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Kalia
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 30
Location: Arizona |
| Oblivion & the Resurgence of Western RPGs @ 1 Up |
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1 Up is running a thought provoking article about how Oblivion is a breath of fresh air for western-style cRPGs. <blockquote><em>Western RPGs focus on the characters, and the world around them is a tool to let the player-as-character do and see more. Eastern RPGs focus on the events unfolding around the characters, and how the characters affect the world around them. Western RPGs are based on the experience of tabletop role-playing games, limited only by the imaginations of the players and the game master, where Eastern RPGs are more re-creations of traditional storytelling. Oblivion has taken huge strides toward meeting fans of MMOs halfway by building A.I. that really lives alongside the player and ensuring that the actual missions are easily pursued. But is that enough to bring people back to the single-player PC RPG? Are enough people tired of running Molten Core or getting a boot squad together to get their advanced job to give a single-player game a chance? We'll see if Oblivion is a successful experiment or a last, nostalgic nod to the past when The Elder Scrolls V is released and we see if it's got a multiplayer mode. </em></blockquote>Read the rest <a href="http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=0&cId=3148996" target="_blank">here</a> and comment on our forums. |
Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:20 am |
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I didn't know the western RPG needed saving. BG2, planescape, wizardry 8, and tehcnically gothic and Gothic 2 (Same design scheme, really)
Seems it's already going strong to me. I dunno, maybe I'm not informed enough?  |
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Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:21 am |
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JDR13
Magister of the Light
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 376
Location: Michigan, United States |
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
I didn't know the western RPG needed saving. BG2, planescape, wizardry 8, and tehcnically gothic and Gothic 2 (Same design scheme, really)
Seems it's already going strong to me. I dunno, maybe I'm not informed enough? :rplaugh:
I agree. Western RPGs have been strong for at least the last 5 years now. People are finally getting tired of Japanese anime style graphics and storyline. |
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Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:33 am |
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I've always thought of western RPGs as RPGs, and eastern RPGs as adventure games mislabeled by an uninformed newer generation. I'm a crabby old man. |
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Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:57 am |
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Priest4hire
Head Merchant
Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 52
Location: Slocan, BC |
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
I've always thought of western RPGs as RPGs, and eastern RPGs as adventure games mislabeled by an uninformed newer generation. I'm a crabby old man.
Not possible since, by definition, an adventure game can not use combat as its primary gameplay device. Adventure games are built on puzzle solving. Nor was it the 'newer generation' that made the label. The JRPGs are directly built off of Western RPGs; namely the Wizardry series and the Ultima series. In fact, Wizardry still lives on in Japan with new titles coming out regularly.
I don't think Western RPGs need saving so much although it does seem that rogue-likes and action/RPGs rule the day. It is really hard to find classic party based CRPGs from the west these days. Even Oblivion has edged a little closer to the action/RPG side.
_________________
Watch your back. Shoot straight. Conserve ammo. And never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.
Grammaton Dragon
-==(UDIC)==- |
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Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:31 am |
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doctor_kaz
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 108
Location: West Virginia, USA |
The Western RPG didn't need saving per se, but the single player RPG most definitely did. Hopefully, Oblivion has recharged that genre. |
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Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:00 pm |
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JDR13
Magister of the Light
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 376
Location: Michigan, United States |
quote:
Originally posted by Priest4hire
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
I've always thought of western RPGs as RPGs, and eastern RPGs as adventure games mislabeled by an uninformed newer generation. I'm a crabby old man.
Not possible since, by definition, an adventure game can not use combat as its primary gameplay device. Adventure games are built on puzzle solving. Nor was it the 'newer generation' that made the label. The JRPGs are directly built off of Western RPGs; namely the Wizardry series and the Ultima series. In fact, Wizardry still lives on in Japan with new titles coming out regularly.
I don't think Western RPGs need saving so much although it does seem that rogue-likes and action/RPGs rule the day. It is really hard to find classic party based CRPGs from the west these days. Even Oblivion has edged a little closer to the action/RPG side.
Not sure where you get your information, but very few Japanese RPG's are rooted in Western culture. The vast majority of JRPG's are console games with a very heavy anime influence. Anime itself is Japanese in origin. I've played many JRPG's starting with the NES, and continuing with the SNES, Playstation and PS2. As well as all the SEGA systems. I have yet to come across a JRPG that was anything similar to Wizardry or Ultima. |
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Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:22 pm |
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10Ktrolls
Village Dweller
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 23
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As Priest4Hire already said, alot of rpgs were adapted by the Japanese (Dungeon Master, Wizardry, etc.). These games often had spin-offs that were only published in the asian sphere. The anime crap came later... |
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Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:06 pm |
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JDR13
Magister of the Light
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 376
Location: Michigan, United States |
quote:
Originally posted by 10Ktrolls
As Priest4Hire already said, alot of rpgs were adapted by the Japanese (Dungeon Master, Wizardry, etc.). These games often had spin-offs that were only published in the asian sphere. The anime crap came later...
.....and crap it is (90% of it anyways) |
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Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:50 am |
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Priest4hire
Head Merchant
Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 52
Location: Slocan, BC |
quote:
Originally posted by JDR13
Not sure where you get your information, but very few Japanese RPG's are rooted in Western culture. The vast majority of JRPG's are console games with a very heavy anime influence. Anime itself is Japanese in origin. I've played many JRPG's starting with the NES, and continuing with the SNES, Playstation and PS2. As well as all the SEGA systems. I have yet to come across a JRPG that was anything similar to Wizardry or Ultima.
Other than the fact that Yuji Horii has outright stated he got the idea for Dragon Quest from, and was a big fan of, Ultima and Wizardry? Almost the entire gameplay basics of the Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, and Phantasy Star games are ripped right out of Ultima and Wizardy. Wizardry itself is vastly more popular in Japan with titles on almost every console in existence. Wizardry: Tale of the Forsaken Land is not only a classic party-based dungeon crawler but it's more akin to the classic Wizardry titles than Wizardy 8 was. Sure, anime has been a big influence in terms of art style, story and the like. But mechanics were built right off of the western RPGs. Hell, the Final Fantasy series has a spell called Ultima and one of them has a boss called Exodus How more blatant a homage do you need than that.
PS. Anime drew heavily on Western animation. That's where they got the big eyes from. 
quote:
.....and crap it is (90% of it anyways)
No more than any other medium. I couldn't count the number of Western RPGs that used the 'collect the x thingys to overcome the grand foozle' storyline. Everything has its good and bad points.
_________________
Watch your back. Shoot straight. Conserve ammo. And never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.
Grammaton Dragon
-==(UDIC)==- |
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Sat Apr 01, 2006 4:24 am |
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JDR13
Magister of the Light
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 376
Location: Michigan, United States |
quote:
Originally posted by Priest4hire
Other than the fact that Yuji Horii has outright stated he got the idea for Dragon Quest from, and was a big fan of, Ultima and Wizardry? Almost the entire gameplay basics of the Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, and Phantasy Star games are ripped right out of Ultima and Wizardy. Wizardry itself is vastly more popular in Japan with titles on almost every console in existence. Wizardry: Tale of the Forsaken Land is not only a classic party-based dungeon crawler but it's more akin to the classic Wizardry titles than Wizardy 8 was. Sure, anime has been a big influence in terms of art style, story and the like. But mechanics were built right off of the western RPGs. Hell, the Final Fantasy series has a spell called Ultima and one of them has a boss called Exodus How more blatant a homage do you need than that.
PS. Anime drew heavily on Western animation. That's where they got the big eyes from. ;)
.
Congratulations! You managed to name a single Japanese game developer out of thousands! He mentions that one game that he was a part of had some insprirations from Wizardry and Ultima and you come to the conclusion that all JRPG's are "directly built off of Western RPGs". That also means that you assume that Westerners were RPG gaming long before anyone in Japan?
....mmm I would love to see some research that backs up your hypothesis.
Sure, there are some JRPG's that have Western influences, just like there are
some Western games that have Japanese influence. But give the Japanese more credit than that, they are a very creative culture and they have their own style. |
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Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:05 pm |
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abbaon
Head Merchant
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 64
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quote:
Originally posted by JDR13
Congratulations! You managed to name a single Japanese game developer out of thousands! He mentions that one game that he was a part of had some insprirations from Wizardry and Ultima and you come to the conclusion that all JRPG's are "directly built off of Western RPGs". That also means that you assume that Westerners were RPG gaming long before anyone in Japan?
....mmm I would love to see some research that backs up your hypothesis.
Congratulations! You don't know anything. This forces you to defend your indefensible position with sarcasm instead of facts. Of course Western developers created the first CRPGs. See for yourself.
quote:
Sure, there are some JRPG's that have Western influences, just like there are some Western games that have Japanese influence. But give the Japanese more credit than that, they are a very creative culture and they have their own style.
Have the Aikido and Japanese lessons started to work yet? Can you feel yourself turning Japanese? |
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:46 am |
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Priest4hire
Head Merchant
Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 52
Location: Slocan, BC |
quote:
Originally posted by JDR13
Congratulations! You managed to name a single Japanese game developer out of thousands! He mentions that one game that he was a part of had some insprirations from Wizardry and Ultima and you come to the conclusion that all JRPG's are "directly built off of Western RPGs". That also means that you assume that Westerners were RPG gaming long before anyone in Japan?
....mmm I would love to see some research that backs up your hypothesis.
Sure, there are some JRPG's that have Western influences, just like there are
some Western games that have Japanese influence. But give the Japanese more credit than that, they are a very creative culture and they have their own style.
Well, if you're talking CRPGs, as in RPGs on electronic platforms, then yeah, the west was at it longer. The first Western CRPG that still exists is dnd from back in 1974. Akalabeth dates back to '79 while Ultima I and Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord came out in '81. Dragon Quest was released in '86.
Certainly though I never said all of them. I'm sure by now most JRPGs are inspired by other JRPGs. The subgenre is well established after all, and it's not like it stopped evolving. Nor did I ever suggest the Japanese aren't creative. Of course they have their own style and of course that has heavily influenced JRPGs from the start. But consider this quote from Hayao Miyazaki:
" Actually our work depends on how much we can appropriate from other people's work! Painting, music, films, literature . . . it's all grist for the mill."
Back when the JRPGs were just getting started with Dragon Quest and the other early games why wouldn't the creators have used the mechanics of existing CRPGs? Garriott had solved many of the basic issues with CRPGs such as how to deal with combat, the world, NPC interaction and the like. It was Gariott that created the repeating tile-based graphics engine. So JRPGs were thus built off of the Western CRPGs. They kept building which is why the two sides are so different, but there is no question where the roots lie.
Next thing you'll tell me that the way the main characters of Record of Lodoss War just happen to line up with the classic D&D character classes was a wild coincidence.
_________________
Watch your back. Shoot straight. Conserve ammo. And never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.
Grammaton Dragon
-==(UDIC)==- |
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:37 am |
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JDR13
Magister of the Light
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 376
Location: Michigan, United States |
quote:
Originally posted by abbaon
quote:
Originally posted by JDR13
Congratulations! You managed to name a single Japanese game developer out of thousands! He mentions that one game that he was a part of had some insprirations from Wizardry and Ultima and you come to the conclusion that all JRPG's are "directly built off of Western RPGs". That also means that you assume that Westerners were RPG gaming long before anyone in Japan?
....mmm I would love to see some research that backs up your hypothesis.
Congratulations! You don't know anything. This forces you to defend your indefensible position with sarcasm instead of facts. Of course Western developers created the first CRPGs. See for yourself. [End quote]
See for myself? See what? Is there supposed to be a link there? You run your mouth and then leave absolutely nothing to show.
quote:
Sure, there are some JRPG's that have Western influences, just like there are some Western games that have Japanese influence. But give the Japanese more credit than that, they are a very creative culture and they have their own style.
Have the Aikido and Japanese lessons started to work yet? Can you feel yourself turning Japanese?
How old are you? You've added nothing to this discussion at all other than insults. If you have nothing intelligent to say then don't post. |
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:09 pm |
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JDR13
Magister of the Light
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 376
Location: Michigan, United States |
quote:
Originally posted by Priest4hire
Well, if you're talking CRPGs, as in RPGs on electronic platforms, then yeah, the west was at it longer. The first Western CRPG that still exists is dnd from back in 1974. Akalabeth dates back to '79 while Ultima I and Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord came out in '81. Dragon Quest was released in '86.
Certainly though I never said all of them. I'm sure by now most JRPGs are inspired by other JRPGs. The subgenre is well established after all, and it's not like it stopped evolving. Nor did I ever suggest the Japanese aren't creative. Of course they have their own style and of course that has heavily influenced JRPGs from the start. But consider this quote from Hayao Miyazaki:
" Actually our work depends on how much we can appropriate from other people's work! Painting, music, films, literature . . . it's all grist for the mill."
Back when the JRPGs were just getting started with Dragon Quest and the other early games why wouldn't the creators have used the mechanics of existing CRPGs? Garriott had solved many of the basic issues with CRPGs such as how to deal with combat, the world, NPC interaction and the like. It was Gariott that created the repeating tile-based graphics engine. So JRPGs were thus built off of the Western CRPGs. They kept building which is why the two sides are so different, but there is no question where the roots lie.
Next thing you'll tell me that the way the main characters of Record of Lodoss War just happen to line up with the classic D&D character classes was a wild coincidence.
Slow down Priest4hire. If you're going to start listing dates then at least get them right. D&D was first published in 1974 true, but we're talking about CRPG's here. The first D&D CRPG was the original Pool of Radiance for the Commodore 64 in 1988. And why do you make it a point to mention the fact that Dragon Quest was released in 1986? Was Dragon Quest the first ever Japanese RPG? Somehow I doubt it was.
You make a lot of valid points with your arguments. Some are not so valid.
I wouldn't go so far as to say JRPG's roots lie in Western civilization just because Richard Garriott may have been the first to use a repeating tile-based graphics engine. Some of the early JRPG's, such as a few of the ones that were made for the original NES, no doubt took some ideas from games like Ultima and Wizardry. I agree with that.
But you're talking about game mechanics. I'm thinking more about feel and atmosphere, in which case Eastern and Western RPG's are quite a bit different.
*Quote*
Western RPGs focus on the characters, and the world around them is a tool to let the player-as-character do and see more. Eastern RPGs focus on the events unfolding around the characters, and how the characters affect the world around them. Western RPGs are based on the experience of tabletop role-playing games, limited only by the imaginations of the players and the game master, where Eastern RPGs are more re-creations of traditional storytelling [End Quote]
I'm also not saying one is superior to the other, although from my previous comments it should be obvious that I prefer Western style. |
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:28 pm |
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