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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
Just train in the skill. You have the normal training options (i.e., 5-point increase, 1-point increase etc.).
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Jaz |
Wed Jan 15, 2003 6:27 pm |
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ghola
City Guard
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 146
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quote:
Originally posted by RobKob
You need FIFTY additional learning points to raise a melee or ranged weapon skill to 100%. They are needed for the automatic increase of the other melee or ranged weapon skill from TEN percent to SIXTY percent.[...]
Actually, it's 60 'additional learning points' per category... :p
I forgot that we start out at 10%, however the difference between the trained and auto-raised skill is not allowed to be greater than 30%.
Example: Training bow to 100% will result in crossbow being auto-trained to 70%. Ergo, 70-10=60 skillpoints (good for 6 character levels) were consumed in the auto-training process. :/ |
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Wed Jan 15, 2003 7:11 pm |
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RobKob
Head Merchant
Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Posts: 73
Location: Thuringia, Germany |
"Actually, it's 60 'additional learning points' per category... :p "
No, it isn't ... 
Example:
OH := One Handed Weapon Skill
TH := Two Handed Weapon Skill
B := Beginner
F := Fighter
M := Master
We invest only in OH
OH -- TH -- LP-cost - Level
10 --- 10 ----- 0 ----- B-B
30 --- 10 ---- 20 ----- F-B
50 --- 30 ---- 40 ----- F-F
60 --- 30 ---- 10 ----- M-F
90 --- 60 ---- 60 ----- M-M
100 -- 60 ---- 10 ----- M-M
The other melee weapon skill gets only increased by 50%. 
As you can see, it depends on whether both skills of a category are at the same level or not, and not on the value difference between these skills.
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"Time to toss the dice." Matrim Cauthon |
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Wed Jan 15, 2003 8:23 pm |
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ghola
City Guard
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 146
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RobKob-
Actually, you're correct... but I had to test it to believe it.  I myself raised my DH's crossbow skill once for 10 points and I didn't take that into account. I'm running my fifth character already, and keeping track of what, where and when gets harder by the minute. Come to think of it, it may already be my sixth character... :p
So 100 points max (50 melee + 50 ranged) are wasted on wannabe specialists. In other words ten full character levels... that's more than 25% of character development spent on engine-appeasement (and I'm being generous here). |
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Wed Jan 15, 2003 9:51 pm |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
True true.. I don't like it one bit. In Gothic 1 you had to become master of the 1H sword to start training the 2H sword(in the OC, and SC, not NC), but that was only 30 skillpoints.. oh dear, I fear that being a Dragonhunter may not be as much fun as I'd hoped(I wanted to use 2H 100% and Crossbow 100%, but that's barely possible now, if you want a lot of str/dex AND som misc skills). |
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Wed Jan 15, 2003 10:00 pm |
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ghola
City Guard
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 146
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It's very tight. Both of my DH's were level 40 when finishing the game so that's 400 skill points. For my last wannabe-specialist DH: about 150 points were spent on 1H sword (100%), 150 points on bow (100%), leaving 100 skill points to distribute over strength, dex, mandatory skills and secondary skills.
As RobKob hinted at, it's only hurtful to melee characters. Mages for example don't waste skill points as long as they stick to their field of expertise: magic. But again, that too is like a player corset. Basically, what it boils down to is that there are the three predefined classes and that's where the variety is. :/ |
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Wed Jan 15, 2003 10:24 pm |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
One of the things Gothic 1 got a lot of credit for was the open non-pre-determined character-generation, but it seems like they've removed some of the fun about it..
Max-character in Gothic 1:
Level 33 before entering the Temple of the Sleeper(any higher is not realistic - you have to push the limits just to get another level).
330skillpoints:
Strength: 90
1H sword: 30
2H sword: 70
Crossbow: 30
Dexterity: 86
Lockpick: 10
Skinning animals: 4
As a warrior, you could get this character(even without any str/dex potions), with:
100str, 96dex, master1H, master 2H, master Crossbow, Lockpick and all animalskills for the total of 90+30+70+30+10+86+4=330
I can see why they want to remove a character like this, BUT this is a character at the very end of the game, and therefore it is not unbalancing not to have complete possibilities without and linking skills as far as I'm concerned..
Jaz: So you continue to train with the normal masters, but now the "bow skill" changes to "crossbow skill", and then you train with 5% and 1%? |
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Wed Jan 15, 2003 11:00 pm |
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ghola
City Guard
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 146
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[..]I can see why they want to remove a character like this, BUT this is a character at the very end of the game, and therefore it is not unbalancing not to have complete possibilities without and linking skills as far as I'm concerned..
I agree. It's quite a change from G1 and one that doesn't seem to make sense at all. If balancing would have been PB's main worry then surely they would have nerfed the paladin's devastating-magic@virtually-no-mana-costs, and make mages more skillpoint-expensive because they literally have sp to burn at later levels.
Most important though, why would anyone WANT to improve one skill when training another? As always (game design rule #1), it should be up to the player to decide what he wants to train/do. Givem options.
Adding insult to injury, the enforced decision is a bad one, because a) it is very expensive and b) being an expert in both 1H and 2H (and/or both bow and crossbow) is a tactical waste.
And why, it's not realistic either! :p IRL proficiency in one skill may have a positive effect on another skill but it never comes at a price of twice the effort... it's free beer so to speak.
I think we can safely say that the linking (as it is) is a mistake. Great games deserve great mistakes, but they also deserve a fix. The problem is that I can't find the email address of any of the developers and I'd better not try to post in German on WOG. :p |
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Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:50 am |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
Go to the official Gothic II website, and then "contact the webmaster"(it's there somewhere).. the webmaster is actually a part of the team, so instant contact!
If you decide to write a mail concerning this problem, please state that a lot of the fans here at RPGdot feels that it is a problem, and invite them to visit the boards to see the fans' opinions.. |
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Thu Jan 16, 2003 2:47 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
Don't worry, some Piranhas are haunting these boards, so your wish/concern will be seen.
Maylander, about training: of course you still need a teacher who trains the skill you want to raise. It's not as if they switched their fields of proficiency because you maxed out the skill they taught... even though some NPCs agree to train you in different skills at later levels. As it happens my crossbow trainer at the higher levels also taught the bow skill. So after I had maxed out my crossbow skill I could still raise my bow skill by asking him to train me.
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Jaz |
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Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:30 pm |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
So there is a seperate trainer crossbow and 2H? I've only met 2 trainers, and they both trained bow only(which lead to crossbow later on).. |
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Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:23 pm |
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ghola
City Guard
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 146
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This is getting a bit confusing... :p Some trainers teach one skill, others teach two (or more). Just like G1. However some teachers start teaching additional skills in the final chapter. When you have already trained a skill to the max, training that particular skill will (obviousy) no longer be a dialog option. Again like G1, IIRC.
And regarding the Piranhas: I'll see if I can direct PB to this thread. An English language oriented forum is probably not the first place PB would start digging for comments on the German game.  |
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Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:48 pm |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
On a slightly side issue. I've been running thru the demo with a hacked character, so I could explore more or less in peace, since it's only the demo. At one point, I was attacked by an Orc elite, 2 wargs and 2 molerats all at the same time. My point is this, why do they all attack just ME? I would love to see more games be a little more realistic and have some of the critters attack other critters. Why wouldn't the wargs for example attack the easier molerats? They never attack the orc, just peaceful little me. M&M tried to bring this in, but most games don't and I think it could really add to the strategy element of a good RPG. Oh, I killed them all!! 
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If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Thu Jan 16, 2003 10:55 pm |
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Srikandi
Noble Knight
Joined: 04 Dec 2001
Posts: 222
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In fact even in the demo they will attack each other. They will also stop to eat a corpse that they come across while chasing you. Different beasts behave differently, though. Wargs in particular seem to be very single-minded. |
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Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:06 pm |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
Yupp, shadowbeasts love molerat-meat, bloodflies kill scavengers just for fun, and skeletons basically attack everything they get near..
The creatures in the Gothic-world go along with some creatures, but not with others.. |
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Thu Jan 16, 2003 11:21 pm |
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