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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
| Side Quest: Would you like fries with that, Pt. 2 |
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Every man and his dog has taken a swing at Bethsoft's Oblivion horse armour, which means this subject has been beaten to death. However, we discussed this very <a href="http://www.rpgdot.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1102241">issue</a> back in December, so I thought it was worth a quick revisit.
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<br>At the time, I mused that some custom in-game armour might sell for $4.99 - it's lucky I don't work for Bethsoft because it turns out that price point would have gotten me lynched as soon as I left the building. According to our <a href="http://www.rpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10077&newsid=45429">poll at the time</a>, 67% of respondents said they would never buy in-game items, 25% were only interested in "full" expansion pack and only 7% were in favour of the idea.
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<br>So, how <i>did</i> it turn out? Bethsoft says they exceeded their expectations - we'll have to take them at their word. The $1.99 - $2.50 for some horse armour generated plenty of column-inches of commentary and disgruntled Internet denizens hits boards all over the web…but that wave quickly passed and with some adjustments, it's back to business as usual. Bethsoft screwed up by releasing a paltry, overpriced mod first up instead of wowing shoppers with something meatier to get them hooked - but the next up <s>cheat mod</s> Wizard's Tower at a reduced price looks just the thing to impress.
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<br>Ultimately, many people are concerned about a slippery slope - will future developers intentionally leave content out to sell it separately? Will the box one day contain a bare-bones engine - NPCs sold separately? I agree with Penny Arcade's Tycho - that <a href="http://www.penny-arcade.com/2006/04/05">slope has already slipped</a>.
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<br>Xbox 360 players are snapping up themes and screenshot packs and the biggest business in town is spending more to download a lo-fi version of a favourite song to a mobile than you would for the MP3 at ITunes…people want to customise their experience and $2 is trivial.
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<br>Here's what I said last time:
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<br><blockquote><em>Ultimately, whether this is a good thing or not for gamers depends on maintaining the integrity of the gameplay, with judicious use of add-ons to enhance the play - rather than selling out the design in the name of ongoing revenue. Can the games industry do that? I can see the potential but I have my doubts.</em></blockquote>
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<br>…and that's where this is at. This <i>can</i> be a good thing but there will be plenty of attempts to rip us off along the way. Caveat emptor. |
Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:32 am |
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guenthar
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 20 Jun 2003
Posts: 26
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I don't think they will make a bare bones engine and then sell everything seperate because if the game isn't good enough then people won't buy it and having a game that can't currently be played or is crap won't sell.
PS. I know a lot of games that sell well are crap but other people must not think they are. (AKA Grand Theft Auto and other games) |
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Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:33 am |
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DL'ed the horse armor for free, and didn't really care for it too much. Apparently, the armor isn't affected by shadows. Looks really fake when your guy is cloaked in the shadow of a huge rock or tree, yet the armor is still bright as day.
However, what I *really* want to say is that as an Xbox Live user with a 360, I have fallen victim to the "Buy the cheap add-on" B.S. Sure, the live arcade games are worth the 200 points, but are gamer avatar picture packs or a new background to the 360 GUI worth it? No.
I think Bethesda is counting not jsut the PC sales of the Horse mod, but the 360 sales as well. I bet they barely sold a few hundred of the PC version of this "mod". Though I'm sure everyone who bought Oblivion for the 360 DL'ed it.
They can sugarcoat it, but they can't totally obscure it.
And considering how eays it is to find for free online, why bother buying it? Or any other of the mods they release? |
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Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:37 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by guenthar
I don't think they will make a bare bones engine and then sell everything seperate because if the game isn't good enough then people won't buy it and having a game that can't currently be played or is crap won't sell.
That was meant to be hyperbole. 
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:35 am |
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fatBastard()
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 40
Location: Denmark |
Considering Bethesda have already stated that they started on the Wizard Tower and Orrery mini mods before the game was released I would say they already have started deliberately pulling content for later release.
I admit that both concepts could have been thought of after they passed the feature lock deadline and therefore wouldn't have been included in the game under any circumstances but if the planned Orrery is indeed the same one as the locked door in the Arcane University it means they included the skeleton for the Orrery in the retail game ... and that can only be interpreted as content withheld for later release (in my opinion).
In theory this micopayment scheme COULD be used for good but I can already sense the numerous evil plots being hatched right now at the imperial palace of Darth EA 
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Signature? ... erm ... nope, can't think of one. |
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Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:23 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
To be clear, I don't have any problem with what Bethesda has done. The horse armour was silly but it was the first one and they obviously realise that it missed the mark. Despite the flaws I see in Oblivion, a lack of content isn't one of them.
The comments are aimed at potential future releases. This sort of scheme could potentially make an RPG that wouldn't otherwise be viable get green lit...or a publisher could use it to milk the public, especially if they have a popular franchise to wield.
It will be interesting to see if Atari has any plans like this for NWN2.
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:41 am |
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KasperFauerby
Village Dweller
Joined: 01 Feb 2006
Posts: 18
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If the price is right I have no problems with paying for add-ons after a game is released. In fact I have high hopes for the future of episodic game content and online distribution of games. If games could be released as a bunch of fairly cheap episodes (and of course assuming that the game companies could manage to keep on schedule with their releases) it could mean that more companies were allowed to take a swing at an original IP because a publisher would not have to pay in advance for the full production of the game content and future episodes of a game could be either scaled down or cancelled if the game turned out to be a flop. As for digital distribution of game content - this would mean that release days would be global and in my opinion this could help cut down on piracy because some people will download a new game because they won't wait another month for it to be released in their country. Also it's easier to buy a game online than having to find it in a shop or have it sent by mail. To show my support on the above I bought all the NWN premium modules - even though many of the free modules actually are better games 
So, for the main question in this topic - yes, I will buy additional content for Oblivion if the module sounds interresting enough.
As for whether or not the developers have intentionally held back on content for the initial release of their games - I find that quite unlikely! I mean, in every game production there will be more ideas for features than the budget and time table allows for. So during development features will be cut - also good and interresting features. Add-ons after a game has been released is a way for the developers to actually follow up on some of these ideas. Some of the ground work for the ideas might already be in the game - be it certain buildings, landmarks or similar features. Most often it will be the major graphical elements of the features that has remained in the game since they had possibly been included in the early mock-ups of the game levels and it would be impossible to cut them out once it was clear that the feature itself was not going to make it into the game. Think of how smoothly the add-on for Gothic 2 seemed to integrate with the main game! This was clearly because much of the story for NotR was already planned for the main game, but cut out because of time constraints. I don't view it as Piranha Bytes ripping me of my money when I have to pay for NotR to actually enable the game play around those already existing graphical locations in my Gothic 2 game!
- Kasper |
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Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:14 am |
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Gothic 2 NoTr is a full expansion, with a lot of new content, story, dialogue, items etc. Woth every single gold coin.
But 2 dollars for some .. futile amor for horses? No thank you.
I can see where this is going, 2 dollars here, 2 dollars there .. pretty soon you'll buy small little things for the price of a full game .. In the end they'll scam you by getting you in the habit of buying these mini-expansions without realizing you bought a lot of stuff that will never come close to the content of a true expansion or full game.
One more thing, please spare us with your idiotic "i downloaded it for free" comments. I'm sure this site could do away with people telling 'round how cool they are because they downloaded something somewhere for free.
Beth Soft mini-expansion may be stupid, but you're ven more so for pirating it, bravo. |
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Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:47 pm |
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Dyne
Village Dweller
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 17
Location: London, UK |
How much is too much? So you bought the horse armour for £1.99, many others do and episodic/mini-expansions are considered viable. Say Bethsoft continues releasing this material piece by piece at £2 a pop. Are we going to end up with a credit card bill of £100 for what amounts to an old-school £20/£25 expansion pack? Economy of scale and all that, £20 all in for one big product versus buying each piece individually and being nickeled and dimed to death.
Alternatively people end up saving money by only picking what they want in their "expansion pack".
I'm very suspicious of this experiment, but not prepared to write it off as a complete scam. Although the idea of releasing poxy horse armour as their flagship, first-out product doesn't fill me with admiration and confidence.
As a consumer I'm much more comfortable with the idea of picking up a physical box containing Oblivion: Castle of Mice or whatever the (presumably inevitable) expansion pack is called, in its entirety. As opposed to wading through dozens of £2 bits that I'm not sure are worth it.
"I'll buy the Sword of Death, Bow of Killing and Dungeon Snood...what about Mountain Farm? Hmmm, I could leave Mountain Farm and get Ship of Fools and Triton Armour...but then I won't have enough cash for Dame Fortune...is the Sword of Death really worth it?" Too much choice can be a bad thing.
The interesting thing to note will be whether a) the full expansion contains all "little bits" released previously and b) if the price works out cheaper, the same, or more than buying all the little bits (assuming A is true).
The fundamental question "does this shift to 'episodic' or small-download structure represent good value for money for the consumer?" can't really be answered yet. I'm a cynic so perhaps I'll be pleasantly surprised...or not.
Bearing in mind all Morrowind's plug-ins were totally free, I think it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth, for the moment at least. Perhaps a period of adjustment will ease the resentment of something considered to be free being "snatched" away.
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Chonky big tim-tam Australian so-so. |
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Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:53 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by fatBastard()
In theory this micopayment scheme COULD be used for good but I can already sense the numerous evil plots being hatched right now at the imperial palace of Darth EA
 ... that was pretty funny but I'm afraid that they are beyond the hatching phase already (Battlefield booster packs).
Maybe it's the silliness factor of "Horse Armor" why everyone is all of a sudden acting as if they are taken by surprise but this trend has been going on for quite a while now, right?
SOE's adventure packs for EverQuest II come to mind or BioWare's premium modules or Battlefield booster packs as mentioned above or Valve's announcement of episodic content for HL2.
I guess we're currently in an experimental phase where neither developers nor publishers (nor the consumers even) are sure "what's right".
We'll just have to wait and see how it turns out in terms of market acceptance. Developers and publishers will face the challenge of finding the "sweet spot" where people won't feel ripped off.
Going by the strong reactions of the gaming community, it seems like most companies have missed the mark so far.
I don't think that the average consumer really cares whether developers have different teams working on different projects so it will always look bad when you have a broken core game (I know 1st hand that Battlefield and Oblivion both have plenty of serious bugs) but seem to focus on making more cash.
Stupid move. They need to focus on delivering a high quality core product first and foremost before even thinking about additional pay-to-play content IMHO.
Oh well, in the end all that you can do on an individual basis is vote with your wallet.
I personally have no problem with pay-to-play content either as long as there is some reasonable price vs content value.
I bought the Euro booster pack for BF2 for example but I'm definitely not getting another one. Just was not worth it in my opinion.
I'm probably going to get the orrery and the mage tower for Oblivion just to see what those are like and any future investments regarding Oblivion will be based on the quality of those two mini add-ons. I won't get them before the release of a patch though (and I hope that most people will do the same).
Finally, on the subject of previous free mods and mod tools, well, it seems like people have almost begun to take it for granted that games ship with an editor for self-made content.
Now, I'm aware that the devs and publishers are also doing themselves a huge favor when modders keep their game/franchise alive and popular but what's happening here effectively is that they are giving away several years of work "for free".
Imagine going to the movies and getting a key to a AAA Hollywood production studio from the ticket collector dude... crazy, huh?  .
It's almost a bit like that with unlimited capability mod tools (which Oblivion's mod tools are not due to the missing import functions for 3rd party art assets).
I therefore believe it's fine and fair if they keep these tools to themselves or strip them off certain features.
Hm... or in most cases at least. I only recently played NWN which was easily the worst single player RPG experience I've had in years (or maybe ever) but I also had a go at the mod tools and -yep- this is where BioWare deserves some major credit. If they are planning to do the same with NWN2 though then I'd advise them to market the game as an AD&D construction set so people who are expecting a decent game won't feel cheated.
Oblivion, however, does have a decent single player component and I think it's safe to say that Morrowind and Oblivion both provide pretty good value even without the construction sets which can't really be said for NWN in my opinion. |
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Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:53 pm |
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Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
Beth Soft mini-expansion may be stupid, but you're ven more so for pirating it, bravo.
Not when you consider that I buy a new 4K PC every year, never pirate games (I have a huge 300+ PC game collection) and I'm an A&FM who makes your yearly salary in about a month.
My people own you sir |
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Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:54 pm |
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TheMadGamer
High Emperor
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 487
Location: Southern California |
quote:
Originally posted by Moriendor
I guess we're currently in an experimental phase where neither developers nor publishers (nor the consumers even) are sure "what's right"...Going by the strong reactions of the gaming community, it seems like most companies have missed the mark so far.
I think that since the gaming community's (as represented by those on message forums like this one) overall behavior as a bunch of bratty misfits will probably factor very little into whatever developers or publishers like "Darth EA' (LOL by the way) determine to be the 'sweet spot.'
Instead, what is going to happen is a reworking and retooling of the business model based on sales and probably not much else.
If the interent-message-forum-gaming-community didn't have such a quick-to-anger mob mentality maybe it would be different. But as it stands now, if I were a developer or publisher, I wouldn't take 'us' all that seriously either.
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The Poster Previously Known As NeptiOfPovar |
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Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:33 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by TheMadGamer
quote:
Originally posted by Moriendor
I guess we're currently in an experimental phase where neither developers nor publishers (nor the consumers even) are sure "what's right"...Going by the strong reactions of the gaming community, it seems like most companies have missed the mark so far.
I think that since the gaming community's (as represented by those on message forums like this one) overall behavior as a bunch of bratty misfits will probably factor very little into whatever developers or publishers like "Darth EA' (LOL by the way) determine to be the 'sweet spot.'
Instead, what is going to happen is a reworking and retooling of the business model based on sales and probably not much else.
If the interent-message-forum-gaming-community didn't have such a quick-to-anger mob mentality maybe it would be different. But as it stands now, if I were a developer or publisher, I wouldn't take 'us' all that seriously either.
Very true . And -yes- the success of all of these efforts will undoubtedly be measured by sales and sales only. Let's hope that the majority of people have some good taste and common sense for a change (*prays that the horse armor sales are going to suck compared to orrery + mage tower*). |
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Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:21 pm |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
I, for one, don't like this business model and won't be buying any piecemeal additions. I got burnt with Dungeon Lords, which sounds a little like Dhruin's hypothetical bare-bones game, and will never purchase ANYTHING from that developer again, nor from that publisher. Yes, I will buy a full, value added expansion pack for Oblivion, but nothing short of that.
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If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:43 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
Beth Soft mini-expansion may be stupid, but you're ven more so for pirating it, bravo.
Not when you consider that I buy a new 4K PC every year, never pirate games (I have a huge 300+ PC game collection) and I'm an A&FM who makes your yearly salary in about a month.
My people own you sir
Which just goes to prove that money doesn't buy brains. You said you downloaded Horse Armor for free, and yet you "never pirate games"? Apparently, money doesn't buy integrity, either. 
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=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Mon Apr 10, 2006 12:43 am |
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