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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
Garon, I understand that choices must be made in the design process - but after all is said and done what can you really DO in this expansive world they gave us? Let's see - you can kill creatures (not a very large variety either, the same relatively small number of creatures all over) - and killing one creature in this world is handled in essentially the same manner as any other creature because there are no AI differences or subtleties to these creatures.
Oh, you can run around in the world - ok, that kept me amused for the first hour maybe (pretty is pretty - but it only goes so far). Further, the world really isn't all THAT large and the scenery differences are marginal at best.
You cannot interact in any meaningful way or carry on conversations with any NPCs. You cannot be amused by watching NPCs go about their daily routines (there aren't any daily routines to watch).
So really all you have for functionality in this wonderful huge game world is to walk around looking at scenery or killing things.
Whatever floats your boat. But make no mistake, there isn't much here.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
Mon Jun 10, 2002 9:55 pm |
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kibbles
Guest
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> The stories aren't deep, but they are numerous.
...thats my problem w/ it. this wasnt exactly forthcoming, either: when asked how the gameworld compared to ES2, Bethesda responded that it was smaller, but more detailed; lesser quanity, more quality.
now im stuck w/ the purchase, and its just huge quanity, no quality. reminds me more of the M&M series, w/ their lifeless NPCs, void of any semblance of intelligence, character, charm, etc--*life*.
i guess ive been tainted by Ultima 6 & 7. those bitmapped NPCs actually seemed real. their stories, their problems, their lives.
today what do we get? 10 years later? pretty graphics. dumbed down gameplay. where did we go wrong......... |
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 9:56 pm |
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Lordr31z
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 11 May 2002
Posts: 190
Location: United States of America |
Garon i must agree with you completely. Except i just cant get past the lousy graphics engine. That is all i wish to be fixed in this entire game. By that i do not mean the graphics i mean how rough the game runs.  |
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:00 pm |
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Lordr31z
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 11 May 2002
Posts: 190
Location: United States of America |
Kibbles my brother. I think you have been playing to many console games like the gamecube. That is where consoles have gone.. pretty graphics and no inovation. I havent seen much of that on pc and definately not in this game. If you actually talk to people and read what they say and read books this game is very deep. You cant just run around and kill things and do a few misions and say omg this is all there is. Actually i think the story is to complex for most of you and you dont understand it so you follow your instinct and say it sucks or there is no depth. You are what i call mainstream gamers. I can smell you from a mile away. That is why they make mx video cards.  |
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:10 pm |
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Jung
Guest
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Here is my attempt at a proverb:
You should only make the world as big as you can make it interesting.  |
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:12 pm |
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Lordr31z
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 11 May 2002
Posts: 190
Location: United States of America |
I am going to get kicked off this forum for insults but i have to tell it like it is.  |
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:12 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
Ok, Lordr31z, where is the depth? Some depth that has any meaning in the game. This is supposedly a roleplaying game - show me where anything you do matters at all - show me where you have real choices that matter in more than a very small handfull of quests.
Don't just say the word "depth" - show me examples of depth.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:20 pm |
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Farseer
City Guard
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 131
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Actually the depth of history and race isnt the issue for me.. Its the fact that beyond the age of 25(lvl) there is little to challenge you.Can you honestly tell me that such a character can easily kill a 1000 year old wizard without breaking a sweat is realistic? |
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:21 pm |
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Jung
Guest
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Lordr31z, you are making no sense. If that is your feeble attempt at an insult, you should quit now before getting flambéed |
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:23 pm |
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Lordr31z
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 11 May 2002
Posts: 190
Location: United States of America |
My point exactly. MAINSTREAM. |
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:27 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
Depth is that you can
1) Run trought main quest in lets say 50 hours
2) Run trought main quest and do several side quests
3) Run trought main quest and do all or most side quests
4) Run trought main quest and do all or most side quests and read most books, visit most places
Lets say that difference between first and last choice is 1000 % - 50 and 500 hours.
Not many games gives such choices.
Also you can play for "good" and for bad "side" (commona tong). Again not in many games you have such joice.
Other thing is that there is so much places you may and may not visit, so many quests you may complete or not. So many options to raise your "status" in land Morrowind, or choice not to do this.
You can reach high ranks in several factions, in several cult and guilds. Help people around and they will say "welcome outlander, your name is nearly legend around here".
You can colect items and make little exhibition in your house.
That is. This game is really roleplaying game.
I agree that you have right to not like it or even to think that parts of this game that are good for me are not good for you.
There are ofcourse things that I do not like also - Journal and NPCs that say everytime same thing. Music that is wonderful, but all time same... |
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:30 pm |
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Jung
Guest
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Mainstream ...like xbox? |
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:32 pm |
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Farseer
City Guard
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 131
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You have an uncanny way of making the term Mainstream sound like an insult... Of course you are wrong...If you consider a person thats been roleplaying since before the beginnings of D@D and even married a DM of no little renown, and have played all the greats in the rpg and mmorpg markets a mainstream discontent. I see no reason why the rpg market has to settle for Beauty and the Bore, over Beauty and the Beast.
Last edited by Farseer on Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:36 pm |
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Garon
Guest
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Jung, what is interesting to me may not be interesting to you; and vice versa. You can argue all day, but you are trying to change someone's tastes. That's hard to do. It's sort of like you trying to convince me with words that spicy chinese food doesn't taste good. You can't do it, although I invite you to try.
Someone may say there is not much there, others say there is a lot there. Both are true from a certain point of view--it's a matter of taste and how one with a particular taste prioritize content.
Garon |
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:37 pm |
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Guest
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<<You cannot interact in any meaningful way or carry on conversations with any NPCs. You cannot be amused by watching NPCs go about their daily routines (there aren't any daily routines to watch).
So really all you have for functionality in this wonderful huge game world is to walk around looking at scenery or killing things.
Whatever floats your boat. But make no mistake, there isn't much here.>>
Joey Nipps' original post took me by surprise: am I really that interested in a game in which there is nothing to do? Where everything is boring? Am I really just a dog chasing his tail, or interested in working on an assembly line for 30 years? Is that what you have to be like to like Morrowind?
Probably not. The standard the posters are suggesting seems to be: the game has to be "interesting" and to contain "alot of new material", perhaps even "consistently new material" and probably "consistently new material every minute of game play". It has to have more than one way to interact with creatures who want to kill you, and also (separately) with NPC's who may or may not want to kill you. It has to have a fully deformable world, in the sense of being able to raze mountains and raise valleys and redirect rivers and empty oceans. It has to have a fully-realized social structure, in which every act has permanent, internally consistent effects on the attitude of every being in the game towards you, perhaps even of the game world itself.
Wow! That would be some game. I'd be willing to argue about how close Morrowind comes, but really I doubt that any game meets that standard, and I doubt that any game will for some time . . . . unless we accept real life as a game in the same sense.
But Morrowind, like all RPG's and most games, is not life, it's fiction, comparable to novels. And like most fiction it has a combination of plot, and character development, and a culture. If ALL you're interested in is plot [having a lot of novel things to do, each of which is significantly different than the next and the last], then Morrowind isn't all that interesting (unless you like novels with lots of short episodes structured around a central theme). And unlike at least some novels, Morrowind's plot doesn't reveal or create character through the plot changes; instead, it allows the player to develop character through the choice of starting points and later actions.
This facet (of player-initiated, action dependent character development) could in fact be stronger. I'm not one that minds that the characters level out too low in the game: at some point, experience should lead you to be able to cope with what the game throws at you. But I do think that character choices could make more of a difference in how you interact with the world, which is why I try to start out with weaker characters, and have created mods to do this, where choice of race/class really makes a difference in how you interract with different people (speech, theft, battle or workaround: all possibilities). I'd be willing to accept much lower maximums on skill development, and much more difficult interactions both with monsters and with NPC's. Stilll, Morrowind's handling of player-initiated character development is better than virtually every other game I've played, and than many fictions.
Where Morrowind really shines as fiction is in its development of culture: it has a well-realized alternate world, which has a series of layers to it, and which permit you to add more through careful scripting of modded dialog. If you don't take to this culture . . . or if finding more out about an imaginary culture bores you . . . . if you want things to do, and a variety of them, constantly changing from episode to episode . . . . and if you're not interested in seeing how this character might solve a plot problem differently from that character . . . well, all right, yes, you'll be bored.
And that's your right. But the smugness of the statement "make no mistake, there isn't much here" is pretty rich, given the author's admitted distaste for Morrowind's fictional world and for the way it prompts interaction. Because that's all it boils down to: his distate, and his preference for some other form of interaction. More power to him, but I'm not a fanboy to suggest his judgment isn't reliable, because of his open subjectivity. |
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 10:41 pm |
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