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| Which do you prefer? |
| Non-stop action |
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5% |
[ 2 ] |
| Immersion and story |
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95% |
[ 38 ] |
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| Total Votes : 40 |
MageofFire
Griller of Molerats
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Monastery of Innos |
| Hack'n'slash against immersion and story |
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Should hack'n'slash games such as Diablo and Dungeon Siege still be considered RPGs? They have an incredible emphasis on combat, taking on hordes of enemies at a time. Some might consider these games shallow. Some might just consider them pure action games. Of couse, they are still considered RPGs by the gaming magazines, websites, etc. However, an RPG is supposed to mean character development and a story. A good RPG is supposed to immerse you in it's environment. It's also supposed to be open-ended to at least some degree. I'm not saying that these games aren't or don't necessarily have those things, I just want to hear what you guys think.
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Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:05 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
Good environment with NPC, weather, nice nature, mountains - this is very important. Mainly when people in this environment are really "living their lives".
However there are situations when I rather choose hack and slash style... |
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Wed Oct 08, 2003 6:10 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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An RPG is not "supposed" to have a good story, it's all about character-building and freedom.
"Hack'n'Slash" or "dungeon-raiding" is WAY more important than story. It's a great way to get you into the game, and make you feel as you're doing a differance. Plus, you get action, strategy, and all that. Adrenalin pumping rough'n'tumble is way more exciting than ploughing through an (often, as in not always) poor book substitute.
Games like Diablo 2 and Dungeon Siege beat many other RPGs in terms of character development, but due to the lack of freedom, I guess it's just a RPG-action hybrid.
A game like IceWind Dale 2, however, is way more of an RPG than most other games, because it gives you BOTH freedom and good character diversion/development. The fact that it also has great dungeon hacking only adds more.
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:29 pm |
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stanthony
One Smart Dog
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Posts: 556
Location: Tallinn, Estonia |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
A game like IceWind Dale 2, however, is way more of an RPG than most other games, because it gives you BOTH freedom and good character diversion/development. The fact that it also has great dungeon hacking only adds more.
Hexy, I have to point that there's a problem with this statement. First of all, I *love* IWD series. Just for the record. Then to the point. IWD2 has a nice character develpment, but it is just a little better than in BG, BG2 or original IWD. And this is mostly because of the DnD 3rd edition. I'd say it is not better than in NWN  Or in ToEE. Then, in terms of freedom IWD2 is nothing special. Not close to BG2, or BG. I'm not even talking about open-ended games such as Morrowind here. IWD2 is a good game, even great game, and perfect hack'n'slash, but it is not because of special character development or freedom IMO.
And moreover, I don't think RPGs are mainly about hacking and slashing things. They are about this plus many other things. Heck, even in my PnP sessions it mostly NOT about hack'n'slash.
However, I agree with Danicek - there are times for immersive role-play and there are times for killing stuff. Mountains and appropriate weather are always welcome in any situation, though 
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Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:07 pm |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
For me, the perfect RPG was PS-T. Nuff said!!
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Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:02 pm |
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Lannister
Head Merchant
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 61
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Well Hexy i could not agree less with you.
For me the most important point in RPG-playing is the Role-playing, that means that the game gives me the ability to play the role I envision for my character. The game which comes closest conc. that is Planescape Torment and after this the Fallout series then BG-series and then a long time nothing.
I couldnt care less about games like Dungeon Siege where everything is about optimizing your Character.
I am a Pen&Paper - Dungeon Master and in my Campaign the Real Role-Playing, that means playing a personality with all its highlight and its flaws is the most-important thing. I really dislike these optimizing-your-character-to-the-max-Types ( in Pen&Paper). Maybe a lot of people like to play these Diablo-Clones but these games are IMHO not Role-Playing-games. The only role you take on is that of a mindless killer. Period.
L. |
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Wed Oct 08, 2003 10:19 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
I voted for emersion/story because I don't really believe that games like DS or Diablo are RPG's (or maybe they're just not my kind of RPG). Combat rates higher on what I like more about an RPG than story/emersion. I just can't stand the "throw 7 million weak enemies at them" mentality. I like much less but a lot tougher combat in RPG's.
I like the "throw 7 million weak enemies at them" mentality for games like contra, and the top down plane shooters (or side view plane shooters), and all FPS's. I would hate to play an FPS with all head bosses. I like to mow down 500 creatures with full auto. I guess thats why I don't like the strategic shooters like Rainbow Six.
But, Rainbow Six is very popular, and so are Diablo and DS. So I guess I'm all backwards. |
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Thu Oct 09, 2003 2:32 am |
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Cm
Sentinel of Light
Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 5209
Location: Missouri USA |
If the story line and immersion suck, so does the game.
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Thu Oct 09, 2003 3:16 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Hexy, I have to point that there's a problem with this statement. First of all, I *love* IWD series. Just for the record. Then to the point. IWD2 has a nice character develpment, but it is just a little better than in BG, BG2 or original IWD. And this is mostly because of the DnD 3rd edition. I'd say it is not better than in NWN Or in ToEE. Then, in terms of freedom IWD2 is nothing special. Not close to BG2, or BG. I'm not even talking about open-ended games such as Morrowind here. IWD2 is a good game, even great game, and perfect hack'n'slash, but it is not because of special character development or freedom IMO.
Freedom means not only freedom to move around, but freedom of dialogue, questsolving etc. which IceWind Dale 2 delivers rather nicely. If you took that away, would IceWnd Dale be just as good? I don't think so!
The whole linearity of the world only adds to the dungeon-hack feel of the game, and it's nice to have sometimes.
Morrowind open ended? No... not really, except for the Bloodmoon expansion.
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Thu Oct 09, 2003 5:07 am |
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stanthony
One Smart Dog
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Posts: 556
Location: Tallinn, Estonia |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Freedom means not only freedom to move around, but freedom of dialogue, questsolving etc. which IceWind Dale 2 delivers rather nicely. If you took that away, would IceWnd Dale be just as good? I don't think so!
 And I think that exactly in these things IWD2 delivers nothing very exceptional, otherwise being a good game. BG had far more freedom of dialogue, questsolving etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
The whole linearity of the world only adds to the dungeon-hack feel of the game, and it's nice to have sometimes.
With this I agree. I believe that playing well-done linear hack'n'slash can be great fun, and I believe IWD2 is a muts-have for such a play. I onlu disagreed about characters/freedom.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Morrowind open ended? No... not really, except for the Bloodmoon expansion.
Why so? Especially compraing to IWD series, or any other Infinity game for that matter. And I honestly don't see how Bloodmoon adds to open-ended nature of the game.
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- Druids do not fight with metal weapons! Sit here, and you over here. Put the elbows of your right arms on the table...
- Arm-pulling? Get me back me pan!
R.A.Salvatore The Cleric Quintet. Canticle |
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Thu Oct 09, 2003 6:12 am |
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Cold_Brains
Village Dweller
Joined: 09 Jan 2002
Posts: 23
Location: Sydney, Australia |
I agree with MageofFire's original post. The appropriation of terms like RPG by monolithic commercial interests and the dumbing down of the concept of role playing, to the point where hack'n'slash rubbish can be advertised as 'role playing games', with consequences such as the Lord of the Rings being reduced to stupid junk (and yet still called 'role playing' by the servile, fawning press and lapped up by a public who simply aren't allowed to realise how much better it could be) sickens me. It's just another little piece of Orwellian language-colonisation and thought control, a product of unchecked capitalism. |
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Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:00 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
Wow.
All of the types have their place. At the end of the day games are a form of entertainment and as much as it isn't my taste there are an awful lot of people who are happily entertained by games such as Diablo. More power to them.
Is Diablo shallow? Yep. Action-oriented? Yep. Doesn't mean it's not a form of CRPG -- however lightweight that form might be.
Admittedly it's true that it's 'trendy' these days to say a game has 'RPG elements' but there's more genre-blending nowadays than ever before and marketing hyperbole has always - and always will - exist.
I like as much depth as I can get and for my own personal taste I quite agree with Lannister and MageofFire but just as we like "hardcore" CRPGs, why shouldn't there be a place for action-RPGs? |
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Thu Oct 09, 2003 9:53 am |
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Cold_Brains
Village Dweller
Joined: 09 Jan 2002
Posts: 23
Location: Sydney, Australia |
Dhruin, you make perfectly valid observations, but I think the point being raised by MageofFire is more subtle. No-one - Mage, I, or anyone else - is saying that action-rpgs or hacknslash or whatever don't have a right to be made, bought and played by whomever.
The point here is the *language* thing.
It's the way in which games are automatically *called* 'RPG', when they're nothing of the sort. And if you consider that the McDiablos are now RPGs - if you consider this a valid evolution of language, then there needs to be a new type of game description. Because the new-to-gaming public who think that RPG is this kind of instant reward, no thinking, no contemplation, action-fest is *robbed* from appreciating and enjoying what an RPG could (and I say should) be....immersion, experience, Role Playing...
And of course, as a consequence, the games that offer such deeper qualities at the expense of 'accessibility', don't sell, don't get made, and we don't get to play them. |
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Thu Oct 09, 2003 11:14 am |
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Cm
Sentinel of Light
Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 5209
Location: Missouri USA |
You hit it on the head.  
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=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Member of Worshippers of the Written Word=
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Thu Oct 09, 2003 11:27 am |
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