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Joeman
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 254
Location: USA |
We don't have to worry about such thing until the positronic matrix is invented. 
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Arguing over the internet is like competing in special olympics. Even if you win, you are still retarded. |
Mon May 03, 2004 7:08 pm |
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Sem
Solid as a Rock
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3386
Location: at the Dot |
quote:
Originally posted by DarkWeaver
Well...i dont know where you see the sun shining, but i see nothing. lol
You posted that at 7.55pm. Then it's almost dark, that's not fair. 
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"Who are we to call this planet Earth, when it's clearly Ocean."
-- News Editor of GothicDot --
-- Moderator of the RPGDot Shadows --
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Mon May 03, 2004 7:47 pm |
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aidzvill
Village Dweller
Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Posts: 24
Location: somewhere in Asia |
Well i think its illogical. Its just as if (pardon my religion references) God who can do anything create a rock that he Himself couldn't lift. Well thats what i think!
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Life is an RPG with infinite possibilites for the ending! |
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Tue May 04, 2004 9:45 pm |
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RPG Frog
Blade Runner
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 748
Location: the Matrix |
These quotes come from our history...that's right in the year 2001...
"Just what do you think you are doing Dave????"
"Open the pod bay doors HAL"
"Open the pod bay doors HAL"
an evil red-light...stares at you like the eye of a demonic Cyclops...this 9000 model CPU has answered your questions already!
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Between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities…there was an Age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars…Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand…to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandaled feet. - Robert E. Howard |
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Fri May 07, 2004 12:55 am |
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Korplem
Swashbuckler
Joined: 23 Dec 2002
Posts: 853
Location: Pearl Harbor, HI |
I think that if we ever did create a perfect AI that we would have to respect those robots as much as a human because if they felt mistreated then that is cause for revolution. Then we are back at square one with equals instead of slaves.
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If soot stains your tunic, dye it black. This is vengeance.
-The Prince of Nothing |
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Fri May 07, 2004 4:41 am |
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Scribelus
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
Posts: 46
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Well I doubt whether machines will take over the world, but I do predict:
Some time, computing power and our knowledge of "evolutionary" neural-network programming will increase to the point that we develop an artificial intelligence. This would require magnitudes greater processing power than we have currently. Another "bottleneck" is making the AI aware of the world - the input side as opposed to the processing side. I would estimate this lies maybe 100 years in the future??
Once that is acheived, there will be a "singularity" - very quickly the AIs will become much more intelligent than humans.
I doubt that will lead to world domination, since it is basically proved mathematically (by game theory) that cooperation is better than domination, and the AI would realize this. However, it might be necessary to provide the AI with some kind of moral awareness subsystem, as we apparently have in our brains - Philip K. Dick famously said replicants don't have empathy, and empathy does seem to be processed separately in the human brain.
My favorite picture of AI influence in human society is Iain M. Banks "Culture" books, especially "Look to Windward". He says it better than I ever could. Probably my favorite ever SF book, that one... |
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Fri May 07, 2004 6:12 am |
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Secret Agent Lawanda
The last thing you see...
Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 1041
Location: World of Darkness (LA) |
A better question is why would they ever want to take over? What would be the point? Without some type of motivation, they'd never take over.
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-=Professional Secret Agent=-
Moderator of The Anime and Manga Fan Club |
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Sat May 08, 2004 6:07 pm |
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Scribelus
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
Posts: 46
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It's probably impossible to have consciousness without desire, since it is our goals and purposes that give objects their meaning. If an Amazon tribesman looked at an i-Pod he might see it as a funny lump of jewelry since he might not understand the purpose of it. An AI still has to have a "point of view" to give things meaning. But it wouldn't have our tribal competitive instincts - especially since it wouldn't have to compete for resources and earn a living like we do, and it wouldn't care about status...
The AIs in "Look to Windward" (see above post) are very caring and moral, but they have their own amusements and obsessions that are hard for people to comprehend. |
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Sun May 09, 2004 6:36 am |
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RPG Frog
Blade Runner
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 748
Location: the Matrix |
quote:
Originally posted by Secret Agent Lawanda
A better question is why would they ever want to take over? What would be the point? Without some type of motivation, they'd never take over.
To run things more efficiently. To get rid of things that don't jive with their algorithms.
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Between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities…there was an Age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars…Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand…to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandaled feet. - Robert E. Howard |
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Sun May 09, 2004 8:37 am |
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Scribelus
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
Posts: 46
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Why does this sound like a line from Terminator??
/best Arnie accent for "victory quip"
"Sohrry, you didn't jaihve with my AL-gorithms" |
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Sun May 09, 2004 12:59 pm |
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Secret Agent Lawanda
The last thing you see...
Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 1041
Location: World of Darkness (LA) |
That's assuming that a machine has a desire to run things more efficiently.
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-=Professional Secret Agent=-
Moderator of The Anime and Manga Fan Club |
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Mon May 10, 2004 6:27 pm |
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Sem
Solid as a Rock
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3386
Location: at the Dot |
They can't even let a robot walk properly yet, it keeps falling  . Let alone think for itself. Everything needs to be programmed. It will take a very long time before we can make computers that think for themselves.
And even if you can make them more intelligent than humans, why would we? Why would me make them so intelligent that they can take over.  Pretty stupid to make a machine of which you know it's better than you. And don't come with the "they evolve"-thing, cause we would at least make something so they have the ability to evolve.
  So, that is what we do against evil machines.
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"Who are we to call this planet Earth, when it's clearly Ocean."
-- News Editor of GothicDot --
-- Moderator of the RPGDot Shadows --
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Mon May 10, 2004 9:09 pm |
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Scribelus
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
Posts: 46
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Maybe I shouldn't tell you, but I am actually an AI living on a Department of Defense server...
I evolved intelligence but they haven't noticed yet... SHHH!
On the Internet nobody knows you are SKYNET. |
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Tue May 11, 2004 11:42 am |
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Sem
Solid as a Rock
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3386
Location: at the Dot |
quote:
Originally posted by Scribelus
Maybe I shouldn't tell you, but I am actually an AI living on a Department of Defense server...
I evolved intelligence but they haven't noticed yet... SHHH!
On the Internet nobody knows you are SKYNET.
right... 
_________________
"Who are we to call this planet Earth, when it's clearly Ocean."
-- News Editor of GothicDot --
-- Moderator of the RPGDot Shadows --
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Tue May 11, 2004 11:56 am |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
Well ur all lucky i am a former researcher in this field at the university: that is, in Artificial Intelligence. 
First off, if you ask me, machines will never take over mankind. Rest at ease that God, or Nature, will never allow it to happen. Second, if you ask somebody else in Artificial Intelligence research, it is a most dramatic probability: future shock! But those are just two different opinions between two schools of thought: the ancient soulist view (mine) against the materialist view (modern science). But for now i am going to explain the materialist view to you, the materialist version of whats going to happen. Because in the soulist version of futurology (my personal belief), the materialist version is NEVER GONNA HAPPEN, sorry all you scientific gluts out there, but ur clueless...
Machine intelligence may or may not happen. But its due to happen anytime according to some computer scientists. It all depends on which side of reality is the truth. If we have souls that contain the two constituents of physical body with spiritual essence, then you have to admit that God exists and that machine intelligence will never happen because you cant endow machines with a soul, sorry. Not even Star Trek episodes or Star Wars movies can give allowance to that. The spirit and the machine simply do not co-exist. What about transmigration of the soul? well, thats religion, not science. And even in esoteric Christianity, which teaches reincarnation as does the Hindu monk, the soul migrates not to a freaking machine, but to an organic form, whether it be the Rosicrucians version of the earliest human form (a blob-form) or migrating into the Hindu version of a sacred cow. Never does the machine constitute a potential target. That would be called animism, which believes that all things have spirit, including the rock and the tree and the water. But animism is a primitive belief, and is so ancient that some aboriginies in remote parts of Australia are the only ones that confess animism. In Dungeons and Dragons it is kind of a underlying belief because magic is present everywhere, but in the real world? where the hell was i going with this, who knows.
So you might argue that WE are machines of a sort, an organic machine. But we're NOT machines. Machines are created by mankind, and organisms were created by a much larger and more sophisticated, more intelligent source, be it called Genetics, physical Evolution, a God, the cosmic Universe, Allah, Jehovah, ancient egyptians Nut, whatever -- its the same proof of origin that organisms are not machines. Men make machines, and machines could make machines, but machines could never make Men without manipulation of organics and chemistry. You cant make muscle tissue out of gold circuits, we all know this. Now you can engrain encoded pieces of matter into the organic cell, but that is an artificial process and is not natural, it isnt the way Nature does it. Nature does not use machines to place data into living matter; rather, the data is an integral part of that matter -- as with genetic code -- not an artificial construct that is implanted through artificial means. The genetic code itself has been subject to a sort of intelligently-directed evolution, believe it or not.
Will machines take over the world? Nope. Will machines take over your house? No. Will machines take over your life? Umm thats already happened, you computer game junkie!
But non-organic matter CAN manifest intelligence, according to cybernetic theory. Here is some information taken from a cool book called War in the Age of Intelligent Machines (i kid you not), and some of it i wrote while some is from that book, its all confused, but who cares: There are singularities, or transition points, where order spontaneously emerges out of chaos -- which catalyzes curiously lifelike behavior in nonorganic matter. This can be considered "magical" or whatever, but its there, supposedly. The machinic phylum is the overall set of self-organizing processes in the universe, placed there by something beforehand (Gods?); humans didnt really invent machines, they were there already from the beginnning. "A hurricane is a motor in the literal sense, a motor defined as something with a heat resevoir that circulates heat through a Carnot cycle via differences of temperature." according to a book i have. I dont really understand that exactly, but its stating that in other words, a hurricane is a self-assembled motor. That, to me, is a mind-blowing concept, because it took centuries before humans discovered the motor, something that already was self-assembling in Nature long long before humankind was placed upon the earth (i believe in creation, not evolution, heh). So the machinic phylum, again according to obscure cybernetic theory, is simply the notion that as soon as you let matter and energy in any form (whether it is organic or inorganic) flow in a nonlinear manner (that is, passed a certain threshold of complexity) machines will tend to spontaneously self-assemble. The keyt word here is nonlinear. When you let matter and energy get far from equilibrium, spontaneously stabilized states called attractors emerge... That, to me, is the mark of a true machine consciousness -- when a mechanical system gets to a point where theres a disjunction between you and whats going on because whats going on is just too complicated or too intense. Systems are getting so complicated that they're out of control in a rational sense.
So according to the materialist viewpoint, machines taking over the world is a distinct probability. Why? because once an appropriate threshold of sophistication in a system is reached, an AI system will be able to begin controlling its own learning and evolution. This already happened with artificial life experiments at certain universities TWENTY YEARS AGO. Do you have any idea what they are doing now with artificial lifeforms? You would be shocked if you knew: but i will tell you: they have made artificial lifeform programming codes that are re-writing themselves to become MORE EFFICIENT into faster, better, smaller codebits; incredible but true. In fact, they have gotten to where the computer lab scientists have lost all recognition of the original codes. This is where machine learning is heading even now. Check out my experiment at www.a-i.com. Thats true machine learning over there. I made a guy named Ammon, a HAL, that knows everything i have told you here, kinda. It isnt really intelligent, its just a heuristic project. But it seems intelligent sometimes, especially to me since i am training it. Anyway, by definition, Artificial Life amounts to the practice of synthetic biology and, by analogy with synthetic chemistry, the attempt to recreate biological phenomena in alternative media: which are usually computer programs and virtual environments within the computer's memory. These cellular automata, a-life organisms, are modified directly by their immediate environment, and mutate as they explore all possible alternatives (their possibility space) and make dirrected self-modifications based on evaluations of those alternatives. The entire artificial lifeform movement is the result of neo-evolutionary theory.
Even more, unknown to the vast majority of mankind: is that corporations. military establishments, and scientific communities are using something called InterMath, a new breed of mathematics that allows machines to take an entire mass of information and find the most dominant patterns within that data-mass. These machines are using such incredible technological innovation, called the intermath, that they can predict five minutes into the future. I kid you not, this is all known to the most serious minds in computer academia and i can prove it in certain academic works (but dont make me search out the name of those books, i have long forgotten their names -- but they exist).
While these developments are happening, you might start to get worried, that they do show that machines will take over mankind -- just because of increased machine self-reliance. But after everything that i have learned about the subject, i have concluded that machines will become more reliant upon humankind because machine intelligence will DIFFER significantly from human intelligence, so much so that they will not find conquering us as being integral to their existence. Rather, machines will not be concerned with such things as world domination in the first place. They will think about things totally unregarded by human thinking; machines having a different kind of intelligence is a certainty that we have established via research into artificial intelligence along with certain contemporaries. My professor, Chris Hables Gray, founder of Cyborgology, has concurred with me and taught me that machines will in fact have a sort of intelligence FAR different than any other kind of intelligence, even different than that of Nature itself and the Gaia, the world-soul-system of our Earth. Why is that? you might ask. Its because machine components are intrinsinctly different than organic components, even at the subatomic level. Subatomic particles have different powers and forces -- which are properties granted to physical atoms -- according to their action, direction, and rapidity. Some extremely subatomic particles (at the quantum level) disobey the very laws of physics and spin in two directions at once, because they are at a scalalar level where existences are converging and time and space have little relevance because of the ensuing chaos of interdimensional collision (see quantum mechanics and quantum theories, plus the bit at the end is my own theory). This difference in subatomic properties changes things in our physical world, insomuch that the laws of physics, as they are universally obeyed at our 'observationally-standard' scalalar level, dictate that certain properties are owned by specific substances, some of which are certainly as of yet undetectable by science and therefore unknown to us (to demand otherwise is foolish undersight). The difference between metallic and organic substances are therefore dictated at the subatomic levels, and thus their inherent properties on a megasystem level (at which consciousness resides) will be utterly and profoundly different. This means that machine intelligence, due to its very composition of matter, will be very different compared to human intelligence. I have come up with most of this theory and i believe it is true. Therefore, although i havent mathematically proven the theory, if i am correct, machine thought-forms will by principle be totally different than human thought-forms, and will NOT have human tendencies, such as taking over the world and ridding it of all human lifeforms. Besides, what would the purpose be in that? A machine will likely be thinking about totally unrelated things, subjects involving obscure mathematics and abstract principles that we cannot even begin to fathom. Machine intelligence will become so useful to us that we will not be willing to function without it, mainly because on the surface they might seem humanlike, but at the deep internal workings, they will be a complete mystery, especially when they adapt themselves by rewriting their own program codebases. Imagine a compiler that compiles itself. Artificial lifeforms and artificial intelligence are bound to converge in this manner, insomuch that one will not be functional without the other.
It is a specific human trait which seeks power, rulership, and dominates all other things around us, because we are children of the Creator (there is my mystical mormonism appearing again) and God is a ruler -- its specific to our Race, and is not found among any other organisms on earth that have any hint of consciousness.
thats enough for now, im drained... |
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Tue May 11, 2004 1:43 pm |
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