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stanthony
One Smart Dog
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Posts: 556
Location: Tallinn, Estonia |
Hmmm... indeed 
"Wild Thing" Muppet Show version 
_________________
- Druids do not fight with metal weapons! Sit here, and you over here. Put the elbows of your right arms on the table...
- Arm-pulling? Get me back me pan!
R.A.Salvatore The Cleric Quintet. Canticle |
Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:51 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
The comeback. You knew it was coming, right?
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
Yes, I am.
Well, at least you can admit it. The last person who decided to debate me over this topic didn't have the guts to admit it.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
I have no problem with committing petty theft from the labels of a multi-billion dollar industry who the well deserved reputation for screwing their own artists.
That's a poor excuse for your behavior.
"Mommy, I know I stole a pack of gum, but Tommy did too! So I shouldn't be punished! I'm justified in stealing it!"
Is the kid's mom going to buy that excuse? Not likely.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
Where it not for the fact that the artists get so very little from the sale of their CDs I would feel very different.
Oh really? Have you looked at the record contracts for the artists who created every single song you have downloaded? How do you know what their cut is?
Shall you also drive out of business all of the other people who worked to contribute to the recorded version of that song that you just downloaded? The sound techs, the people who make the CDs, the people who make the electronics used, the janitor who cleans the studio up after people trash it, and on and on? It's easy to slap a label on a company and conviently forget that the company is made up of a lot of people who work hard for their paychecks.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
Hence, I do not steal from hard working developers of video games, I do not steal the songs from local bands that I like that have not yet been signed by a major label, and I do not steal from movie studios even though I do feel that they exploit their own customers.
But you'll steal from all the poor Joes in the record industry simply because you precieve the companies they work for as being evil? There's a word that starts with an "h" that's springs to mind right about now. 
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
True, but what kind of thief?
There is only one definition of "thief".
Thief - One who steals
A thief is a person who is denying someone else their rights. Whether they be property rights or copyrights.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
Must there be such a zero tolerance policy that it cannot even be discussed at all?
What, do you have some pressing need to be shot down?
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
Must we pretend here that such a thing does not even exist?
I did not say that it doesn't exist. I just don't tolerate it. At all. Hmm... maybe that DnD alingment test was right, I am Lawful Good.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
And to ask a question, did the person who made the ‘Divinity’ template ask the permission of the maker of Divine Divinity for permission before it was made?
The person who created that template worked for Larian Studios and helped with the creation of Divine Divinity. Some of the devs from that company visit our site. If they had a problem with it, then I'm sure we would have gotten a cease and desist order.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
Do you ask the creators of Torment before you used your last avatar?
Ever hear of the fair use clause? My use of that picture did not degrade the value of the product Planescape: Torment. If anything, it was free advertising for the game. It was available for download off their old website.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
Or George Lucas before drawing and posting that picture you drew of Darth Maul on you own website?
Again, fair use clause. If I never attempt to sell the picture (which I created, I didn't steal it off a store shelf which is the equivilant of what you do when you download music where permission is not given and they are seeking to sell that product), I will not degrade the value of Mr. Lucas' product.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
Please keep in mind that my intention here is not meant as any kind of personal attack or retaliation, simply an attempt to point out the lines we draw.
I know, do you?
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
I myself like to dabble in the creation of fan-fiction, and as well intentioned as it is it is still the theft of intellectual property is it not?
That depends on if you are trying to sell it or if you are actively seeking to degrade the value of their product.
Downloading music off the internet is not legal nor is it moral.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
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Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:56 pm |
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stanthony
One Smart Dog
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Posts: 556
Location: Tallinn, Estonia |
quote:
Originally posted by Val
I did not say that it doesn't exist. I just don't tolerate it. At all. Hmm... maybe that DnD alingment test was right, I am Lawful Good.
Heh, and everyone here thought you were chaotic evil, right Val You can fool us, but you can't fool D&D rules. Nope 
EDIT: My poor English usage
_________________
- Druids do not fight with metal weapons! Sit here, and you over here. Put the elbows of your right arms on the table...
- Arm-pulling? Get me back me pan!
R.A.Salvatore The Cleric Quintet. Canticle |
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Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:08 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
That test is totally wrong, anyway  .
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Jaz |
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Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:13 pm |
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Managarm
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 27
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Forward to the post... I had to get up a few times while writing this so it might sound a little disjointed.
quote:
Originally posted by Val
The comeback. You knew it was coming, right?
I’d have been disappointed otherwise.
quote:
Originally posted by Val
What, do you have some pressing need to be shot down?
Not usually, but I was feeling very confrontational that day so who knows?
quote:
Originally posted by Val
That's a poor excuse for your behavior.
[Tommy]
Granted. I didn’t mean it as justification - it is certainly illegal - just as the reason why I, personally, don’t find it to be morally wrong. I am not saying it is morally right either, ie retribution for ridiculously high CD prices, - I always found that argument to be silly - just that I don’t believe my actions are of any moral consequence at all. It should probably be added that I when I say this I am not talking about anyone but myself. Ex. I would never try to speak for people that download entire albums, that is where I draw the line for myself, and I‘ll get to why later, if I like a band instead of just one catchy song then I want to know what else is on their album and will purchase it.
As for Mommy and Tommy, I think that depends on if it was the same pack of gum or not. If Tommy stole it from the store and [unnamed child] stole it from Tommy then [my] Mommy would probably say that it served him right. While that may still be wrong there is no way that I’m going to justify anything Mommy says.
Sorry just making a joke to myself. If you knew Mommy you’d probably find that hilarious.
quote:
Originally posted by Val
Oh really? Have you looked at the record contracts
Well now that wouldn’t legal.
Is there a smiley for ironic chuckle?
quote:
Originally posted by Val
...conviently forget that the company is made up of a lot of people who work hard for their paychecks.
But are they paid per sale, or are they hourly and salaried workers? Do they have profit sharing? And while you can call me mistrustful of large companies, when every week CNN is reporting that a CEO who just laid off a thousand workers gave himself a two or three million dollar bonus I don’t buy the line that petty theft costs people their jobs and well deserved raises, I lay that blame on misuse of existing company funds.
quote:
Originally posted by Val
There's a word that starts with an "h" that's springs to mind right about now.
Ouch! Low blow, somebody call the ref.
Only one dictionary term, but I still say it is subjective because stealing is subjective. I.e. does loaning a book to a friend count as theft? The friend is getting to, hopefully, enjoy the work without paying anything to the author or publisher. Is this not the exact same thing that people do when they download entire albums. Isn’t library:books the same as internet:MP3s?
Ok ya got me on fair use and I didn’t know that the template designer had something to do with the deving company. The avatar comment may have been a low one too, so I apologize for it.
Now with "Fair Use," we get to the heart of the issue! The part that if it could be proven one way or the other would make the entire rest of the argument a mute(sp?) point. The key part of the fair use issue here is "does it deprive the copyright holder of income?" MP3s both increase and decrease sales at the same time, so which one is greater, the up or the down? True record sales are down, but is it because of MP3s, or because of more albums being unoriginal and/or uninteresting? Well, nobody knows for sure and nobody can prove it either way.
Let’s go back to the book examples again. It is not at all uncommon for authors/publishers to release sample chapters, these sample chapters have the ability to both increase and decrease sales depending on whether the readers like the work or not, so they release those that have the best chance of selling their book. Aren’t sample chapters the literary equivalent of radio singles? If I download only the songs that are played on the radio, this is the line I draw for myself, is this any different then saving the sample chapters I see on an author’s website? Does the fact that I can listen to them on my computer whenever I want instead of waiting for the radio to play them what makes it wrong? Is it that it is illegal to download them that makes them wrong? In Saudi Arabia it is illegal to own a Barbie doll, not that long ago in Afghanistan it was illegal for a woman to show her face, in Kentucky it is illegal to transport an ice cream cone in your pocket. -that last one was from a funny laws website- Does law dictate morality? If it does then isn’t morality subjective if different countries have different laws?
So the only point I was really trying to make, which means 90% or everything I typed here was probably a waste of time  , is that I don’t believe this to be a black and white moral issue, I believe that morally it is a matter of where you draw the line. And of course morality is subjective, so everyone can draw lines in different places. With MP3s a single person can be a thief and a consumer at the same time.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
Please keep in mind that my intention here...
Perhaps I should have labeled it as a legal disclaimer. |
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Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:56 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Wee, I have a new pen pal!
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
just that I don’t believe my actions are of any moral consequence at all.
Why not? Don't you think your being discourteous by not even asking before simply taking?
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
Is there a smiley for ironic chuckle?
Try this one: 
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
But are they paid per sale, or are they hourly and salaried workers?
If the company they work for goes out of business, then it won't matter how they are paid, they'll be unemployed. The company has to make money for them to make money. For every individual product stolen, they're one step closer to running in the red. When they hit red, that means cutbacks or going out of business. That simple.
Not every CEO is crooked. They have taskmasters called shareholders to answer to. Shareholders have a vested interest in the company making money because they own pieces (shares) of the company. They invested in the company and they want to see a return on the money they invested. The CEO wants to keep their job just as badly as everyone else. If they don't (like they misused funds or stole from the company), then they get fired.
I doubt you see that same story involving different companies every week on CNN. There are millions of businesses who run an honest business and they deserve a return for their work. If no one got something for what they do, then no one would do anything.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
I.e. does loaning a book to a friend count as theft? The friend is getting to, hopefully, enjoy the work without paying anything to the author or publisher. Is this not the exact same thing that people do when they download entire albums.
Yes, it is theft.
However, the publisher won't go after the guy lending a book to a friend. They just lent it to one friend.
People sharing songs on the internet are "lending" it to anyone with an internet connection (That was quite a few hundred million people last I looked). That tends to piss off the creator a lot more. A few hundred million times more.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
Isn’t library:books the same as internet:MP3s?
No.
The library has a contract with the publisher to lend the book.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
MP3s both increase and decrease sales at the same time, so which one is greater, the up or the down? True record sales are down, but is it because of MP3s, or because of more albums being unoriginal and/or uninteresting? Well, nobody knows for sure and nobody can prove it either way.
Be completely honest with me, how many people who download songs off the interent actually go out and buy the album?
I thought it was a little telling when Napster use declined (due to that lawsuit) and record sells suddenly went up at the same time.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
Let’s go back to the book examples again. It is not at all uncommon for authors/publishers to release sample chapters, these sample chapters have the ability to both increase and decrease sales depending on whether the readers like the work or not, so they release those that have the best chance of selling their book.
Ah, who made it available for download again? That's right, the creator. Tell me, who is making complete songs available for download? If it isn't the creator or if the creator did not give permission, then it isn't the same.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
If I download only the songs that are played on the radio, this is the line I draw for myself, is this any different then saving the sample chapters I see on an author’s website?
The difference is that the radio station has a contract with that musician or their publishing company. You don't.
The radio station went to the effort to ask to play their song or were approached by the musician because the musician wanted their song on that radio station. You didn't bother to ask and I doubt the musician asked you to play the song on your computer.
Whatever happened to common courtesy? Tsk, tsk.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
Is it that it is illegal to download them that makes them wrong?
It's wrong because you are denying someone else their right to profit from their work. You are denying them their right to pursue happiness. Your right to happiness does not supersede anyone else's, just like theirs does not supersede yours. They have every right to profit from their work, just like you and me.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
In Saudi Arabia it is illegal to own a Barbie doll, not that long ago in Afghanistan it was illegal for a woman to show her face,
Your trying to compare apples and pomegranates now.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
in Kentucky it is illegal to transport an ice cream cone in your pocket. -that last one was from a funny laws website-
Gotta love laws that try to protect stupid people.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
Does law dictate morality?
Nope, but I explained why it isn't morally right to download music that isn't being provided by it's creator above.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
And of course morality is subjective, so everyone can draw lines in different places.
I'll draw my line with those who want to profit from their work, their creations, their dreams and their vision.
quote:
Originally posted by Managarm
With MP3s a single person can be a thief and a consumer at the same time.
If by "consumer" you mean leech, then you're right.
P.S. Have you visited these boards before under a different name? I have the wierdest feeling that I know you from somewhere.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Mon Sep 29, 2003 9:48 pm |
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Scribbles
Unsent
Joined: 25 Apr 2003
Posts: 1063
Location: Spokane, WA. US of A |
i think Val is the only one i have ever seen pick somebodies post apart like that.
back on topic:
Disturbed - Awaken
wait, it just ended
Rammstein - sonny (or is it sonni? i dont have the CD case any more)
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Broken in Exile |
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Tue Sep 30, 2003 12:55 am |
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stanthony
One Smart Dog
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Posts: 556
Location: Tallinn, Estonia |
quote:
Originally posted by Scribbles
Rammstein - sonny (or is it sonni? i dont have the CD case any more)
Rammstein - Die Sonne? In any case, it is what I'm listening to right now.
_________________
- Druids do not fight with metal weapons! Sit here, and you over here. Put the elbows of your right arms on the table...
- Arm-pulling? Get me back me pan!
R.A.Salvatore The Cleric Quintet. Canticle |
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Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:57 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
@Scribbles: It's like dissecting a corpse. Pity my esteemed opponent doesn't know his argument was dead before he finished talking.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Tue Sep 30, 2003 11:46 am |
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cfmdobbie
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 1859
Location: London, England |
Hrm. I was listening to "Mostly Classical", an Internet radio station. But at the exact moment I clicked Post Reply, Winamp died a horrid death. How very ominous... 
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Charlie Dobbie
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Moderator of the Morrowind/Oblivion Forums= |
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Tue Sep 30, 2003 12:06 pm |
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Toaster
Bread Alert
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 5475
Location: Sweden |
Björn Rosenström - Splitter Nya Blåa Glänsande Sockiplast. Too strange words for me to translate.
_________________
Tabbrowser Extensions
DictionarySearch |
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Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:05 pm |
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Korplem
Swashbuckler
Joined: 23 Dec 2002
Posts: 853
Location: Pearl Harbor, HI |
quote:
Originally posted by Val
The difference is that the radio station has a contract with that musician or their publishing company. You don't.
The radio station went to the effort to ask to play their song or were approached by the musician because the musician wanted their song on that radio station. You didn't bother to ask and I doubt the musician asked you to play the song on your computer.
Whatever happened to common courtesy? Tsk, tsk.
I just have one thing to say about this... I don't really want to get dragged into 'Val's Lawful Beating', But before cd's were popular nobody cared if people taped songs they heard on the radio... it was basically considered free advertising. Of course, it could just be the fact that it wasnt as easy to sread across the world when it was on a tape. But I dont think that this matter is purely black and white, whos to say its ok to tape music that your receiving through the air but not ok to store 1's and 0's that make up a song on your hard drive?
take it easy on me... 
_________________
If soot stains your tunic, dye it black. This is vengeance.
-The Prince of Nothing |
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Tue Sep 30, 2003 11:03 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Take it easy on you? 
[Stuffy lawyer voice]
Way back in 1992, Congress drew a distinction between analog recording (on a tape recorder) and digital recording (the computer). In legislation enacted that year, they said that infringement actions cannot be filed against consumers who engage in copying using analog devices and certain types of digital devices on which royalties have been paid and which protect against serial copying of the copy. This is why you or I can tape music off the radio or a TV show.
But regular copyright principles apply to any other form of copying. Thus, downloading a song from the Internet without the permission of the copyright owner is infringement and clearly illegal, and it's been upheld in many a court.
Face it, taping off the radio is time-consuming and quality is lousy. On the Internet however, it is extremely easy to download and the audio quality is near CD. Downloading recordings from unauthorized services on the Internet is, in fact, illegal.
Also, individuals are not permitted to make copies of their copyrighted recordings and distribute them to others without permission from the copyright owner. Whether or not you do it for free or for profit is irrelevant; the impact on the copyright owner is the same, they do not have the ability to sell their artistic work (if you can call it that ) to others because they have received an unauthorized free copy. You can only make a copy as a back-up.
[/Stuffy lawyer voice]
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Wed Oct 01, 2003 12:33 am |
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Korplem
Swashbuckler
Joined: 23 Dec 2002
Posts: 853
Location: Pearl Harbor, HI |
GYAAAAAHHHHHHH!
*Korplem is hit by 'Val's legal mumbo jumbo mega punch' for 118 damage*
*Korplem is slain by Val!*
ok ok...
_________________
If soot stains your tunic, dye it black. This is vengeance.
-The Prince of Nothing |
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Wed Oct 01, 2003 2:07 am |
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