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Gotit
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
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| Is my char wrong or it's me or magic is just a toy? |
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My char is a mage level 10, still in chapter 1. I already delayed chapter 2 for one level up in the hope to rise magic skills further than just toy stuff. But the goblin skeleton summon is just a joke, not even half as strong than a... goblin skeleton! (don't ask me the logic  ).
Ok I get fun in putting a bit too much learn points in hunting skill, spend a learn points in potions but that's really a stuff I could have avoid... too late. I spend a few point in sneaking, still not have found any situation where it could work and be usefull, but again too late to save the learn points.
Anyway due to various object and other I have :
- 63 protection vs sword but the bad point is that I don't see that level up much more before a long time.
- 20% to 1H and CB, 17% to 2H.
- 1H Hit 50, 2H Hit 70 and +4 skill, CB Hit 60
- Str 40, Dex 14, Mana 35 with a +10 ring or 55 with a +20 weaker 2H.
- A useless fire arrow rune (why the game force to learn that crap?)
- A goblin skeleton rune not that much more usefull and that my mana allow me to summon it only once  .
- No other rune available (will I get only one per magic circle??!!) and anyway no Learn Point yet.
- Life 173 because of an abuse of Beliar preying (but that definitly help and improve my fun when I used it and could get help by buying very usefull items)
- For mention, I can't get anymore blessing from the fire priest in the town and water mage blessing seems not really usefull. I have only the shrines that continue to work.
So what do next? No more try to make my mage more than a toy mage but forget magic for now? Instead level up once or twice and put that in fight skills?
One word about fighting skill, I can't succeed enjoy and use 2H and prefer much more 1H appart agaisnt very few monsters like zombies. |
Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:06 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
Mages kick arse in Gothic. But it takes a lot of work and complete single minded dedication to become a powerful mage. Just like it should.
If you wasted that much skill points on things like hunting and sneaking, then you are gonna be at a disadvantage. Playing a mage requires that you put almost all your skill points into magery.
If you dont do that, your mage abilities are always going to be second fiddle to your other skills.
P.S. Skill points are the most precious thing in Gothic. You praying to Beliar was a huge mistake. Money is very easy to make and is practicaly infinite once you know how to get it. But trading your health points for money is basicaly trading the most precious comodity in the game (Skill Points) for the most common (Money).
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:01 pm |
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Gotit
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
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Thanks for the response, well you succeed to break my moral but thanks anwyay.
You say put everything in magic? How this is possible? I succeed to be a mage at level 9 ok let say level 8 if I knew/understand I had to keep Learn Point available in order to graduate mage. Anyway I don't understand what it means to spend all Learn Points in magic from level 1 to 8 when you can't use any magic at all. Perhaps you are speaking of Gothic but not Gothic 2 or NOTR?
Also you are saying that there is infinite money but not infinite Learn Point. Do you mean that like the priest of fire the shrine will stop working?
If not they bring Skill point so I don't worry... If I ever found how get the infinite money resource.
A side note, how could you knew that this will stop? Before knowing that the trading was ok and I didn't quote any hint on this way of working, design weakness if you ask me.  Ha well I now have stop Beliar stuff yep.
But second side note you get help by a mage of fire adept of Beliar so using yourself Beliar had sense. |
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Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:26 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
I am speaking of Gothic 2. Your problem seems to be that you feel you *have* to spend all your skill points as soon as you get them. Thats not true...
The way I play it is this:
1. Put just enough in blacksmithing to be able to make a basic sword. That will give you the infinite money supply you need.
2. Learn how to read all tablets. The cost is worth the skills upgrades they provide, no matter what guild you choose.
3. Put everything else into magery. Keep upgrading mana so its always at a level where you feel comfortable (dont over do it though), and save the rest of your skill points for learning spells.
4. Save before you learn a new spell, and try it out. If you dont like it, then load and dont get the spell. Nothing worse than wasting skills points on something you never use.
At the moment I have a pretty hefty store of skill points just sitting there because there arent any spells I want at the moment, and I am comfortable with my mana level. Just because you have the skills points doesnt mean you should spend them immediately, there might be something you need them for later and you could regret it.
I am not saying that people are going to stop training you. What I am saying is there is only a finite amount of creatures and quests for you to gain skill points from, so you need to spend them very wisely. Whereas money is an infinite resource that you just need to invest some time into.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:13 pm |
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Gotit
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
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Thansk for the detail, it worth it.
1 => Nice trick I could try, material source limitation will certainly make it slow but nice to get money.
Side note, when I had to choose what aprentice to become this one was a pretty tiedous choice. But I recently discovered I could anyway learn it even I choosed to be another aprentice, the one the game story strongly suggest you, skinery.
Ha well if shrines prey isn't limited, I don't worry then. Believe me that was quite cool to get the boost with Beliar. 
2 => I have absolutely no idea how to read those dam tablets. Don't say me how, I want search by myself. I believed that I should have the oportunity to read them only later but it seems not so I'll search harder.
3 => Common, before being a mage you put every points in magic? Something doesn't match.
4 => Well it's a different point of view. I don't want to maximize my character at any price including fun, and I hope the game isn't a crap so I must do it to have a fun game.
I want play and follow a bit a path. The game gives the advice to choose one path of magic and stick to it. I followed this advice and has choosed the summon path. So perhaps the problem is in this path not in magic general.
But honestly, you can't ask a joyous fresh mage to not learn any spell and keep that for later. Plus you don't know what comes later so if it's only a circle 3 that it's ok... well there's a problem somewhere in this logic. |
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Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:12 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
quote:
Originally posted by Gotit
1 => Nice trick I could try, material source limitation will certainly make it slow but nice to get money.
Side note, when I had to choose what aprentice to become this one was a pretty tiedous choice. But I recently discovered I could anyway learn it even I choosed to be another aprentice, the one the game story strongly suggest you, skinery.
Skinning is a waste of skill points. All it does is give you money, and unlike blacksmithing, there is a limited supply of animals to skin. Its even worse if you waste skill points on skinning AND blacksmithing.
Just learn how to make a basic sword, and go to Onars farm. You can get infinite steel from the blacksmith there. I make about 10 - 15K in 30mins of play doing that.
quote:
Originally posted by Gotit
Ha well if shrines prey isn't limited, I don't worry then. Believe me that was quite cool to get the boost with Beliar.
I didnt know you meant shrine's. But considering I can make 10-15K in 30mins, I wouldnt trade health for money.
quote:
Originally posted by Gotit
3 => Common, before being a mage you put every points in magic? Something doesn't match.
Obviously if you can't cast spells, then dont spend points on mana yet. But that doesnt mean you should spend them on something else. Since I was playing a mage, I saved almost all my skill points until I was a mage, and just used scroll's in the meantime. I was a *dedicated* mage =0P
quote:
Originally posted by Gotit
4 => Well it's a different point of view. I don't want to maximize my character at any price including fun, and I hope the game isn't a crap so I must do it to have a fun game.
Thats a matter of opinion. The way I see it, you character grew up in a world full of magic, he should know a little about the spells and be able to have a good idea of what ones he should purchase. But since Pirhana Bytes didnt give you that knowledge, the only way is to try before you buy. Its up to you if you want to do that, but to me, spending my hard earned skill points on a spell I hate is going to destroy my fun a lot more than reloading and trying another one.
quote:
Originally posted by Gotit
I want play and follow a bit a path. The game gives the advice to choose one path of magic and stick to it. I followed this advice and has choosed the summon path. So perhaps the problem is in this path not in magic general.
I dont realy see a reason to stick to one path. Its not like there is a skill tree you advance through or anything. You can cast any spell from the circles you know without having to have any previous knowledge in that path...
quote:
Originally posted by Gotit
But honestly, you can't ask a joyous fresh mage to not learn any spell and keep that for later. Plus you don't know what comes later so if it's only a circle 3 that it's ok... well there's a problem somewhere in this logic.
Read the books in the library if you want to know what spells there are. But if you try and learn every spell when you get a new circle, you are going to be very dissapointed later on, because there are only a limited number of runes for you to use (Especialy in NOTR), and ending up with a nice big repetoir of weak spells while the *realy* fun ones are out of your grasp because you dont have runes is going to realy upset you.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:08 pm |
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Uriziel
Grand Mage
Joined: 17 May 2002
Posts: 735
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Praying at the Innos shrines gives you mana if you are a mage, but this stops after a while and you then only get strength, life, or dex.
Before becoming a mage, paladin, or merc. the praying randomly gives mana, str., dex, and life. You can save, pray, and reload if you did not like what you got and try again.
Once you become mage(for example) and praying no longer gives mana, which is what you really want, you should certainly do the save/reload thing to get life. Strength and dex are kinda pointless if you are playing as a true mage. The same goes for a Merc/dragon hunter.......you don't want or need mana.
One exploit you can use to gain mana quickly is to enter the monastery and pray to the statue there, then go sleep in the novice quarters next door until the next morning........pray....sleep...pray........sleep until you stop getting mana. (You need plenty of gold to do this)
Chekote has told you a very valuable thing.....save your LP's. The runes kinda suck until Circle 3 and of course get better in later circles. Search for and save the scrolls like "Wave of Death", "Rain of Fire", and "Army of Darkness" until you can learn and make these great runes. AoD will become your best friend for general mayhem. RoF will help immensely against multiple enemies, and WoD is simply an awesome rune and will kill so many enemies at once that you can easily crash the game if you lure in too many enemies. Take a speed potion and run around the castle to get the orcs after you(zigzag back and forth so they don't stop following) then unleash WoD on them all. You'll be shocked at how much death will be around you 
Chekote recommends blacksmithing for money, but I use animal skins and never have money problems. Smithing will make unlimited gold, but I think it is to friggin boring.....to each his own lol.
_________________
Chris: Dad, what's the blow-hole for?
Peter: I'll tell you what it's not for, son. And when I do, you'll understand why I can never go back to Sea World. |
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Mon Dec 05, 2005 10:10 pm |
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Gotit
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
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Cherokee, Uriziel, thanks both for the advices, it's cool helping newbies.
I bet I won't succeed make you share my point of view but let me try.
There's a story logic lead by the NPC talks, in-game book reading, any in-game resources. I could add the manual but not sure it fits, in the version I used the manual is mostly empty and even after first page it warns you of spoiling that follow and that you could want to avoid reading. So in this case even the manuel isn't an in-game resource. All this story logic/in-game resources is leading a logic.
There's another logic, much more pratical on a point of view to optimize your char. The game offer resources and it doesn't matter the way you discover them, you exploit them. It's typically when you replay the game, but that's also by reading a walkthrough, by reloading a previous save, by reading forums, by asking help in forusm  and so on.
Those two logic are always quite different, and the answer can be quite different if you apply one or another. For me, the first logic is quite important because it's the only resource you have when you first play the game and the first play is an experience much more unforgotable than any replay you could do after. It's also important because playing overpowerfull character becomes very fast tiedous. That say, the difference bewteen the two is quite complex and I doubt I ever played a game enough easy for me so I could finish it and never get any external help or at least by relaoding too much save game or going through various replays.
That two point of view explain why I felt some advices you gave me wasn't ok. It's not because I feel them wrong, but because I didn't feel in them that they was following the story logic. But well it's a difficult subject we should perhaps close and thanks for the hints.
About the initial topic of the thread, how I feel it for now, is that if you follow the first logic then magic in this game is a toy, but more to see for later in the game. If you folow more the second logic you could get, at least sooner, perhaps up to the end of the game, a magic which isn't a toy at all.
Few points :
- About skinery and mage : You said runes are very rare, then skin could be cool after all, I'm not sure yet how and if I can already get it, but sooner or later skinery skills will provide me at least one more rune, so well perhaps it wasn't a so bad choice for a mage after all.
- About to choose one the rune path and follow it. It's what strongly suggest you the mage master when you graduate to mage and get from him your first rune, (second rune in fact).
- Having to wait third circle to get usefull runes at the moment you get them, thanks for the hint but it's a design weakness in the magic system of the game. Also this choice that doesn't match at all the story logic I mentionned above.
- The additional hints you provide me seems to confirm how useless is the summon path or if you prefer all the summon spells. Good hints but another magic design flaw.
- One remark, keeping resources for later most always work in order to get the more powerfull char... at the end of the game when it will finish soon.
- About the smith yes, I noticed that possibility (much later in the game) and also tried it to see your advice and see no resource/speed problem, if you ask me that's a big hole there, probably not something to abuse.
- About god prey I had noticed the logic change and will take care of that to not abuse. About that, I regret not have wait graduation before using the blessing from the fire priest, ha well it's past! |
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Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:12 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
Everything I do in life I try to do in the most efficient manner possible. I am quite obsessed with efficiency in fact. That also carries over to the games I play. Thats why I play Gothic the way I do, I dont want to waste any resource, and want my char to be as powerful as possible.
Some people see exploits as ruining the game. But I have a lot of fun running around and seeing what I can do that the dev's dont want me to! =0P. My particular favourite is working my way into area's I am not supposed to be.
I dont however agree that the Onar's farm blacksmith is an exploit. You still have to pay for the steel, and you still have to make the swords. Just like you would in real life. There *should* be a huge amount of raw materials just like there is in the real world. Its not very realistic to have an entire society working off of 2 pieces of raw steel now is it?
Its just a matter of how you want to play the game. It is a role playing game after all so there isn't realy a right or a wrong way to play it.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:18 pm |
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Rithe
Head Merchant
Joined: 27 Nov 2002
Posts: 51
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Just a question about blacksmithing. I know in Gothic you could get unlimited steel to make weapons, and could easily exploit it to make a lot of money. For some reason I thought they didn't allow that in G2 though. I just got Gothic 2 Gold (finally the addon is in English ) and was trying to decide what to do. When I played normal G2, I went with skinning usually, and made good money. Is there still infinite steel in NotR? I might have to do that if that's the case, although I already got skinning, but I was planning on being a Paladin, so most points will go in Str, 2H, and maybe Xbow.
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Paladin Rithe |
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Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:15 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
Yes there is infinite steel in NOTR. The blacksmith at Onar's farm will sell you two pieces at a time. Sometimes you have to wait a few seconds for him to get more. But if you get your smithing rythum in sync with his then you wont ever be waiting around.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:10 pm |
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Gotit
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
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I never questioned the smith answer, that's a hole in the game that could easily spoil most challenge, but yep it's full part of story. Just a game design flaw. In real life if swords was so easy and fast to make you couldn't even sell even one.
But why not learn any first level spell and second level spell? Just because you know that in future you'll get short in runes. That isn't part of story.
About efficiency, ok fine for you it's like you mentionned in your nice conclusion. I prefer challenge myself.
But one word anyway about efficiency, your character doesn't know the numerous technics of skining so I don't see where is the efficiency. I bet my char will not only know that (and will have more rune that your) but also will know to make swords and magical weapons and will beat the game. What will be the more powerfull character?
Pure fighting strength is only a part of RPG games, it's not a shooter. Lol ok take it cool and take fun and thanks for the hints and sorry for the disturbance. |
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Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:15 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
quote:
Originally posted by Gotit
I never questioned the smith answer, that's a hole in the game that could easily spoil most challenge, but yep it's full part of story. Just a game design flaw. In real life if swords was so easy and fast to make you couldn't even sell even one.
I wasnt arguing with you about the smith. I was answering Rithe's question. Also real life handmade swords are faaaaaaaaaaaaar from cheap. Have you ever tried to by a traditionaly handmade sword?
quote:
Originally posted by Gotit
But why not learn any first level spell and second level spell? Just because you know that in future you'll get short in runes. That isn't part of story.
I never said dont learn spells in the 1st and 2nd level. I said make sure you try before you buy and make sure that they are worth the investment. Thats a personal decision. I think it *is* part of the story that runes are rare. When the hero was growing up he didnt exactly see them laying around on the floor, they are very rare items and the people of the world would be perfectly aware of that fact. So its definately part of the story.
quote:
Originally posted by Gotit
About efficiency, ok fine for you it's like you mentionned in your nice conclusion. I prefer challenge myself.
Efficiency is a challenge also. I cleared out the entire map of monsters in chapter one because I wanted to ensure that I got the most monsters to respawn as possible when I moved to chapter two. That was both efficient and very challenging.
quote:
Originally posted by Gotit
But one word anyway about efficiency, your character doesn't know the numerous technics of skining so I don't see where is the efficiency. I bet my char will not only know that (and will have more rune that your) but also will know to make swords and magical weapons and will beat the game. What will be the more powerfull character?
Knowing everything doesnt make you efficient. Ever heard the phrase "Jack of all trades, master of none"? Thats exactly what you will end up as if you don't specialise. You also spoke earlier about not doing things because they are not part of the story; your character doesnt know that he gets a rune by learning skinning. So now who's not following the story? ;oP
quote:
Originally posted by Gotit
Pure fighting strength is only a part of RPG games, it's not a shooter.
No, but it is a major MAJOR part of the Gothic world.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:27 pm |
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Gotit
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
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Hey I was taking fun from you, no long debate to get there! Just two different point of view, again thanks for the hints even if your answer : "put in trash your char, restart all and play it as a starvation monk quest" didn't pleased me.
Just one wrong point, my character perfectly know he will get a rune because of skinery, because he got a quest that you have no chance achieve if you don't have skinery.
And I bet you don't even get the quest if you don't have the right skin skill. That said my attempt to achieve it failed but it's still open for future or perhaps it requires a bloody version I didn't choose to do and nope I won't get back to a save game, perhaps if I replay the game. 
And one remark, the smith trick is very bad, it's like an easy cheat that just break the challenge. I understand that with this trick you can buy any scroll you want before becoming a mage and use no learn points at all. Yes part of story but no fun and no challenge.
About your advice of using tablets before becoming a mage, I have found now where to learn the language and well, I'd be curious to have a detailled explanation on that. Eventuelly you pick up a run... but by knowing something you have no chance to know yet. |
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Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:06 pm |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
Just a little thing - are you playing through Gothic 2 for the first time ever, with expansion? If so, I would strongly advice you to play a Soldier or Mercenary instead, because mages are by far the hardest class to play in the expansion.
If you still want to continue as a mage, my first advice to you would be to get 30% one hand. This is a general rule, regardless of class, because you get a new 1h combo then, which makes fighting much easier.
Wait as LONG AS POSSIBLE to use the tablets. You should have at least 120 or so mana before you use a single mana stone tablet. At that point in the game, each mana point will cost you 5 skill points to improve, and that is way too much. Use tablets from then on and up, and you will get 250-300(with rings) in no time.
Other than that, I don't think I need to repeat other advice. If you get completely stuck, try as a different class first, as mages are a lot harder to play in chapters 1-4 than the other classes, because you only get truly powerful magic in chapter 5(which are so powerful you suddenly become incredibly powerful).
Good luck! |
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Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:48 pm |
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