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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Some feel if the rolls are perfectly random then battles are too easy in a CRPG. There comes a point in D&D where all you need is a 2 or higher. What's the fun in combat if 9/10 times you hit the boss monster?
Not that bad streaks don't happen with normal dice, of course. Many is a night where I've seen one of my players not roll anything above 10... except when he sits there rolling in frustration and 'using up' his high numbers before his turn.
POR2 was weighted. Some guy checked the game code and claimed it was anyways. I'm not a programmer so I don't know. All I know is that I rolled more 1's in POR2 than any other CRPG, and practically no 20s. I don't know/think TOEE is weighted. Still, the peasants are awfully lucky with their result 18 spot checks when I pick pocket them... one guy through four reloads rolled nothing less than a 17.
Time will tell.
You have to look at the big picture, though. If there are 20 rolls in the round then half of them should be above 10 and half below. There is NOTHING that will guarantee half of your PARTIES rolls will be above 10 or that half the monsters rolls will be below 10.
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Thu Sep 25, 2003 2:19 am |
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the mighty stamar
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 602
Location: arcata ca, humboldt county |
quote:
BTW, I'm playing Lionheart right now - finally I gave it a try while waiting for ToEE and imagine I'm not even entirely pissed off by it It is playable. At least for first 14 hours or something - as far as I got it yet.
I just tried to play lionheart and had to stop because i broke the main quest and would have to go way back
anyhow, compare the two games. TOEE blows lionheart away I think youll find. |
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Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:31 am |
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Ariel
Harmonious Angel
Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 432
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
Some feel if the rolls are perfectly random then battles are too easy in a CRPG. There comes a point in D&D where all you need is a 2 or higher. What's the fun in combat if 9/10 times you hit the boss monster?
Indeed, the fun would be gone, but either way, if battles are too easy in a CRPG then there must be something wrong with the system. There's no point in using "dice" in your calculations if they are weighted just like that, because the numbers would have no easily graspable meaning anymore. The chance of rolling a 20 on a D20 is supposed to be the same as rolling a 1 - 5%, and it's what one would expect. If it's not possible to implement P&P rules in a computer game decently, or in other words, if the rules don't translate well, then they should rather not be used in this medium.
I'm currently fiddling around with the character creation in Greyhawk. So far there are two things I don't understand.
1) Can somebody explain to me why you have to go through the process one step at a time, in a fixed order? Is it part of the D&D rules? Like, select alignment, then class, then portrait, then whatever? It has already been in NWN, that's why I'm asking. For some things it makes absolutely no sense and is very irritating in my opinion. Why can't I change the character's look later on? Or his / her voice or gender?
2) Why is the point - buy system so underpowered compared to rolling? If I put every stat on 10 I've already used up half of all available points, and I can bring one stat to 17, another to 14? and that's it. I roll once and have stats that would require twice as many buy-points (may be exaggerated). Ok, there's a chance that I would get less points to distribute if I don't reroll. Isn't there?
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Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:02 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by Arhiel
Indeed, the fun would be gone, but either way, if battles are too easy in a CRPG then there must be something wrong with the system. There's no point in using "dice" in your calculations if they are weighted just like that, because the numbers would have no easily graspable meaning anymore. The chance of rolling a 20 on a D20 is supposed to be the same as rolling a 1 - 5%, and it's what one would expect. If it's not possible to implement P&P rules in a computer game decently, or in other words, if the rules don't translate well, then they should rather not be used in this medium.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
I don't know why the point-buy is so different to the 'random' rolls but the point buy yields more realistic/reasonable results, that's for sure. I rolled a half-orc barb with 3x 18s last night and it's very tempting to keep him even though that's pretty over the top. I'll struggle with my conscience while the Kazaa version runs out and I wait for the real one! |
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Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:47 pm |
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the mighty stamar
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 602
Location: arcata ca, humboldt county |
Heres my party
human paladin
gnome bard
half elf druid
elf wizard
human sorcerer
I can say that overall this party is a first level failure
Pretty much unable to survive even the random encounters and get to level 2. Reloading constantly. the hp on most of the characters are too low, and no one except the druid has any first level healing.
So Im like walking towards a location, random encounter and injury... and unable to rest because i cant survive another encounter. So, walk back to homlet and heal.
To frustrating I would make sure you have a cleric as well as a druid or two clerics, just to save yourself start up time.
The bard is worthless on all fronts thus far lol because my paladin has 17 cha to talk to people with. I think this is a late game party I made so it will take its lumps. |
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Fri Sep 26, 2003 4:29 am |
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The Hurricane
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 299
Location: The Sword Coast |
Well, in iron mode I always have at least one stat that's below 10. You can only roll once and there is no buy mode. However, in normal mode it's rare I roll below 10. So this could be an indication of some fix. There seems to be balance in the game though, as I critical miss just as often as I critical hit.
quote:
Can somebody explain to me why you have to go through the process one step at a time, in a fixed order? Is it part of the D&D rules?
Well, in this case it's probably more of an orderly ease of use type of thing. You would want to choose your class first because that will be the focus of everything you're about to do. Because some classes only allow certain alignments, you choose that next. Then stats, because they effect everything else: skill bonuses, prerequisites for feats, etc. Then skills - to determine some of the feats you'll choose, then feats, then spells - feats like extend spell or spell focus [conjuration] would have an impact on what spells you would choose. As for gender, portrait, etc. I have no idea why they create a fixed order for those.
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Fri Sep 26, 2003 4:51 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
Stamar, to be honest, your level one party was not well thought out. Why do you have 2 spell casters? At level one they are virtually useless. Total waste of space. You need tanks and healers at level one. Later you can multi a tank to a caster at level 2. They'll survive and you don't really lose a great deal by missing out on one level of caster. provided you plan your character in advance. If you MUST have a level one caster, make it a sorc. I plan my parties for the entire campaign and it really helps.
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Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:38 am |
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stanthony
One Smart Dog
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Posts: 556
Location: Tallinn, Estonia |
I don't entirely agree. I'd say 2 tanks, a healer and 2 casters should work just fine. Theoretically 5 casters should do their work, too. Although, I haven't play ToEE yet, so these are just some thoughts... 
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Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:49 am |
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the mighty stamar
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 602
Location: arcata ca, humboldt county |
Well I didnt think about things such as you can add and remove characters as you go in the inn.
I guess what I should do, is add some clerics for now, until some of my characters level up, and then get rid of them and add my sorcerers back, if I want a spell casting party.
I want to see all of the spell effects so I made everyone a spellcaster of some sort. |
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Fri Sep 26, 2003 7:00 am |
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the mighty stamar
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 602
Location: arcata ca, humboldt county |
Hehe my guys are all level two now.
We developed a special tactic. Hide behind Elmo.
Elmo is a can of whoop ass. |
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Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:55 am |
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The Hurricane
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 299
Location: The Sword Coast |
quote:
Originally posted by stanthony
I don't entirely agree. I'd say 2 tanks, a healer and 2 casters should work just fine. Theoretically 5 casters should do their work, too. Although, I haven't play ToEE yet, so these are just some thoughts...
ToEE doesn't start you out easy. In the first dungeon you'll face an ogre that has greater cleave and at least a +7-9 primary attack bonus. Plus around 60-90 HPs. Five level 1 casters would easily get smashed.  I'm not saying it is impossible, probably a lot easier than iron mode, but difinitely a challenge. I have a fighter, monk, cleric, druid, and wizard (transmutater) I've found this combo to work extremely well so far. Oh, and I picked up ole Almo and Furnok just before entering the temple.
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Fri Sep 26, 2003 11:06 am |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
@Xen - Did I read what you'd written correctly, there is a demo out there?
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Fri Sep 26, 2003 1:26 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
There's a demo on Kazaa.
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Fri Sep 26, 2003 1:54 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
@val - I have never used Kazaa - do I need an account there? I popped in a little while ago to check the sight out and got lost in about 15 seconds, and did not feel like taking the time out to wade my way through all the words.
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Fri Sep 26, 2003 2:02 pm |
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Neo_Genesis
The Assassin
Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 3050
Location: The Netherlands |
(i'm not val but who cares  )
i don't think you need to register, it will use the same emailadres that you internet provider uses.
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Always wondering how it would be... |
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Fri Sep 26, 2003 2:15 pm |
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