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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
I think most CRPG developers will tell you that the proportion of time and money devoted to graphics is far higher than it used to be. The increase in that slice of the "resource pie" has to be taken from something else, and I feel that gameplay has given up something.
First, i agree graphics is not the most important thing for a good RPGs. Like in other genre - flashy graphics without good gameplay only end up as good tech demo, not good game. I think practically all peoples agree on these. Old-school RPG gamers tend to more critical regarding this issue, as one MUD player that i came across said - he dislike modern RPGs like Baldur's Gate with flashy graphics. Who know, maybe because his accumulated experience with MUDs game, or nostalgia factor.
However graphics is increasingly important in modern RPGs as well as in other genre: Immersion factor - the stark realism helps bringing out visceral experience, no more blocky humanoid on screen or the "stick man" as in old Ultima games. Special effects - shadow, lightning, fog, or spell effects can show its impact. They help creating believable, responsive, life-like and immersive game world. You can say graphics is not important in old games, but not now as they capable to do lots of things in modern games.
I have no idea how far game developers should throw they money into graphics, but market competition and future hardware arrivals (Xbox 2, PS3) certainly make game development more costly:
quote:
Game publishers sweat console change
Published: September 23, 2004, 4:00 AM PDT
By David Becker
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
...
With schedules and budgets of top-tier games already approaching those of Hollywood films, the advent of new game machines from Microsoft and Sony is expected to put added pressure on game developers and may lead to further consolidation in the shrinking ranks of game publishers.
"It's a big, big problem the industry faces," said David Cole, president of research company DFC Intelligence. "As you increase the graphics capabilities on the console...it costs so much more to create a game that lives up to the graphics potential. Developers are really going to have to look at the bottom line."
...
Current development budgets for an A-list title average around $5 million, Doak said. For the upcoming consoles, "I expect the minimum will be two to three times the current costs," he said.
That's a nut that some developers and publishers aren't going to be able to crack. The current generation of consoles has already seen the dissolution of several major publishers, including 3DO and Acclaim, and more may be on the way
"We're seeing some publishers teetering on the edge right now," said Schelley Olhava, an analyst for researcher IDC. "It's going to get harder and harder for the small publishers because the development costs are getting so high."
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Sat Sep 25, 2004 9:33 am |
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cfmdobbie
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 1859
Location: London, England |
It's all Doom's fault.
Way back at the dawn of time, we played games that were fun, regardless of the graphics the developers managed to scrape together at the last minute. We were content with a stick figure representing our infantry, and didn't need specular highlights to tell us they were dressed in metal; the number "3" in the bottom corner of the infantry tile told us they were well defended - we were allowed to leave it to our imagination to decide what this band of well-trained and heavily armed soldiers looked like.
But then, in came Doom.
Overnight a new genre appeared! Suddenly there was space in the game development market for anyone who could write an FPS to compete, suddenly there was a quick and easy way for small studios to make money! So everyone made Doom-clones. As Chris Crawford writes: "The history of game design in the 90s is mostly a story of people trying to outdo Doom."
But Chris Crawford, while being an excellent and visionary game designer, is fatally flawed in one respect - he just doesn't get graphics. He concentrates on the evolution of game design too much, and discounts the evolution of graphics - it seems inconcieveable to him that a game with identical gameplay but a better quality of graphics than a rival would necessarily sell more units! I would personally say that the history of game development in the 90s is mostly a story of people trying to outdo Doom.
So we have a huge number of FPS games, all with the same basic premise: get to the exit, kill anything that moves. The easiest way that a game in the 90s could distinguish itself from the pack was by improved graphics. So the concentration, nay, reliance on continually improved graphics twisted and distorted the game industry. If you stated publically in the mid-90s that a game can be fun regardless of graphical realism, people would think you were mad. The same is still true today.
We jumped from accepting abstract representations to requiring graphical realism in a couple of years, and I don't think the world is better off for it. Games cost more and more money to develop, independent games are considered seriously niche markets, and the all-powerful realism stomps ever onward.
But I think the tide is about to turn. Doom3 today looks fantastic. There's still a long way to go before games can be considered indistinguishable from reality (actually, it's an infinitally long way to go - but that's a different discussion) but the incremental steps that are being taken with each generation are having less and less visible effect on the quality of the scene. Fine, so you walk up to a window in Doom3, and you can't see a faint reflection of yourself in it. Who cares? Light doesn't refract properly through water. So what?
I intuitively feel that we've almost reached the point at which the money invested in better quality graphics increases the revenue generated by an amount about equal to the original investment. After that, it no longer becomes economically feasible for increased graphical realism to matter. We'll never reverse the public's opinion that a game without realistic graphics isn't worth playing, but we will see all that money being ploughed into other areas of game development.
I do believe that Oblivion will necessarily feature much improved graphical realism over Morrowind, but I'm quietly confident that the following game probably will not.
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Charlie Dobbie
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Moderator of the Morrowind/Oblivion Forums= |
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Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:51 pm |
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wacko3
Village Leader
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 98
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ok i need you guys need to stop now your getting away from the purpose of this post
if your an old timer and prefere turn base or whatever those games were 10 years ago then WTF are you doing in oblivion's thread???????????????????
elder scrolls even ten years ago had this formula and it will never change
this thread was made to give and learn new info on oblivion and u made it a debate on a different subject
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Thanks to Piranha bytes and Bethesda we get our money's worth. Games shouldnt last less then 50hours pediod. Im out |
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Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:27 am |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
quote:
Originally posted by wacko3
ok i need you guys need to stop now your getting away from the purpose of this post
if your an old timer and prefere turn base or whatever those games were 10 years ago then WTF are you doing in oblivion's thread???????????????????
elder scrolls even ten years ago had this formula and it will never change
this thread was made to give and learn new info on oblivion and u made it a debate on a different subject
Well it was little bit off-topic, but this is discussion forum after all :]. |
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Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:08 pm |
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Fez
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 08 Dec 2001
Posts: 240
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Turn based is hardly dead. 
You'd have to ignorant to think that. There are TB games still being made and by large development houses.
Danicek is right that the whole point is discussion, and telling him to go because he's older than you is silly.
The Elder Scrolls games have changed a lot over the years, so claiming "elder scrolls even ten years ago had this formula and it will never change" is impossible, unless you have a magic crystal ball that lets you see the future.
Back on to the topic at hand, I am with the "old-timer" crowd, in that games focus too much on light bloom and jiggletech, rather than decent dialogue, stories or game mechanics. Games often end up just nice engines and very little else. The young kids are often easily swayed by something shiny and look no further than the surface. The publishers know they can make money though when these kids nag their parents into buying them these games, so adults end up with something poor and shallow.
MY suggestion to those who miss the old days is try out some indie games. Commercial releases have been disappointing over recent years, to say the least.
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“Everyone’s a girl when they’re face down.” |
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Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:37 am |
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Vempyre
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 29
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| My wish list for Oblivion... |
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This is part of my wish list for Oblivion:
1) More ways and official ways to get houses.(without necessarly having to kill or steal one)
2) Gambling places where we could gamble gold and stuff.( A huge medieval casino  )
3) A huge cemetary (don't people die once in a while on this land)
4) Underwater caves
5) All kinds of jobs to get hired if one wants to sit back for a while in a town and gather gold and stuff and maybe a house.
6) Dating people and get married when someones appreciation is high enough, divorce if it falls to a certain point
7) Being able to sommon a variety of creatures
More guilds to join
9) Being a vampire would be kind of a secret society without no one else knowing it and not being attacked or set aside , besides getting discovered by someone by doing vampire stuff you shouldn't have done.
10) Seeing the view and the whole ride when one travels with the silt stider.
11) A amd 64 version
12) Horror elements
13) More NPC's interacting with each other
14) 4 Seasons(games always look cool in winter), celebrations, town party.
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All you need to know to make money online |
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Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:46 am |
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wacko3
Village Leader
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 98
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if i may add lolllllllllll
bathroooms!!!!!!!!!
well i mean there is never any in games... ok there was is like deus ex and some other games but i mean
i dotn recall going in a house in a RPG and seeing one.... now i know you'll tell me they didnt have that at the time true ...but at least make a little toilet shack behing the house or something lolllllllllll
i had an idea that i think i posted in somer thread here but never got feedback for it
again just a small detail but a my way to a town if its getting late and i wanna camp...would be nice to actually have to find soem rocks to put into a circle and then to pick up wood ,,, or just wack it off the trees...with the havok engine that'd possible..... then start the fire up and sllep on a wolf hide that i would have taken from the poor beast that was unofrtunate to be im my way
and as for your more NPCs interacting with each other you'll be pleased to know that its the case...full voice acting and if you go to pub you'll be able to ease=drop on a conversation to learn stuff.... real full conversation between NPCs !!!! wow
and also if u happen to walk by a NPC they will actually turn to you by themslef and start talking if they have something to tell you ....The NPCs will be life like just the same as in HL2 where their eye stays on you and turn around if you move
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Thanks to Piranha bytes and Bethesda we get our money's worth. Games shouldnt last less then 50hours pediod. Im out
Last edited by wacko3 on Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:39 pm |
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wacko3
Village Leader
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 98
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Fez says: The Elder Scrolls games have changed a lot over the years, so claiming "elder scrolls even ten years ago had this formula and it will never change" is impossible, unless you have a magic crystal ball that lets you see the future.
Your mising the point here man .... i was talking in term of major change, like leaving the first person view behind and go in a totally different way ( isometric view point&click)
Todd Howard said that first person RPG is much more imersive and he wouldnt see the franchise going another way. Im not quoting him so dont go and try to find that exact sentence, but thats what he meant.
There is gonna be changes. I think one big change is the combat system where its gonna be fast paced and no roll dice. You wont be able to just stand there and swing. I think the amount of damage will be determined with the skill level of both fighters of course.... so its not looking too good for all you old timers lolllllllllllll. Your actually gonna need skill and reflexes to fight BUT, ( and i dont mean disrespect cuz even i im not a super good gamer), there is gonna be the possibility to go through the game without even using your sowrd once. Now this was a quote from Todd in the march issue of PC gamer. We all know they are working with a guy from the thieves series,
so if combat is too hard for u guys there is the thieft way and also the mage way. Cuz magic is gonna have a full make over and you'll be able to use only that if you want
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Thanks to Piranha bytes and Bethesda we get our money's worth. Games shouldnt last less then 50hours pediod. Im out
Last edited by wacko3 on Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:48 pm |
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Fez
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 08 Dec 2001
Posts: 240
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Could you please try to use some punctuation and formatting in your posts? This isn't IRC or a messenger service, so it's better if you write things out properly so everyone can read it easily. Consider it good manners, and it makes you look more credible.
They are still making and planning to make turn based games and games with isometric viewpoints. Bethesda is not the only developer in the world.
All-action games are not all that is left, and the combat in the Elder Scrolls games was crap anyway.
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“Everyone’s a girl when they’re face down.” |
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Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:44 am |
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wacko3
Village Leader
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 98
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
Could you please try to use some punctuation and formatting in your posts? This isn't IRC or a messenger service, so it's better if you write things out properly so everyone can read it easily. Consider it good manners, and it makes you look more credible.
They are still making and planning to make turn based games and games with isometric viewpoints. Bethesda is not the only developer in the world.
All-action games are not all that is left, and the combat in the Elder Scrolls games was crap anyway.
Well most people get it anyways, just have to turn your brain up a notch lolll jk.
BTW im french that might explain it  . But yeah ill try and make it easier on you guys.
Might not be irc or messenger but its not a paper for school either ya know. hehe
PS. I reedited my previous post . hope its better now.
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Thanks to Piranha bytes and Bethesda we get our money's worth. Games shouldnt last less then 50hours pediod. Im out |
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Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:08 pm |
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Fez
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 08 Dec 2001
Posts: 240
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---Mod editted--
You made your point--no need to be obnoxious about it. For the record, your post had several grammatical errors, so you can stow the condescension.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
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“Everyone’s a girl when they’re face down.” |
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Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:24 am |
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cecirdr
Head Merchant
Joined: 14 May 2002
Posts: 66
Location: Newport, OR USA |
quote:
Originally posted by wacko3
There is gonna be changes. I think one big change is the combat system where its gonna be fast paced and no roll dice. You wont be able to just stand there and swing. I think the amount of damage will be determined with the skill level of both fighters of course.... so its not looking too good for all you old timers lolllllllllllll. Your actually gonna need skill and reflexes to fight BUT, ( and i dont mean disrespect cuz even i im not a super good gamer), there is gonna be the possibility to go through the game without even using your sowrd once. Now this was a quote from Todd in the march issue of PC gamer. We all know they are working with a guy from the thieves series,
so if combat is too hard for u guys there is the thieft way and also the mage way. Cuz magic is gonna have a full make over and you'll be able to use only that if you want
Well, here's hoping that they come up with a non-combat way to play the game or great magic system if that's the case. I'm another old timer that played MW. The combat system was dull, true, but at least the ability of my character to connect and do damage was related to *his or her* skills and not mine. Without dice rolls and the ability to influence the probablility of certain rolls appearing, then role playing isn't about creating a character different that I am in this meager "normal" life of mine. Instead it's ME trying to hack my way through the "bad guys". To me, that's not role playing. That's lil ole me trying to be something I'm not; which is fast, nimble, and physically precise.
If Oblivion is pure action for the combat mechanics...I'll really stink at playing it and probably never even get outta the first town without getting killed.
Ceci |
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Mon May 23, 2005 2:00 am |
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Scoundrel
Head Merchant
Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 60
Location: Istanbul, Turkey |
You are right. The MW style of combat was good. I dont want to see something else, especially Dungeon Lord style... 
But ofcourse I am open to new stuff about the magic system, which I didnt like a lot in MW...
Also I would be happy to see if the map is giant and the transportation is convenient.
I hope the storyline is as good as MW. ( without plotholes, nitpicks )
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Right makes might! |
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Wed Jun 08, 2005 1:53 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
MW Combat was a joke.
If they can get it to be more like Gothic, where the characters stats has a huge effect on how well you fight, BUT you as the player still have to actualy DO the fighting, then that would be wonderful.
At the very least have the weapon feel as though its hitting something this time...
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Wed Jun 08, 2005 2:02 pm |
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weirdo2590
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 251
Location: Look behind you |
i wanna see btter combat with swords piging off armour and dizzynes!!!! 
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# It's a badger, badger, badger, badger, badger, badger badger, badger, badger, badger, badger,badger.
Mushrom, Mushroom.....# |
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Sat Jun 11, 2005 8:31 am |
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