Gothic is an first-person RPG. Diablo is a hack n slash RPG. ToEE is a turn-based RPG. Break them down however far you want, dislike whatever ones you want, but they all trace back to the same top level: RPG. Why? Because they focus on increasing the power of your characters. |
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Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:50 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
"Look, you're calling it the wrestling game, so I'm just going to assume it's focus is on wrestling, not character building. If your character gains experience and raises his stats, then it's a wrestling game with RPG elements. If it were a wrestling game RPG (which certainly could exist), then the wrestling matches would have to be more stat-based than action-based, and the focus of the gameplay would have to be on the development of your character's abilities, as opposed to on the development of your personal action gaming skills."
Then that rules out Gothic as an rpg, as well as Oblivian and many other games you say are rpgs. If you replace wrestling with combat the wrestling game is stat and ability focused, more so and to a greater extent than most rpgs. Your ability dictates what matches you can fight in, and what moves you can use. What about the nascar games where the foucs is to power up your vehicle?
" I haven't played San Andreas, but if it's like GTA: Vice City, then your character is exactly as weak at the end of the game as he is at the beginning. There is one type of armor that you can pick up anywhere, and while there are several guns, all are easily obtainable. You could attain max character power within 15 minutes of starting the game. Therefor, attaining character power is not the focus of the GTA games. Isn't that clear? "
Eye of the Beholder 2 starts you off at lvl 7 and you might make lvl 11 by the end game. You are basically almost as powerful when you start than when you end. And you side step all the games that give you lvls as part of playing, and is not the focus of playing.
"Yes character development is the focus in PS:T, at least as far as rewards are concerned."
Rewards? So equipment is an integral part of rpgs? So that rules out Jade Empire, but adds in Zelda and Mega Man and Metroids.
The entire game is just an awesome story and building up your character by fighting stuff. When you succeed at overcoming challenges, your party is rewarded with experience and equipment to make your characters more powerful.
Just as in Metroids, Mega Man, and Zelda (minus the game experience, add to twitch experience).
"If PS:T did not have the experience and equipment advancement, it would be an Adventure game and not an RPG. Wouldn't it?"
All right, so Jade Empire is an Action game, good we're on the same page.
"That's why character development is the defining aspect of CRPGs."
Silly me I thought it was role playing, the worss in the title of the genre. What i fool I have been. Oh yeah, now we are back to Republic the Revolution, Black and White, the wrestling game, and nascar being rpgs, as well as many other non-rpgs.
"If Silent Storm is like Jagged Alliance, then once again it contains strong RPG elements but is itself a hybrid. I put JA on the line, you say it's a strategy game first; either way, clearly the character-building is not the primary focus. I assume SS is similar."
First off JA 1 and 2 are different. Part 1 had less rpg elements, like talking to npcs and crap. Silent Storm isn't like them, you enter a map and clear it, talking to npcs is done in the beggining and its not for side quests. A huge foucs of the game is gaining xp to climb up a diablo 2 like skill tree for your squad members that have different and istinct classes and skill trees, like diablo 2. Character building is more of a focus in SS than in most rpgs, such as PS:T, where the story is the focus.
"I'll just copy/paste exactly what I said about this one post earlier. We seem to be recovering the same ground: Republic: The Revolution does contain RPG elements, but is not an RPG because it's main focus is (I think, I haven't played it) strategy and/or political simulation. Again, many non-RPG games do contain RPG elements."
Copy and paste all you want. Republic the Revolution has character creation, character devlopment, and most actoivities are tied to your skills/attributes. By your definition it is an rpg, more so than PS:T (a story driven game), and EoB series (where leleling and character dev is rare). And the million other rpgs where character dev isn't the focus. So all the short NWN modules aren't rpgs since in a lot of them you don't even level?
"And here is the crux of this whole argument, which is perhaps the only part I should have addressed: Yes, I'm sure you can break the RPG genre down into 7 or 8 categories, but what you don't seem to want to accept is that they are subcategories of the RPG genre. You can do the same with Strategy games and Simulations, Adventure games and Action games, and even to a limited extent with Shooters. Just because a hex-based WWII game is very different from chess doesn't change the fact that we classify them both first as Strategy games. Is it so strange to apply this same methodolgy to RPGs? Gothic is an first-person RPG. Diablo is a hack n slash RPG. ToEE is a turn-based RPG. Break them down however far you want, dislike whatever ones you want, but they all trace back to the same top level: RPG. Why? Because they focus on increasing the power of your characters."
Diablo isn't an RPG because it has no role-playing at all, nothing; Gothic is twitch and cannot ever be an rpg (unless you can disprove the law of noncontradiction); ToEE is an rpg that happens to be turn-based. Rt or TB doesn't matter, as long as it is an rpg.
"Break them down however far you want, dislike whatever ones you want, but they all trace back to the same top level: RPG. "
Not true, the top is RPG as you say. That implies the games under it are rpgs, which they aren't. Think man, use your noggin. An rpg has to be an rpg to get the title rpg or fall under any subcatagory of rpg.
"Why? Because they focus on increasing the power of your characters."
Like the wrestling game, Zelda, Mega Man, Metroids, Republic the Revolution, and many non-rpgs.
Look man, we can keep saying the same crap over and over again, or you can realize that your definition is wrong, since it has so many holes. You can wish, hope, and force the games you want to be rpgs into being rpgs all day, but that doesn't mean they are. I could go around saying 2 + 2 = 79 all day, I can truely believe it, but that doesn't mean I'm right about it.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:40 am |
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yeesh
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 113
Location: Unofficially representing Queens |
Role-playing is something you do with other people. You can do it in business seminars (irate customer), you can do it in therapy (emotionally distant father), you can do it in the bedroom (naughty french maid), and you can do it gathered around the table with a bunch of friends and a bunch of dice and rulebooks (Fiffnir the Dwarven warrior). You cannot do it in a single player video game. There's no way to program the computer to actually give a flying digital bleep whether you stay in character or you're just selecting random dialogue choices. You can "role-play" in your head all you want, but you can do that in any game, as I've said before. Actual role-playing is, once again, a social activity. This is why you cannot define a genre of computer games by it.
I wish they had come up with a different name for the genre, I sure do. But they didn't. I assume they decided to call these games RPGs on the computer because the only games off the computer that looked anything like them were actual RPGs. It makes sense, but obviously it's causing you some difficulty. The first CRPGs were (and many still are) simulations of pen and paper role-playing games, just as Sports games are simulations of playing sports and Shooters are simulations of shooting. And just as your ability to shoot a shotgun is irrelevant to your success in a computer shooter, and just as your ability to dribble a ball is irrelevant to your success in a computer basketball game, so too is your ability to "role-play" completely extraneous to playing a CRPG. With innovation came games that looked a lot like their computer RPG brethren while not actually resembling anything in the pnp RPG world. And so the genre grew.
Once again, you're the one who disagrees with the industry, not me. No one is trying to classify racing games as RPGs, and no one is trying to classify wrestling games as RPGs. But console RPGs are RPGs, linear and free of character creation though they may be. Diablo is an RPG, even though you can't affect the story and you have to click. Gothic is most certainly an RPG, despite you having to do whatever it is you have to do in Gothic that you feel utterly disqualifies it. The SSI Goldbox games are RPGs, even though there is not a single personality among your whole party of 6. I'm not the one making these classifications up; they are already accepted by the gaming industry, from the companies who make the games to the magazines that review them to the stores that sell them to websites like this. My definition of RPGs isn't full of holes, it's inclusive and accurate. And it's not really my definition so much as it's THE definition. "Role-playing" has nothing to do with it. |
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Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:16 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
Yeesh,
So in your opinion role playing games have nothing to do with roleplaying? But pizzahutonline should be pizza hut? E-mail should be eltronic mail? E-books should be eletronic books? But god forbid an crpg resembled an rpg?
quote:
Role-playing is something you do with other people...
The first CRPGs were (and many still are) simulations of pen and paper role-playing games, just as Sports games are simulations of playing sports and Shooters are simulations of shooting.
Football and every sport is something you do with other people. Guess what? The computer can act for other people through the wonderful magic of AI and scripting. And guess what? There's no way to program the computer to actually give a flying digital bleep whether you stay in you play single, or against a real person, or that the quarterback switches brains to the reciever or a running back. Computers actually don't care at all about anything.
Roleplaying is creating a character, infusing that character with life and personality, and then being given opertunities to be able to react to situations in a way you thing your character would. Are you saying a computer can't do this? I say start playing some crpgs because you are missing out on some good games. Your arguement is still nonsense, and just getting worse and worse.
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You can "role-play" in your head all you want, but you can do that in any game, as I've said before. Actual role-playing is, once again, a social activity. This is why you cannot define a genre of computer games by it.
Actual sports playing is, once again, a social activity. So is shooting people. You could only shoot yourself if you are alone. Can't play any sport by yourself. I can play sports in my head all I want. I can shoot people in my head. But its more fun, and sane, to do it in a game. And as I described above, and no one can dispute, many games have been made that fit the roleplaying criteria. Many haven't, and you call them rpgs for some reason.
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I wish they had come up with a different name for the genre, I sure do.
Not me, because roleplaying games kind of hits the nail on the head for describing roleplaying games. But not non-roleplaying games. I wish they would come up with a different name for games that don't belong in the genre, I sure do.
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But they didn't.
Yes, thats what I'm trying to correct.
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The first CRPGs were (and many still are) simulations of pen and paper role-playing games
Yes, exactly. And that is what they stopped trying to be. They no longer want to be simulations of p&p roleplaying games when they are more and more able to do this. They want to be simulation of non-crpg games and be called rpgs. You're doing great helping me prove ,my points. Thanks buddy.
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and you can do it gathered around the table with a bunch of friends and a bunch of dice and rulebooks
Or, like in a sports game, the computer and program provide the rules, dice, and fake friends and people so you only need yourself.
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And just as your ability to shoot a shotgun is irrelevant to your success in a computer shooter, and just as your ability to dribble a ball is irrelevant to your success in a computer basketball game, so too is your ability to "role-play" completely extraneous to playing a CRPG.
Yes, that is the basis for rpgs. My ability to swing a sword is irrlevent and is covered by skills in ability of the game rules. My physical abilities and skill in general are irrelevant, thats why games that force me character to perform with my personal skill, like Gothic are not rpgs. You cannot disprove the law of noncontradiction. I cannot play the role of a character who is governed by his own skill and abilities, while he is also governed by my personal timing, aiming, mouse clicking, and button pointing ability. SAgain, thanks for helping me prove my points.
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Once again, you're the one who disagrees with the industry, not me.
Sorry I didn't know I should follow the indutsry commands like a good little lemming.
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No one is trying to classify racing games as RPGs, and no one is trying to classify wrestling games as RPGs.
You are by your definition of what an rpg is.
"The SSI Goldbox games are RPGs, even though there is not a single personality among your whole party of 6."
Creating a character and infusing that character with a personality and role playing that personality is what rpgs are about.
"I'm not the one making these classifications up; they are already accepted by the gaming industry, from the companies who make the games to the magazines that review them to the stores that sell them to websites like this."
yes, the super industry that scrapped Torn, UO2 (twice), FO3, BG3, and call paper mario rpg an rpg. The indutsry that went from dues ex to dues ex invisible war. the industry that dumbs down gamplay to not exclude the mentally inept but increasingly pushes the need for physical perfection. An industry that cares more about the graphics of a game than the gameplay of a game. The industry that makes a clear distinction between a squad fps and a regular fps, but groups Diablo, Gothic, and ToEE together. The game industry can lick my hairy, greasy, dingleberry ladden ass.
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My definition of RPGs isn't full of holes, it's inclusive and accurate. And it's not really my definition so much as it's THE definition. "Role-playing" has nothing to do with it.
Show me the source of this definition. I keep poking your definition full of holes over and over man, give me a break. And to say that definition is THE defibition of rpgs is assinine and rediculous. When rpgs have been around and the game play and tradtions and historical presidence defined long before you were the PC was invented, never mind crpgs played. And though some aspects might have had to be concieded due to tech limitations, when the limitations are no longer there, neither should the concesions.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Wed Jul 13, 2005 5:44 am |
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niteshade
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 100
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Roqua,
Sorry you had asked me for the game industry definition several posts ago. Basicaly it's what other people had said, a game that focuses on character development and where your characters skills play a part in the game. Obviously it's not a definition you agree with. Obviously it's not a perfect definition. But if you did say a definition for the term needed to be given. I would be hard pressed to come up with a better source for the definition then the one used by millions in the gaming industry. Really it's all just a name anyway, is the name really that important? Ultimately all that matters is weither you like a game (or a genre of games) or not. Any other words we use are just to make sure we all understand what each one is talking about.
To address one of your comments about PS:T (since that's a game I love dearly) you said it was not the character building that made it a RPG, but the story. I actually quite disagree there. I would agree that it was the story that made it a great game that I loved. But if it did not have the character building and stat based combat it would not be a RPG. You could just easily have such a great story in an adventure game or a first person shooter for example. And without the character building and stat based combat, those would really be your only two options left to tell that story in. |
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Wed Jul 13, 2005 6:56 am |
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