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NeverDark
Village Leader
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 91
Location: Virtual Reality aka Life |
| Role Playing without leveling up? |
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Do you think it would be possible? Our team of amateurs (which consists of myself  ) is currently working on an RPG which would implement rules never seen before. You create you character like you do in most of the RPGs, by adjusting your stats and skills. The difference is that you don't get the so called experience points and thus don't gain "levels" as you progress through the game. There're alternative ways to increase your stats and skills, however. For example, if you're a mage you can boost you magic knowledge and intelligence by learning from teachers-magicians (assuming that your initial intelligence level is high enough to comprehend the studies, the teacher isn't angry at you and you can afford the education or willing to do something for it). Or you can loose some intelligence points PERMANENTLY if you keep getting hit in the head repeatedly (that's where your agility and strength come in handy). You could also alter certain stats TEMPORARILY by consuming potions (addiction, anyone?) or through other means (like meditation or magic spells for example). Or, by wearing artifacts (like magic armors or medallions) you could increase some of your basic stats for the time you wear the artifact.
This system, in my opinion, would provide many benefits compared to the systems used in most RPGs now.
First, it would eliminate the need to KILL (notice, it's KILL for any class you use, even if you wanna be a pacifist) inferior creatures, like rats or rabbits, or any other animals in general.
Second, it would eliminate the whole level of complexity from the game, that requires you to constantly tweak your stats and skills (you don't examine the percentage of your keyboard typing skill every couple hours, do you? Neither will your typing skills increase tenfold since the time you FINISHED your keyboard typing training AND PRACTICED the skill FOR A WHILE, by which I mean you're not a 6 yo boy when you create your character, you're a grown and trained warrior whose combat skills can be increased through training and not through killing of rats or birds or peasants repeatedly).
Third, it would provide a better Role Playing experience, since you would be required to find the ways to overcome obstacles, rather than wait till you become superman and ignore it altogether (i.e. no more early-game quests. e.g. a bouncer in your village bar would still prove to be a problem regardless of whether or not you killed 30 wolves in the local forest. Notice however, that majority of peasants in your village would be much weaker than you, due to malnutrition, lack of education, etc., but the bouncer is a different case - he's strong as a bull, and there's no way you'd become 10 times stronger than him after traveling and questing for some time, unless you found a really cool amulet of strength  )
Fourth, this system would encourage a replayability, since you wouldn't become a superman with all stats boosted to 99 and all skills at 100% by the end of the game. |
Sun May 04, 2003 5:45 pm |
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Delo
City Guard
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 125
Location: Center of the Universe |
Hmm... A very intriguing concept. I would love to try it. Although, It somewhat sounds like Enclave to me. No matter what, your character is as strong in the beggining as he is in the end (I know that isn't what you were describing in your game, but it was just a similarity). Your character pretty much just gets stronger through items and equipment. But the idea of going to trainers like you can in morrowind is an excellent idea, only now the prerequisite of intelligence or some other stat adds the feeling to the game that you have to work toward it. Very intriguing indeed. Would I be somewhat accurate to say that it would resemble a hybrid between Enclave and Morrowind, with some of its own unique elements?
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I don't do autographs. |
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Sun May 04, 2003 6:17 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
The idea is neat, but it isn't new. It was used in several pen&paper RPGs, primarily in Traveller.
The first edition of GDW's Traveller didn't have either experience points or levelling up... you created a character who started adventuring, and that was it. Since the character creation process involved many random elements, you could either get a seasoned veteran with many skills but ageing problems, a rookie with a few skills but a youthful physique, and anything in between. Acquiring new skills was mainly a plot device. With the second and subsequent editions (MegaTraveller and TNE... I'm not counting the fourth ed. here because it's basically a replica of the first one) the XP concept was introduced, however.
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Jaz |
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Sun May 04, 2003 6:21 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
Well, character development is what makes a game fun for me, and it sounds like your system will make character growth much more difficult. Just my opinion, and I might be misunderstanding your plan to boot...
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=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
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RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Sun May 04, 2003 7:14 pm |
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NeverDark
Village Leader
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 91
Location: Virtual Reality aka Life |
You will be developing your character (to some extent), but the power gaming won't longer be a priority. Instead of maintaining tables of data you'll get to enjoy the exploration and the interaction with NPCs. RPG and adventuring genres have become greatly stereotyped over the years, people tend to think that a good RPG has to have thousands of statistics which change dynamically, and that a good adventuring game should be based around item manipulation and puzzle solving. Nowadays, many people (including myself   ) are affected by so-called (I called it so ) Tamagotchi syndrome: manipulating with numbers (stats) and "growing" your character is VERY addictive. Many concentrate on stats improvement and forget about the actual gaming story.
Now, about the training process... It will indeed be somewhat similar to Morrowind's training system (but not M&M series). That is, a trainer (assuming there's one and that you find him) could agree to teach you if you have all necessary prerequisites. If he thinks that you won't be able to handle the training because some stats are too low, you're out of luck and will have to find a way to boost your stats before you can start training. The training process should be as interactive as possible, for example, after you already paid for the teaching, you'll have to pass the exam, which might include a killing of practice monster or defeating a teacher or another student in a friendly fight (the possibilities are endless). If you fail, your skills (or stats) are not improved, you don't get your money back, and you'll need to train again.
I think you're right that the concept is not new and might've been introduced in the old Pen and Paper games. But you gotta agree that not many computer games (hardly any) use it these days. |
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Sun May 04, 2003 7:52 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
I agree.
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Jaz |
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Sun May 04, 2003 8:25 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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I have seen that kind of stuff before in games like Darklands (ugh, HORRIBLE game BTW), The Quest of Glory series, Deus Ex, Betrayal at Krondor (also UGH) and System Shock (kinda) and in pnp rpgs like Eon, Western etc.
I've NEVER liked the idea that you REQUIRE trainers to advance, you should be able to learn by yourself if you wish. SURE, it would be a longer and harder way, but it would be cheaper than having to hire tutors.
But honestly, you should be able to increase your stats because that's the way it is in real life, and numbers and stats give a nice overview over your character, so you can feel in-control of what's happening to him. Leveling just provides a simple and user-friendly way to do it.
You DON'T HAVE to kill creatures just because it's exp and level based. It's just a way to gain the exps. It all depends on how the game is built. If you have lots of quests and such, you wouldn't need to put yourself in danger by fighting creatures.
As for stuff like:
quote:
Originally posted by NeverDark
Third, it would provide a better Role Playing experience, since you would be required to find the ways to overcome obstacles, rather than wait till you become superman and ignore it altogether (i.e. no more early-game quests. e.g. a bouncer in your village bar would still prove to be a problem regardless of whether or not you killed 30 wolves in the local forest. Notice however, that majority of peasants in your village would be much weaker than you, due to malnutrition, lack of education, etc., but the bouncer is a different case - he's strong as a bull, and there's no way you'd become 10 times stronger than him after traveling and questing for some time, unless you found a really cool amulet of strength )
Now, if I went out fighting wolves or monsters, becoming more skilled in fighting etc. Don't you think I would have a pretty easy time taking care of a bouncer? Of course he could pose a problem much like in ANY RPG.
Why shouldn't you be able to become as strong as (or stronger than) him, after journeing all day long, fighting creatures constantly?
I WOULD NOT call that a better roleplaying experience; not beeing able to train yourself.
As for numbah 4, I have seldom seen an RPG that gives you all max stats and make you a superman. Sorry.
An RPG's replayability is NOT based on leveling and exp (well, depends partially on how many classes and skills you have), but by choices presented to the player in adventures and quests, story, different endings and so forth.
Thanks... |
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Sun May 04, 2003 8:36 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
You did develop your character in Deus Ex and System Shock (at least). It was development by cyberware, but it was development=change for the better. In good old Traveller you didn't develop for the better, with the exception of having more stories to tell after an adventure - most of the time you left character creation as an old age pensioner. Still, for me it was one of the best RPGing experiences ever - my personal rule for a good RPGing experience is 'the less stats, the better', anyway.
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Jaz |
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Sun May 04, 2003 8:56 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaz
You did develop your character in Deus Ex and System Shock (at least). It was development by cyberware, but it was development=change for the better. In good old Traveller you didn't develop for the better, with the exception of having more stories to tell after an adventure - most of the time you left character creation as an old age pensioner. Still, for me it was one of the best RPGing experiences ever - my personal rule for a good RPGing experience is 'the less stats, the better', anyway.
Yes, but you did develop in, for example: Deus Ex, without the use of levels. Although you had experience...
Didn't Traveller had any skills you could increase? Isn't it better to have an RPG that provides both new stories and a character you can improve by giving him new items/practicing his skills? Thus giving you an immersion in your character? |
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Sun May 04, 2003 9:07 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
Increasing skills was possible, but during the first ed. it was always story-related (like discovering a forbidden research facility where you could be tested for psionical abilities etc.)...and if you used skills without having been taught these very skills (which was a possibility), you had the chance to increase them after a while.
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Jaz |
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Sun May 04, 2003 9:11 pm |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
Sounds interesting to me. I have always had a basic problem with Kill=Exp. How does killing rats make me a better thief? Yes, there needs to be rewards for skill use and training as in MW and there should be some reward for completing quests, but how do you translate those to benefits for your character? I prefer to find non-violent solutions where possible, but in most games, the rewards are a lot less. The only game where the inverse was true, was PS-T. I loved the fact that negotiating a peaceful settlement got me 1000Exp, while killing the annoying character only got me 100. I know levels are useful, but the whole structure of them annoys me. It changes the focus of the game from RP'ing a character, to how do I get to the next level so I can get...........!!
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Mon May 05, 2003 2:54 am |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
This sounds exactly like the system they use in UO. In my oppinion, that is the most perfect and natural RPG system I have ever encountered.
No such thing as levels, you can just get a trainer to teach you up to a certain level, or you can just practice the skills yourself by actually using it.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Mon May 05, 2003 3:45 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by Chekote
No such thing as levels, you can just get a trainer to teach you up to a certain level
So are there levels or not? Sorry, just being difficult. 
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=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Mon May 05, 2003 4:02 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
That's just being normal for you dte!!
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If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Mon May 05, 2003 6:49 am |
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Dwango
Head Merchant
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 68
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Okay, so what I get is you are totally doing away with experience and with leveling. So, would the numbers usually associated with levels (to hit, improved saves, better defense, etc.) be merged in with your skills? I.E. You improve your ability to use a sword, so you would gain better to hit only with a sword. Or, you study fire defense with trainer, improving your saves for damage from fire?
Now your base stats would always be the same, with no improvements. So you can get skilled, but you won't ever be any stronger or smarter or luckier. But, would there be levels in the skills? If you improve a skill, wouldn't you be tracking the level of that skill? That might prove more complicated than levels, tracking the many skills you have. I'm not against that, because I love the MW style of skill growth through use, but I wouldn't claim it is simpler than mere leveling.
Finally, if you never improve any stats OR skills, then is it still an RPG? You would have your base statistics, which would change how you deal with a situation depending on those numbers. But you never get better, and so how would increasing challenges get dealt with? And does this transform the game into an adventure game with multiple puzzle solutions? I.E. Kill the monster if strong, go around the monster if dexterous, out-smart the monster if intelligent, etc.
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-Dwango |
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Mon May 05, 2003 4:28 pm |
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