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_gator
High Emperor
Joined: 28 May 2003
Posts: 530
Location: Kentucky |
quote:
Originally posted by otter
I use a lot of practise, so if i have a Bishop, i don't spend any points on Pie or Wiz, only to 15 in Alc, and 30 in Psi. They usually keep their melee skills really close behind the fightier chars.
otter,
I currently train them in order of Wizardry, Alchemy, Divinity, and Psionics with Knock-Knock, Heal Wounds, Divine Trap, and Mindread, respectively. I always hold off on spell picks (except for Mind Stab since you cannot buy/find it anywhere), so I have very few spells before hitting Arnika. I always have to put points in Wizardry to get it to 30 for Knock-Knock and it keep it ahead of the other books.
If you don't mind spoiling me on this, could you explain how you train your Bishops?
Thanks. |
Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:27 pm |
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Bilbo
High Emperor
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: New York |
quote:
Originally posted by _gator
Also, specialist casters (Mage, Priest, Alchemist, Psionic) get that 25% bonus to their spellbook. So you do not have to spend time training to learn spells faster. The specialist will always be more powerful in their spellbook than the same spellbook for the Bishop (max 125 for Mage, max 100 for Bishop).
Honestly, I never saw a huge difference between 100 and 125 skills. Maybe if you quantify it there is some small difference, but just watching the game without specifically trying to observe it I saw nothing. (Of course, there could be other variables such as class; my best basis of comparison is a lord at 100 divinity v. priest at 125 who were in the same party.)
_________________
The world itself shifts and changes and fades to mist like the strings of a minstrel's harp, and mayhap the dreams we forge are more enduring than the works of kings and gods.-Robert E. Howard
=Member of the RPGDot Shadows, The Nonflamers' Guild, and The Alliance of Middle Earth= |
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Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:12 am |
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otter
One of Us
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 1337
Location: Portland, OR |
@_gator: I start with Bless for Div (you can even do this at Burz; you can get the chest with the Lightning Rod to cough up a Mana stone about 20%)
I spend Level points in Alc (and get some by casting) to 15, whereafter i mix potions to 30 and then KK it up to 50, finishing by mixing the big ones on up to whatever. Usually by L8 or so i have 30 in Psi and can crank it up with Mindread after that. I take a Mage level to KK my Wizardry up to whatever once i got Alc taken care of. You can cast KK (or anything else you learned as Bishop) even if your Wiz is below 30. I also wear the Brilliant Helm (and Ankhs of Dex when training Alc) This speeds up your learning noticably!
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If thousand-year-old family traditions are so important to you, why do you have indoor plumbing and electricity in your family's house? |
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Thu Jun 05, 2003 7:55 am |
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_gator
High Emperor
Joined: 28 May 2003
Posts: 530
Location: Kentucky |
quote:
Originally posted by Bilbo
quote:
Originally posted by _gator
Also, specialist casters (Mage, Priest, Alchemist, Psionic) get that 25% bonus to their spellbook. So you do not have to spend time training to learn spells faster. The specialist will always be more powerful in their spellbook than the same spellbook for the Bishop (max 125 for Mage, max 100 for Bishop).
Honestly, I never saw a huge difference between 100 and 125 skills. Maybe if you quantify it there is some small difference, but just watching the game without specifically trying to observe it I saw nothing. (Of course, there could be other variables such as class; my best basis of comparison is a lord at 100 divinity v. priest at 125 who were in the same party.)
Specialist will get totally in the green much faster than a Bishop (unless you train them a lot). Experience levels, spellbook skill, and realm skill determine how far in the green you get for a spell. So if you compare a specialist caster to a Bishop from the beginning of game until, say, mid 20s, then the specialist will usually be 1-2 levels ahead of the Bishop and have a higher skill in the spellbook because of the 25% bonus. I believe once they get into even higher levels and the Bishop is casting totally in the green, then the Bishop is more powerful IMO. A simplified way to say it would be that specialist casters peak in their power sooner than a Bishop.
Personally, I run Bishops because I like the fact that they can cast any spell and they get a lot of spellpoints because of all the spells that they can learn. My current party has four Bishops at level 18. They just entered the Rift and each one cast Asphyxiation at power level 2 when battling the Rapax. They were dropping like flies. It was much faster than hacking away at them with swords. Just being able to cast the same "most damaging" spell multiple times IMO is a great benefit. If it is not as powerful as a specialist casting it, who cares as I can cast it four times.
I haven't run a specialist since my first party, so I cannot "see" the difference either. I think I'll run a Bard, Bishop, Mage, Priest, Alchemist, Psionic party next to see for myself how much of a difference it makes (the 25% bonus and faster leveling that is). I think I will forgo training magic for this party to see if the game is more enjoyable without doing training. |
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Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:05 pm |
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Shrapnel
Rocket Scientist
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 1325
Location: Newark, NJ |
ok you guys are touching on some good stuff now.
My 2nd team is doing the Ump/T'ra quests now so the exp is flying and the 50/50 success rate on battles is swinging in my direction (cause my magic casters are coming into their own)
Why do you say Bishops get 'so many' skill points? I dont notice it
I do notice that they get a ton of spells, and all of hers are finally turning green. Yes I can notice a difference in a Bish L7 fireball and a Mage's (abt 12 pt diff).
As for training: I've been trying and trying and trying to train my magic casters, the only thing where I see noticeable gains each time I do it is casting KK on locks. Everything else, the gains are only noticeable 1/day (ie when I cast buffs after waking up, I'll see gains...and wont see gains again until, like, 2 sleep cycles later (24hrs I guess)
I'm talking about actual realm/spell increases like when casting:
Magic Screen
Enchanted Blade
Missle Shield
Armorplate
As for Alchemy, I guess Im just not cut out for it:
Either Im broke all the time from buying armor/weapons, or I just cant seem to find the time to mix potions (bad enough I have to constantly alt/tab between game and the linked page to the alchemy list.
And I read that some spells are best casted at lowest levels but I see my spell guage going from red to green faster when I take chances and cast orange and totally skip yellow
I dont know how its determined what spells you get on your next level up!
example, I didnt know you needed 30 in x to get KK, I just thought you got it at a certain level.
And Diety, all my casters get 100 Int and Pie first cause they are the best spell casting skills. Is this a good rule of thumb, I mean, getting those two seem more logical than getting, say, Str or senses...nothing besides Pie and Int seems to make sense for magic based chars
I will say this, my 3rd time around, I think Im going 3 Bish, the minimal loss in power will be made up by having a fully buffed battle crew in under 4 rounds, and having redundancy makes it so much sweeter knowing I dont have to put all my eggs in one basket. |
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Thu Jun 05, 2003 4:16 pm |
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_gator
High Emperor
Joined: 28 May 2003
Posts: 530
Location: Kentucky |
quote:
Originally posted by Shrapnel
Why do you say Bishops get 'so many' skill points? I dont notice it
I did not see where I said this. I did say "they get a lot of spellpoints".
quote:
Originally posted by Shrapnel
As for training: I've been trying and trying and trying to train my magic casters, the only thing where I see noticeable gains each time I do it is casting KK on locks. Everything else, the gains are only noticeable 1/day (ie when I cast buffs after waking up, I'll see gains...and wont see gains again until, like, 2 sleep cycles later (24hrs I guess)
I'm talking about actual realm/spell increases like when casting:
Magic Screen
Enchanted Blade
Missle Shield
Armorplate
I need some more information to help you out with this one. What are your current skill points in Wizardry, Alchemy, Divinity, and Psionics and also your realms? What level are you currently and what classes are you trying to train?
quote:
Originally posted by Shrapnel
As for Alchemy, I guess Im just not cut out for it:
Either Im broke all the time from buying armor/weapons, or I just cant seem to find the time to mix potions (bad enough I have to constantly alt/tab between game and the linked page to the alchemy list.
If all you are interested in is making money from the potions, then you just need to be aware of three potion recipes:
Light Heal + Mod Heal = Heavy Heal (Alchemy 15)
Heavy Heal + Cure Lt Condition = Cure Disease (Alchemy 40)
Heavy Heal + Cure Disease = Renewal (Alchemy 50)
The renewals with net you the most profit. In () is the Alchemy skill required to mix the potions.
quote:
Originally posted by Shrapnel
And I read that some spells are best casted at lowest levels but I see my spell guage going from red to green faster when I take chances and cast orange and totally skip yellow
It is usually only beneficial to cast at power level one when you are casting the same spell over and over again, such as training on the bank vault with Knock-Knock. The benefit is that you get more skill increases per real time as compared to casting in the orange as you can cast many more times at power level 1 and quickly. You probably get increases more frequently PER CAST when casting in the orange, but this will not save you real time as you run out of mana quickly and will have to camp to regain it. So when not casting repeatly, cast in the orange (unless you cannot risk a backfire at that point in time).
quote:
Originally posted by Shrapnel
I dont know how its determined what spells you get on your next level up!
example, I didnt know you needed 30 in x to get KK, I just thought you got it at a certain level.
The following link provides detailed information on how spell learning works.
http://wiz8.web1000.com/perko.html
The Wiz8SpellAbility spreadsheet is also helpful.
quote:
Originally posted by Shrapnel
And Diety, all my casters get 100 Int and Pie first cause they are the best spell casting skills. Is this a good rule of thumb, I mean, getting those two seem more logical than getting, say, Str or senses...nothing besides Pie and Int seems to make sense for magic based chars
When getting up Elemental Shield and Soul Shield, it is a good idea to have fast casters. I will have two of my casters be fast and the rest slow. Pump INT, SPD, and SEN for the fast casters. Pump INT, PIE, VIT for the slow casters. Maxing INT will give you Powercast and will help you increase your skills faster. Maxing SPD will give you Snakespeed and improves initiative. Maxing SEN will give you Eagle Eye and improves initiative. Maxing PIE will give you Ironwill and increases the number of spellpoints. Putting points into VIT will give you more hitpoints as you have very few to begin with.
quote:
Originally posted by Shrapnel
I will say this, my 3rd time around, I think Im going 3 Bish, the minimal loss in power will be made up by having a fully buffed battle crew in under 4 rounds, and having redundancy makes it so much sweeter knowing I dont have to put all my eggs in one basket.
Exactly why I like having a lot of Bishops. If one dies, get paralyzed, etc., it does not matter. You still will be able to cast any needed spell with the other Bishops.
Well I hope I did not overwhelm you with too much information. If you need more details on a particular question, I can explain further. |
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Thu Jun 05, 2003 4:57 pm |
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Shrapnel
Rocket Scientist
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 1325
Location: Newark, NJ |
quote:
Originally posted by _gator
quote:
Originally posted by Shrapnel
Why do you say Bishops get 'so many' skill points? I dont notice it
I did not see where I said this. I did say "they get a lot of spellpoints".
.
My mistake, I meant spell points...I havent compared total SPs between mage/priest and Bishp but I dont notice the Bish as having a much deeper well of mana over the others. |
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Thu Jun 05, 2003 5:53 pm |
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_gator
High Emperor
Joined: 28 May 2003
Posts: 530
Location: Kentucky |
quote:
Originally posted by Shrapnel
My mistake, I meant spell points...I havent compared total SPs between mage/priest and Bishp but I dont notice the Bish as having a much deeper well of mana over the others.
Piety, spellbook skill, realm skill, and number of spells known in a realm affect how many spellpoints you have for a realm. If Piety, spellbook skill, and realm skill were equal between a Mage and Bishop, then the only difference would be number of spells. A Bishop can learn many more spells than a Mage as they learn from all spell books. One of my 19th level Bishops has 100 Piety, 76-97 in my spellbooks, 62-100 in my realms, and has 90 of the 101 possible spells. He has over 2000 total spellpoints between all the realms (averages over 300 a realm). |
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Thu Jun 05, 2003 6:17 pm |
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