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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
... So I guess people want an ever increasing experience dependant level system where the cap is the sheer amount of time you're willing to dump into finding monsters to whack. That works for level based games... now how about skill based experience-less level scheme games?
Skill based games are almost impossible on paper. I recall one or two, and they were a bust. The computer on the other hand....
Hmmm, the problem is making the use of the skill meaningful. I recall traveling between towns in Daggerfall by running and jumping the whole way. While this is somewhat realistic, I am sure this looked terribly funny to the rabbits ... "Thumper, look at that strange man dressed in metal. What ever is he doing? He seems to be doing an endless series of running long jumps. I wonder why?" ... and wasted a lot of playing time on my part.
This is realism I can do with out thank you very much! (I don't go gyms either). But I would love a system where the number of levels you have in a skill can be increased only so much by practice before they have to be used in a "hot" sitiuation. This would lead to good gaming experience since your character would not have to go out and learn the hard way. But it is also realistic. (See note below).
Again, what about experience caps? My brother and I came up with a pretty cool system. Allow unlimited skill, but only limited advantage based on a differntial scale. EG:
Skill 200 vs skill 0 is only slightly better than skill 200 vs skill 50, but skill 200 vs skill 150 is the same (or close to) skill 100 versus skill 50. It worked but was a pain to administer (for a paper game) involving a table and some multiplication (easy for one on one...very hard for 3 on 3 and next to impossible for 5 on 20).
Note: I used to fence a lot. After about two years or so I began to plateau. Then I started free from fighting w/ friends using broad swords, spears, daggers, etc (made of wood with a metal core to give the correct weight). This then led to the the use of chairs, doors, trees, rocks etc. At first this resulted in a deterioration of my fencing skills as I was learning "bad" habits (I became particularly attached to having a good throwing dagger). But then my fencing then began to get much better, passing my old levels by far.
Was it a general "combat awareness" that was improving? I am sure, but I also think a lot had to do with now having a real "gut" feel for why things were done a certain way as opposed to some other. This then allowed me to exploit the oppenent not realizing this. (eg Don't have a dagger? Then remember that opens an area of weakness that must be covered by the foil ... oh yeah that must be why the parry in six is done that way ... maybe this guy doesn't realize why six is done "just so" lets try that out...) |
Mon May 13, 2002 2:33 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
First, the Arcanum thing- I was level 62 when I quit. Based on what I've learned I was about 2/3 thru the game. I was playing "easy" setting and my character was a front-line swordsman. Each swat gained me XP. At easy setting, it usually took 15-20 swats to make a level. That really wasn't too tough to do. I know that playing the easy setting screwed the balance for me, but I figure that the level cap would come into play at the "normal" setting for many front-line combat types.
Second, skill-based growth certainly is tougher. Since I'm currently a Wiz8 junkie, I have some experience with it, but even that isn't really a true skill-based system. It's probably closer than first appearances, since character level only affects a couple factors (spell availability and random monster level), but there's still XP to deal with. I suppose, in a true-to-form skill based system, you can still predict the number of opportunites the player will have to do "something". The game script will still put the player in a certain number of situations that will call for some kind of action. It will certainly be much more difficult to quantify things, though. For the dev to say "It will take 2540 sword swings to finish the game" is rather assinine. I suppose the real problem with an honest skill-based system would be motivating the player to take part in the story at all. How do you differentiate between a "meaningful combat swing" and a "pumping up my stats swing" and reward the first one more? From a realism standpoint, how much difference is there? There's certainly no substitute for in-situ experience, but practice certainly will help performance.
Kind of a long-winded non-answer eh?
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=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Mon May 13, 2002 6:24 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Ahhhh... easy. That makes sense then. The easy setting gives you double the experience. You sound like you might have hit the cap anyways... but it would have been in the home stretch of the game. Melee fighters, especially those with whopping high strengths, get more experience yes... because of the silly correlation between damage done and experience gained. The level system in Arcanum was ANYTHING but balanced. A Half-Ogre melee fighter with a rusty dagger and a 20 strength could level like nothing else, balancing speed with damage output.
As for the second bit... how can you tell when it was meaningful? Easy. WHen it succeeds, it counts. So when you cast a spell or hit something or whatever. Morrowind and Daggerfall use this... and while Morrowind is a number crunchers paradise (at first until they realize that hey... getting all 100 stats by level 25 is.. uh... boring and they either a) Restart with a character emphasizing RPG style over Everquest like perfection or b) slam the game for being easy because they chose to take a path that would give them a perfect character) I think it does a lot of things right.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Tue May 14, 2002 12:56 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
EverythingXen,
I think you are correct that the Daggerfall/Morrowind system is a better system than the old D&D system. My example of running and jumping is not as silly as I painted it, but when I play a game I like to be rewarded for fun stuff.
Now if my guy is a physical fittness wacko, then running from city to city jumping all the way may actually make sense (and it did at the time I did it). But let me have the option of setting a macro to do the work for me - I don't go to a gym in real life cuz I find repetitive tasks performing no useful work boring. I would not want to simulate going to a gym, just give a prompt box asking me how many hours I work out for. At the end I am fatigued, and will find out if my training increased any stats. Less realism, better game.
You have a excellent point about role playing versus character maxing  . |
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Tue May 14, 2002 1:31 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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No, running and jumping IS silly. My Imperial in full plate looks positively ridiculous leaping from town to town... but with heavy armor I couldn't stand being so slow! 
Fortunately the game provides for that... I think that a few enchanted items with Feather spells to lighten my load and a speed enhancer will do the trick...
In any case before this gets moved to the Morrowind forum...
Skill based systems are great in CRPGs... I had a lot more fun working out and such playing Quest for Glory then I did hitting the level up or train in the Gold Box games. But they don't work in tabletop...
(Although in west end games Star Wars RPG I implemented a skill based supplement system for faster advancement. If a character rolled 85% of his dice maximum and it was a 'template skill' he advanced that skill a 'pip'. Great for starting characters as it let them breath a sigh of relief and take ALL the skills they wanted. Also, it was the only way, after a year of heavy play, to get the characters to look ANYTHING even the 'secondary' characters in the movies... to say nothing of the HEROES!)
So a recap... exponential experience cost in level based games.
Success based trial and error with a skill limit, not a level limit in skill based games?
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Tue May 14, 2002 2:08 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
... So a recap... exponential experience cost in level based games.
Success based trial and error with a skill limit, not a level limit in skill based games?
This sounds good to me, but I would remove the skill limit, and replace absolute % of success with a comparitive chance.
eg use Chess as an example, I would like a system where given the following skills A = SL 160 B = SL 150 C = SL 100 D = SL 20
A & B beat D in 6
C beats D in 7
A beats C in 12
B beats C in 14,
A beats B 75% of the time in 30.
The idea being that a beginner loses to a master just a fast as to a super grand master, but the SGM beats the pants off the master. As I posted before this is VERY hard to do in a paper game with more than 2 or 3 characters, but a computer should have *no* problem.
I am not 100% sure I like this system, but it has some merits (I just hate the idea of caps perfection should be an unattainable goal). |
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Tue May 14, 2002 3:03 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
As for the second bit... how can you tell when it was meaningful? Easy. WHen it succeeds, it counts. So when you cast a spell or hit something or whatever.
Two problems I see. Your system implies that "shadow boxing" does not improve your skills. Likewise, taking a whack at a tree has the same value as hitting the Grand Dragon of Hero Dicing. Don't know that you'd want that to be the way things went. Second, like I said, you'll have a hard time convincing the player to move the story along. What do I gain from rescuing the Fair Damsel that I won't gain from chopping down a forest?
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Tue May 14, 2002 10:24 pm |
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Gig
Southern Spirit
Joined: 20 Feb 2002
Posts: 3226
Location: NFG Headquarters |
I played Arcanum on the default difficulty setting and I reached the level cap with 1-1/2 days of play still to go. I was very near the end but from that point on the game was an absolute chore! The only reason I finished it after that was because I knew that I was close to the end. The level cap just sucked the life completely out of the game.
I agree Xen, I hate it when monsters respawn and I have to kill them all over again in a monster free area. Arcanum made me run back and forth all across the map so I'm not sure how I could've avoided random encounters. I had no trouble hitting the cap and I'm an inexperienced player that misses a ton of stuff. I know I miss things because I read about all the stuff that I didn't see and do in these games on here!
I'm not a level chaser but I still hit the cap. My landlord hit it also and he's the opposite of a level chaser. The whole goal for my LL is to finish every single game in the shortest possible amount of time. He loves to "grip it an rip it" right from one end of the game to the other and he can care less about the level of his character. I think he (my landlord) just likes to be able to say that he finished all these games.
From what I've read on these forums I think you are the exception, rather than the rule, as far as the level cap in Arcanum goes. I think your style of play just lends itself really well to AoSaMO so you can play the game the way the devs intended. Believe me when I tell you that the cap in Arcanum is the worst fun wrecker I've ever encountered in a computer game. Even Might and Magic IX with it's curious habit of freezing you (me) out and ruining your quick save didn't compare!
_________________
''Perhaps I'm old and tired but I always think that the chances of finding out what really is going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say hang the sense of it and just keep yourself occupied. Look at me: I design coastlines. I got an award for Norway.''--Slartibartfast |
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Wed May 15, 2002 12:02 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
Two problems I see. Your system implies that "shadow boxing" does not improve your skills. Likewise, taking a whack at a tree has the same value as hitting the Grand Dragon of Hero Dicing. Don't know that you'd want that to be the way things went. Second, like I said, you'll have a hard time convincing the player to move the story along. What do I gain from rescuing the Fair Damsel that I won't gain from chopping down a forest?
In a pen and paper just say 'no you don't get experience for ruining your sword on the tree!' And you can do the same thing with a CRPG... assign objects a flag that lets the program know if practicing a skill against it is worthwhile.
I know what you're saying though. Hitting a goblin should be worth less than hitting a dragon, right? Nah. Why add another level of complexity? If a gamer wants to sit around for 90 hours whacking rats in a cellar so he can retire as 'champion rat whacker' or give up the game because it's too easy now that he's given himself maximum power for no risk... let him. Who's experience is being ruined?
Once again, that's a CRPG. Pen and paper I'd just stop DMing if all they wanted to do was whack goblins for the next two real years. Why rescue the damsel instead of whacking trees? Did you spend good money on a CRPG or time on a pen and paper game because you wanted to whack trees for endless hours? If yes... then mission accomplished. If no... well... stop whacking the freaking trees! There are damsels to rescue and dragons to slay!
Do modern gamers not take any responsibility in their own enjoyment of a game?
(Oh and as for shadowboxing... I'd say 'no'... but I'd have the option to 'train' a skill with a trainer for some gold. That's your shadowboxing and practice, handled 'off screen'. Or put a cap on it. You can't convince me that someone who spend hours every day practising boxing against a mirror will be able to step into the ring with Tyson and take him down. There's only so far a skill can increase without practical application in ANY field)
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Wed May 15, 2002 1:25 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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My style of play in Arcanum with the evil mage who hit level 44 was.. No Survivors. The moment anyone g ave him a hard time, he killed them. Guards didn't like that? Tough. Killed them too.
The other character I had complete the game was just past level 31... he was good aligned. Another was level 37. The evil guy was highest because entire towns fell before his wrath where the goody goody two-shoes couldn't bring themselves to hurt anyone.
I will freely admit that in most cases I used a lot of teleport. But my dwarven technologist was level 29 entering Caladon for the first time... he was melee. I SUPPOSE he might have hit 50 because he did so much damage with his pyroaxe and there was the Vendigroth Wastes left to wander through....
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Wed May 15, 2002 1:33 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
I am in agreement EverythingXen on a number of points. Practice should be handled abstractly with a limit to advancement.
As to beating up the Grand Dragon of Hero Slicing the experience gained that is different from goblin slashing is .... the experience of fighting tough dragons. But more importantly, beating up the dragon gets you the title of Dragon Bane, much better than Goblin Bane don't you think? Or, in game terms, fame goes up, some thing you don't get by whacking trees. |
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Wed May 15, 2002 1:38 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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"Look out! It's Erkarious Forest-Slayer... dreaded lumberjack! We're finished boys!! RUN!!!"
I'd beat a dragon just to prove I could beat a dragon (to say nothing of to save a city from its ravages, etc). Or if I were playing an evil character for its massive treasure hoarde. Hard to become the most powerful wizard on the planet when you kill an entire goblin nation just so you have enough money to buy the components to create a mediocre wand....
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Wed May 15, 2002 1:46 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
Alright, that's OK. Now, how do you handle multi-player? I don't play MMORPG and probably never will, but there's a lot of folks that do. Should "Rat-Bane" be more skillful than "Rufus the Mad Dragon Slayer" and should they both quiver in fear around "Lumbering Jack"?
Bottom line, I don't see how you could do a true skill-based system. Lintra's fame component has potential, but assigning points to different critters is really just another name for experience points, yes?
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Wed May 15, 2002 2:38 pm |
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vaticide
Put food in here
Joined: 21 Feb 2002
Posts: 1122
Location: One step behind a toddler bent on destruction. |
dteowner-- I am not quite sure what you are asking, but I will give it a shot.
About skill based systems, Ultima Online had a skill based system. There were many skills to choose from, and you started with all of them at 0%. You could get each of them to a maximum of 100%. Each percentage was worth 1 point, and you could at any one time have a maximum of 700 points to your character. Therefore you could "grandmaster" (100% skill) 7 skills. There is one problem though: there are many skills you want at least some of, and any time you do a skill it increases. This means if you are at the cap and you gain skill in something, something else has to give. This will be the skill you haven't used recently. Therefore even at high levels you have to be careful to maintain your character.
As for MMORPGs I am not sure what you are asking. Should some characters be more powerful than others? Yes. Generally those with too much time on their hands will be more powerful. Does this mean a good player without as high of level or skill cannot best them in combat? No, but it won't be easy. |
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Wed May 15, 2002 3:23 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
Alright, that's OK. Now, how do you handle multi-player? I don't play MMORPG and probably never will, but there's a lot of folks that do. Should "Rat-Bane" be more skillful than "Rufus the Mad Dragon Slayer" and should they both quiver in fear around "Lumbering Jack"?
Bottom line, I don't see how you could do a true skill-based system. Lintra's fame component has potential, but assigning points to different critters is really just another name for experience points, yes?
To a certain extent it is just a replacement for experience points, in that famous/infamous characters will be treated differently than no names. But fame will not increase your stats, give you more HPs etc. At least not directly...but it should open doors that were closed before. But that makes sense.
As Baron of the provence being ravaged by skeletons, ghouls and mummies who would you hire "Hector the Paladin, Slayer of Undead" or "Joe Average"? |
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Wed May 15, 2002 3:23 pm |
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