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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
My questions should not replace Michael C's system, they should be a supplement to his system.
Certainly the count of different monster types have to be included.
Maybe we are still missing some important ingredients for the perfect rpg-soup - all readers - think about it ! ... and post them here 
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Wed Sep 11, 2002 10:11 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
I'm actually seeing a merge of HiddenX's questions into Michael C's framework. MC's framework score is based on an overview of different aspects of a game. I'm seeing HX's questions as a way to break a "touchy-feely" overview into specific yes/no/amount bites. It's almost a secondary framework within each category of MC's system. In looking at things, I don't see where it would work well to have the questions directly be a part of the main system.
So, for instance (and I know this needs refinement, but you get the idea), in GAMEWORLD, you answer HX's 5 questions. Free to go anywhere? Yes, so 2 points. Different societies? 2 to 4 gives 1 point. Landscapes? 5 to 10 gives 1 point. Day/night? none means 0 points. Calendar and weather? both means 2 points. Add it all up, and our example has 6 points, which means the game gets a subscore of 6 in GAMEWORLD, which will be figured in with 5 other subscores to give the RPGDot Factor for the game.
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Wed Sep 11, 2002 11:13 pm |
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Ariel
Harmonious Angel
Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 432
Location: Germany |
Lin: I hope you suddenly get some free time, every once in a while. 
dte: ~I'm seeing HX's questions as a way to break a "touchy-feely" overview into specific yes/no/amount bites.~
See HiddenX's post above yours, I suppose you started writing before he posted. His questions are meant to supplement the grand scheme.. I think even yes/no/amount bites can be woven into the system and vice versa. That's probably why my post got so long this time...
Care should of course be taken in 'weighing' all these factors, so they make sense in regard to the mission (amount of RPG elements in a game), and don't rule each other out.
Michael: ~And how to translate them to demands for a CRPG (Some are obvious enough, but others are not so easy!)~
Ah, c'mon, you can make it! You should be quite experienced by now! 
Some further comments: Regarding Deus Ex, you are right, Michael (do you have a nick? I'm so lazy with typing names..). On the whole scale, I think this game's story fits into the "RPG light" scheme. Do you agree with that?
I'd adjust Story Light a bit, to make it clearer:
"Light: 2 points: The story is developing through chapters or milestones, which still have an almost fixed path. A very few side stories/quests, or noticably different paths you can take to advance the same story, are available."
~Regarding removing NPC's from "Story": I tried that, but actually I have a hard time to oversee the NPC's role in developing a story, we maybe could replace or enhance it with the amount of "Events" that develops the story!~
Mmm, after giving this more consideration, I'm fine with the current system for now, until a really good exception to the rule appears. Maybe add a requirement for Story - Medium: "several quests are available at the same time", to emphasize a minimum degree of freedom, although that's already implied by the other requirements. Again, this would make classifying easier.
Okay, I'm itching for further progress (Lin is right, this topic is very, very intersting!). So, to make life easier for Michael , here are my personal impressions regarding HiddenX's questions, whether they are already included in the system or not, and some additional comments:
GAMEWORLD
* ~are you free to go everywhere, anytime you want ? ~
Check. This is 'Freedom of the Gameworld', and already fully covered in the system. Btw, methinks the same question can be asked for Story.
* ~How many different societies are in the game ?~
Check. Fully covered. Suggestion for Light: Change "2-3 areas are optional" to "a few areas are optional".
* ~How many different landscapes (forests, wastelands, mountains,...) are in the game ?~
Not fully covered yet (only in 'heavy'). The question is how important the landscape variety is. I think it's a less important than freedom or the variety of societies.. Don't have a suggestion though.
* ~Does a day/night cycle exist ?~
* ~Does a calendar (summer, winter, ...) exist, maybe with a weather system ?~
Not covered yet. These could be combined ("gameworld dynamics"). Day/Night for instance could be a requirement for "Medium", an additional weather system required for "More", and on top of that a calendar for "Heavy".
COMBAT
* ~how many tactics, strategies, spells/counterspells you have to use to survive in combat?
(remark: this has nothing to do with real time vs. turn based combat. example: Rage of Mages: Real time and very tactical)~
Check. Covered, I think. Remark to HiddenX's remark: if it's very tactical, it would at least reach "Light", regardless of being real time or not. I don't know if it's enough to justify "Medium" - if it is, then the first requirement in Medium ("Gamer can more decide the pace of the battle") could be removed..? Not sure about this.
* ~Is it critical for combat to have a good equipment management?~
Not covered yet, if I'm not mistaken. I presume what you mean with this is how much the choice of your equipment affects the outcome of a battle? Probably worth adding.
* ~Do you need resistances against poison, fire, ... to survive?~
Not directly covered. These are the character's attributes or stats, as opposed to his skills. Could be quickly fixed by changing anything involving "character skills" to "character skills or attributes", or a similar description.
* ~how complex is the enemy artificial intelligence?~
Check. I think this is indirectly covered in Medium up to Heavy, by phrases like "strategies necessary to win".
STORY
* ~How many quests, side quests, puzzles, riddles are in the game ?~
Check. Covered. Puzzles and riddles are not actually mentioned, but I think they can be regarded as synonyms for quests.
* ~How great is the non-linearity of the game - can the quests be solved in more than one way ?~
Not fully covered. The non-linarity of the story is taken into account, but different solutions for quests are not.
* ~How many side-stories, legends in books or from NPC's are told?~
Not covered. This is essentially the world's background and history, as opposed to the actual (current) story that drives the player forward. Totally worth adding.
* ~Are there different game-endings ?~
Check. Covered.
NPC-INTERACTION
* ~How many dialogues are in the game ?~
Not covered (directly). Could be added I guess. The more NPCs have to say, the better.
* ~How many dialogue options do you have ?~
Check. Covered, except for 'heavy' maybe, but that is probably included in "More".
* ~Are these options depending on your skills, alignment or deeds ?~
Not covered, only indirectly in "Medium", but quite important I believe. Another similar question: "Are there different options for the same goal?". In other words, can you play in character? Chaotic, neutral, good; mean or friendly?
* ~Have your answers an influence on the game ?~
Check. Covered.
* ~Have the NPC's a life of their own ?~
Not covered, but quite important. Their 'life' could reach from simple background information in their dialogues, up to Ultima 7 like schedules.
GAMEWORLD MANIPULATION:
* ~Can you manipulate the gameworld ? (levers, buttons, secret doors,...) ~
* ~Can the gameworld manipulate your character(s) ? (traps, teleports, ...)~
* ~Can you pick up items, herbs, raw materials and then mix new potions, make new weapons,... ?~
Check. Fully covered (all questions aim at interactivity possibilities).
CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT
* ~How many different characters can you play ? (race, gender, profession, ...)~
* ~How many different skills can be choosen for your character(s) ?~
* ~How many different traits can be choosen for your character(s) ?~
Not fully covered. Well, the basics are, but one important element in regard to character customization is not: The look (gender, face, clothes, hair etc.). Also, there is still a borderline "character creation"/"character development", which should somehow be evened out if possible. Example Divine Divinity: Character development is right out Medium (with 96 different skills, and the hero has access to them all, plus 4 attributes, up to 50 level-ups), but I wouldn't know how to rate the character creation with the current system (one race only, 2 genders and 3 different professions (making for 6 characters with a predefined look), but there are several portraits for each character...
* ~How many levels can be reached ?~
* ~How much can the character(s) be changed at each level ?~
Check. Both are covered.
~How many guilds, groups can be joined ?~
~How many different ranks in these guilds can be achieved ?~
Not really covered. Don't have any opinion on this though, but maybe I'm just getting tired..
* ~Can you get a reputation ?~
Check. Covered by "social impact on societies".
Whew, that's all. I hope my post was still readable...
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Thu Sep 12, 2002 12:23 am |
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Ariel
Harmonious Angel
Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 432
Location: Germany |
Addendum to CHARACTER
Maybe it would be best to split this category into "Character Creation" and "Character Development", and make each sub-category contribute 50% to "Character". Character creation would include everything you can change before actually playing the game, like stats, skills, look, basically the whole customization stuff. Character development is only about what you can change while playing. I reason that this would be easier and 'more accurate' than deciding for yourself where the borderline is.
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Thu Sep 12, 2002 1:15 am |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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Hey all, that's a great system that's being developed here! I've been busy since I've returned to school, so I'll just make a quick comment.
I think that the system should work in such a way as that a pen and paper RPG will score perfectly (well at least comprehensive systems like AD&D). In that vein, I think that only PnP RPGs should score a perfect "5" on the Story category, for only PnP RPGs are truly open-ended. The best CRPGs in terms RPG-ness in story should be a "4", IMO. Of course, if a truly dynamic RPG with a true AI ever pops up (20 years from now?), then it may warrant a "5"...
OK, I shall continue to lurk, though I think I shall pop out and make more comments later
- Wind |
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Thu Sep 12, 2002 5:38 am |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
@Windwalking
Because of the limit of computer memory and the limited software development time a crpg will never be true 'open-ended' like a pen&paper game.
In spite of this I would give a game with many different pathes and some different endings a '5' in the story category.
As I understand Michael C a rating '5' stands for 'heavy rpg' - a rpg covering all elements. It is not the 'best' or 'perfect' rpg - it should be a neutral objective rating.
A '5'-rated game is maybe a 'perfect' rpg for you and me, because our personal preference are 'heavy rpgs'. For a person that likes Diablo most, rpgs with a rating of '1' up to '2' would be the 'perfect' rpg.
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Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:53 am |
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mDrop
High Emperor
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 479
Location: Under the desk |
Okay, now who will code this thing? 
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Thu Sep 12, 2002 10:58 am |
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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
I don't mind coding it into PHP, so that you can use a web based interface for it. But I would suggest to get something consistent first or in other words something that can be coded
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Thu Sep 12, 2002 11:54 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
WOW, so many new very interesting suggestions since I last was here, just give me a little time, and will make a new version, hopefully covering most of your good suggestions.........
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Thu Sep 12, 2002 12:30 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Myrthos thanks for the offer, but still hold your horses, we still need some refinement on the system.
I'm in the process of refining the next version, but reading the many good suggestions, I have to make the following much discussed statements, which I hope you guys will comment, so we can make this system in the right spirit.
1) This system is only a guide to determine how much RPG- element there are in a certain game and how strong it is in different ares, not directly how good or interesting each element are or how good the game in overall is. Some people don't prefer so much RPG-elements and would rate games eith lower RPG-score higher.
2) The content in the different frames(No, ultra light, light, medium, more, heavy) in each category is not setup, so that the most important RPG-elements is in the "Heavy" frame, and the importants of the RPG -elements gets less, the more you come down in the frames. No the most important basic RPG-elements are in the "Medium" frame, where we actually cuts the "real" CRPG's from the rest of the games. The "More" and "Heavy" frames includes only the sublim RPG-elements, which really brings the game up over the general heap. The same for the "ultra light", "light", "none" frames which defines the very basic's a game should include to be considered to have any RPG-elements at all.
@Arhu You asked a lot of questions and made a lot of good suggestions, and I will come back to them all, I just want to make the next version first, and it will hopefully answer lot of your issues, and then we take the rest from there, okay?
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Thu Sep 12, 2002 1:03 pm |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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quote:
Originally posted by HiddenX
@Windwalking
Because of the limit of computer memory and the limited software development time a crpg will never be true 'open-ended' like a pen&paper game.
In spite of this I would give a game with many different pathes and some different endings a '5' in the story category.
As I understand Michael C a rating '5' stands for 'heavy rpg' - a rpg covering all elements. It is not the 'best' or 'perfect' rpg - it should be a neutral objective rating.
A '5'-rated game is maybe a 'perfect' rpg for you and me, because our personal preference are 'heavy rpgs'. For a person that likes Diablo most, rpgs with a rating of '1' up to '2' would be the 'perfect' rpg.
Sorry if I didn't make this clear, but I'm not saying that a "5" in story means it's a perfect RPG in terms of how good it is; I'm saying that a "5" in story should mean truly open-ended, which only pen and paper RPGs manage to accomplish.
Although I agree that a "5" story CRPG is impossible right now, it may indeed be possible years from now, if a good enough artificial intelligence is created. That's why I think we should let story "5" have the requirement of being truly open-ended; no computer game right now achieves this, but in the future it may be possible.
- Wind |
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Thu Sep 12, 2002 8:44 pm |
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Ariel
Harmonious Angel
Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 432
Location: Germany |
MC:
1) Totally agreed, and nothing to add.
2) Agreed as well.
If I make statements concerning the 'importance' of certain elements, it is only an attempt at finding the right frame for them - which I think I'm not very good at, hence my wooly comments and suggestions . Questions that could arise: Is this element an RPG element? Is it essential in an RPG, or is there a similar element that can make up for it? How much of this element has to be there in order to make a game more RPG or less RPG?
If an element is not essential for what one expects from an RPG, it could be added to heavier frames, maybe only as additional example. If it can be considered a core part of any RPG, it could be added to all frames as requirment or option, raising in its amount and weight.
Wind: I see your point. Games develop, and I wonder how old games would compete in the current system, how many of them would actually reach 5 points in a category. But is the P&P requirement really necessary for 5 points in Story? Wouldn't that have to be done for all categories? After all, the freedom in P&P RPGs is truly endless, in all aspects, bound only by the players' imagination. Which is, however, something that I don't think will be possible in CRPGs until Artificial Intelligence reaches the heights of a human mind.
That said, I could imagine a bonus point in each category, perhaps, for P&P like freedom. A transcendental frame, so to speak. "no, ultra light, light, medium, more, heavy and P&P", though I'm not sure if this is really useful just yet.
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Thu Sep 12, 2002 9:40 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
@Arhu
Not yet, but Myrthos could set up each variable to be on a 0-9 scale but the awarded values would only be 0-5. These leaves the option open for extending the scale upwards when a really new and inovative product is available.
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Thu Sep 12, 2002 9:44 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
VERSION 0.3
To determine if a game should apply to a certain level, all the mentioned demands must be fulfilled in that level and the levels below.
CRPG Categories: Story, Characters, Game-world, Manipulation, Combat.
Other interesting categories: Graphics, Game length, difficulty.
Each category is divided into 6 frames from "none" to "Heavy" CRGP-elements giving a score from 0 to 5 points.
A games points from each category will be summed and then dived with 5 and will classify it's CRPG-score to the following list:
CRPG Factor 0 - < 1 point => "No CRPG"
CRPG Factor 1 - < 2 points => "CRPG light"
CRPG Factor 2 - < 4 points => "CRPG"
CRPG Factor 4 - 5 Points => "CRPG Heavy"
The Categories frames
STORY:
No: 0 Points:
-The story is told in the beginning, and finished in the end, and is not changeable during the game.
Ultra light: 1 point:
-A Few ”events” evolves the story, but still in a given path.
Light: 2 points:
-The story is developing through chapters or milestones, which still have an almost fixed path.
-A very few side stories/quests, or noticeably different paths you can take to advance the same story, are available.
Medium: 3 points:
-The story develops as the game proceeds,
-Events impact on the story are considerable,
-The gamers actions have considerable impact on the development of the story.
-More than one path is possible in the ”main” story.
More: 4 points:
-A few different endings is possible
-More than 2 ways to go through the story
-Lots of side stories/quests are required.
-Quests or tasks got often more than one solution!
Heavy: 5 points:
-Very open ended, with very high replay value regarding the story alone.
-Many events will contribute to many side / main story topics and respond to many different approaches of the gamers.
-Lots of books or other materials can give additional information’s about world for the interested player.
CHARACTERS:
No: 0 Points:
-No development other than a better weapon, armour and a few pre-distributed skill points after each chapter / milestone.
Ultra light: 1 point:
-Max 2 options (points /spells / treats / skills) to distribute and maximum 10 upgrades of the character(s).
Light: 2 points:
-Max 5 options (points /spells / treats / skills) to distribute.
-A minimum of social development / regards in the game-world societies is necessary)
Medium: 3 points:
-Your characters development is much affected be gamers influence.
-Gamers must have access to develop, Spells, skills / treats, attributes (Strength, intelligence etc) on a regular basis.
-The characters can have considerable social impact on more than one society / guild.
More : 4 points:
-Now a party of at least 3 fully controlled characters should be possible,
-The choice from different professions / races should give a combination of at least 10 possible different characters (Note: Different mug-shots don’t count).
-Considerable social impact on more than 2 societies / guilds is possible.
Heavy: 5 points:
-At least 20 times upgrade for your characters,
-At least 10+ options of change each time, Or a learning by doing or teaching possibility which makes up for the 20 level upgrades.
-+15 different races/ professions to choose from.
NPC's:
No: 0 points:
-Few NPC's most only merchants.
-Pre-determined dialogues.
Ultra light: 1 point:
-The dialogues now have a few options, but it still contribute to the same story, and each choice is reversible in consequence.
Light: 2 points:
-NPC's are presented in small societies, and some of them can make a difference in further development of the game.
Medium: 3 points:
-NPC's acts truly as a part of a bigger community.
-NPC's in each society are much aware about social status also toward your characters.
-More than one society with NPC's are present in the world.
More: 4 points:
-There are fleshed out dialogue trees,
-Choices is most final and irreversible.
-NPC’s have considerable impact on the amount of Main / side- stories.
Heavy: 5 points:
-NPC's are aware of the continuously developing situation in the game-world, and react clearly to the gamers actions and deeds.
-More than 2 bigger societies of NPC's must be available.
-Reputation, skills, alignment, attitude etc. have considerable impact on the NPC reaction.
GAMEWORLD:
No: 0 points:
-The task to get from A to B has no or few options to go away from a fixed path.
-The game-world only inhabits monsters and a few merchants.
-The world is without (none monster) societies.
Ultra light: 1 point:
-Still a strict path, but with a few small societies on your way.
Light: 2 points:
-A few areas are optional on your path each chapter / milestone.
-Societies will give some quest / story material.
Medium: 3 points:
-There are at least several physical path's to choose between, and more will open up as the game proceeds.
-Societies must give the feeling of a live community, with their own daily business, and not just a few NPC's waiting for the hero's to come along and pass on a few quests.
-The size of the game-world must be considerable.
More: 4 points:
-Societies must be very different and have strong relation to the game-world and each other.
-We are no longer talking about path's when exploring the world.
-The appearance of monsters and societies must make common sense.
Heavy: 5 points:
-The world is totally open for extreme freedom to explore, and it's your own task to decide if your character(s) are good enough to take on the different part of the world.
-The diversity of the game-world environment must be significant.
-Day & night cycles, and different weather conditions and /or different seasons.
MANIPULTION:
No: 0 points:
-Almost no action possible besides walk/run and combat, except maybe a very few items.
Ultra light: 1 points:
-Events are few with very limited interaction.
-Game-world itself is very static.
Light: 2 points:
-There are a few weapons, armours, items in the game.
-Traps, levers, keys and alike is available in it's simple presence.
Medium: 3 points:
-The game-world is full of weapons, armours, items, skills, spells in significant variations.
-Not item / combat related actions are considerable.
- The things to do will quickly fill up more than one page in your journal, and keep it that way for most of the game.
More: 4 points:
-You can see /influence changes in the environment, or use it either to create/ manipulate things or get strategic possibilities in combat.
-Custom items must be available.
Heavy: 5 points:
-NPC's are many and give a ton of more or less interesting assignments to do.
-Alchemist, spell-casters, smiths, herbalist and other item collectors are in heaven due to the tons of items for manipulation.
COMBAT:
No: 0 points:
-You put your character(s) into position and they solve combat on their own, or the combat result is only affected by your skills on the keyboard.
Ultra light: 1 point:
-Real-time combat only without any pause options.
-Options are limited to the choice of the opponent to attack.
Light: 2 points:
-Character skills and/or players strategic abilities have a noticeable more impact on the outcome of the battles too.
Medium: 3 points:
-Players can more decide the pace of the battle,
-Strategic positions of the party is more vital, and the options for each character is more plentiful.
-At this point it's also important that monsters offers some diversity not only in numbers, but also in strategies necessary to win.
-Monsters AI are more than attacking the closest enemy!
- There must be more issues for your characters during combat, than loosing or giving hit-points. Ex. Poisoning, paralyse, curse etc.
More: 4 points:
-Their must be alternatives to swing your sword and cast a spell during combat Ex. Skills, traps, spells, treats, or items to use in battles.
-Different strategies are necessary for survival.
Heavy: 5 points:
-Each characters can be controlled individual down to the smallest detail and in any pace wanted.
-The monsters must offer a lot of difference both in numbers, abilities, battle environment, which must offer quite a diversity in battle approaches.
- Monsters AI are considerable.
Other Categories:
GRAPHICS:
0 points: Text only.
1 point: Static pictures, and low resolution (under 640X480)
2 points: 3D or/and max resolution (640 X 480)
3 Points: Up to 1024X760, and up to date or a little worse than normal standard
4 Points: Up to 1600X1200, and among the better in today’s standard.
5 Points: Absolute among the best in it's category, with a few ground breaking content.
Length:
0 points: Under 8 hours.
1 point: 8 - 20 hours.
2 points: 20- 50 hours.
3 points: 50- 80 hours.
4 points: 80 - 150 hours.
5 points: over 150 hours.
Difficulty:
0 points: Very simply point and click, and no brain triggers at all.
1 point: Very simple, and few very easy brain teasers.
2 points: Simple interface and still no manual is necessary to understand game concept.
3 points: skimming the manual will do, or follow a short tutorial.
4 points: Manual necessary for adequate control, some game mechanics must be learned by doing.
5 points: Manual must be read to the last page to understand the game, and even then the game holds a lot of learning by doing.
A conclusion on a game could look like this:
Might & Magic VII
RPG Factors: Story: 3, Character: 5, World: 5, Manipulation:4, Combat: 4.
RPG Score:= 4.2 => "RPG heavy"
Other Factors: Graphics:2, Length: 4, Difficulty: 4
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Fri Sep 13, 2002 10:51 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Okay now I've tried to implement the missing questions from Hidden X's list, and some suggestion from Arhu to solve those in Version 0.3.
Also changed some terms for better reception of new ideas to incoorporate RPG-elements.
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Fri Sep 13, 2002 10:59 am |
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