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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
All hail Hexy, the poster child of Pessimism 
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:48 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
I was relieved to hear you are self-funded. Obviously every method has its share of problems, but at least you don't have to deal with externally-imposed deadlines and meddling producers. A mate of mine has been working on a game that was to be published by Sony (Europe) and, after a year of their producer constantly butting in and forcing bad changes that gradually diluted the game into a dumb version of the original prototype, Sony pulled out. The studio had 3 promising-looking games on the go (with publishing deals) when my friend started working there, one of which was a major movie license - all those projects have fallen through (for reasons totally beyond the developers' control, nothing to do with game quality) and now the whole studio might go under. Anything is better than that  .
Anyway, some suggestions you might find helpful... to encourage the community aspects you could organise events like games of skill at the pub (darts, axe-throwing, spitting contest), or some way for mages to pit their magical skills against each other in a non-hostile way (all sorts of possibilities, depending on what spells are implemented - a spell vs. counterspell contest? magical firework displays, to be judged by the public?). Like you say, it would be great to have areas that feel down-to-earth and offer respite from questing and fighting (especially for newbies), and setting up some simple activities could lay the foundations for these things to form. Allowing players to provide content may help too - eg, artistic players could be allowed to upload their pictures and sell them as paintings for others to decorate their homes/businesses, perhaps such players may even be hired for their talents (paint the temple ceiling!); maybe even player-designed clothing, but I can see how this may be harder to implement. However, it may be useful if some kind of clothing customisation is possible, because then player-made organisations could create their own uniforms.
The notion of archers being deadly at range and very vulnerable close-in is realistic and should encourage teamwork. For some reason, when thinking about the bow controls I assumed a third-person view - no idea why. I do think it'd be a shame not to have the same degree of interactivity in ranged combat that you'll get in magic & melee... OK, slight adjustment - in first-person, you could click (and hold) on your target, at which point you will "lock on," then pull the mouse back to draw the bow, release the button to loose. Again, stats/skills/equipment will affect accuracy, damage and speed - so it could be up to the player to vary the speed of his mouse movement and the duration he holds his aim to offset penalties (eg, a quick drawing action and quick release will result in lower accuracy and power, but rapid fire rate - which could be desirable in close quarters; drawing the bow slowly could result in better initial accuracy, suitable for stealthy attacks; holding the bow at full tension could gradually increase damage and accuracy, but if a weak/unskilled character holds for too long he could do more harm than good). Something like that.
I like the idea of getting the feel of the controls to bear some resemblance to the simulated weapon - so a Zelda-style catapult could operate the same as a bow; for thrown weapons, click & hold on your target, then push the mouse forward & release; crossbows could be fired with a single mouse-click, but reloading would require a similar action to drawing a bow (heavier winch-operated crossbows could use a circular motion for reloading)... etc. This would make firearms the least interesting ranged weapons to use, so if the above examples were actually fun in practice and not just tiresome, it might discourage a lot of players from using guns. Plus, firearms could be made to benefit less from character skill - a master archer with great skills & gear, and special abilities like the double-shot you described, could be more than a match for any gun-toting enemy; if guns receive less spectacular benefits form skill & experience (eg, no damage bonuses, no special moves, just a steady increase in accuracy), players may find them less desirable.
Anyway, I know the idea of "locking on" to opponents might seem odd. Depends what kind of feel you're going for - I think something like what I described might favour character ability; while the more free-form FPS style may lean more towards player ability.
Well, I'm kind of rambling on and on here, but I'm just grateful you've given me something interesting (game-related) to think about - more than the games industry itself has acheived of late! 
lol @Chekote  |
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Wed Apr 14, 2004 6:39 pm |
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Christos
Village Dweller
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 15
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@plin
Im sorry about your friends development team. I know how if feels to have a great team behind a really good project and then have it all shutdown (this just happened to a game called breed). Its a shame. Hell, its a shame fallout 3 was tanked(maybe) because of interplay. I hope the best for him. By the way, where in europe is he? I am originally from Greece and I go there alot. I currently live in new york though. I really want to move back to greece though.
you have some really great ideas there though. I really like the fireworks show idea. It brings out that maybe mages could make fireworks using different types of components (the more rare the better the show!). I also the spell vs counterspell idea. dart throwing is a cool addition too. we were planning to have exhibitions for fighters as well. You can be ranked and so on. We were planning to let players upload art and poetry. we really need to put a lot of thought into the ranged aspect. we envision the elves we see in books, hiding in trees and taking out unwary invaders. Haha. I like your ideas about the bows and the thrown objects but we are going to have to see how it plays out in the game. But I do like your suggestions. Thanks for all the input.
I also want to say a word about the classes. In this game you will start out and only pick a race and a look. After that it is your job (with a little help from us and the community) to pick a profession. For instance if you want to become a knight, then you will need to go to their fort in your city and apply. They shall give you a test(to act as a tutorial) and then when you pass you will be given armor and a choice of weapon. Depending on how rich your city is your starting equipment might be different. There will be some restrictions on this. For instance knights do not accept elves or dwarves. So on and so on.
Edit/ I also wanted to say a word about the priests in the game. Since priest magic is different from the mages we dicided do to something pretty fun with them. I got this idea when reading a forgotten realms book. Priest magic is through faith. Cadderly (the main character) found it through heavenly music that flowed like fine silk through his soul. So what we are planning is to have a wave of music come through when you want to cast and as the wave come music will play and an assortment of runes will fly by. You drag the runes in front of you and make a spell. Over time when you get better a new rune will appear there automatically. To use it though one must go to ones gods shrine and read books your peers have written. when you find the rune you will be able to see what you can cast using it. I think it will be pretty fun. I need feedback though. Also there will be after effects but not like the mages. thats all /edit
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My usual battle cry is..."AWWW....how did that happen?"
Last edited by Christos on Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:41 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Wed Apr 14, 2004 7:29 pm |
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InSaNe
Guards Lieutenant
Joined: 09 Nov 2002
Posts: 174
Location: Netherlands |
this will be one kick*ss game :p good luck with it[/spoiler]
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Never argue with a nOOb, First they take you down to their level and then they kill you with their skills |
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Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:36 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
quote:
Originally posted by Christos
@plin
Im sorry about your friends development team...
Cheers, hopefully they'll be OK. Unusually, Sony didn't leave them with nothing - he can't say too much but "we are in a good position regarding IP" is how he put it in an email . Sony agreed to continue funding for 3 months (even though they have no intention of continuing with the project) so the devco has an opportunity to pitch this game and their other projects and may be able to secure at least one new deal before the three months (and their only current source of funds) runs out. If they can't secure anything in that time they'll be in trouble, but... well, I don't want to jinx them, but suffice to say they have some great projects to pitch and some excellent technology (their lead programmer is a genius, by all accounts).
If they can get another publisher for the game Sony dropped, I think it might actually be for the best - they had to make several changes & drop several features under Sony, and my friend was becoming gradually less confident about the strength of the final game - now they can reinstate a lot of the stuff they originally wanted and they'll be pitching it as a 2005 release, so they should have enough time to implement the best stuff. Fingers crossed... 
Anyway... back on-topic - I was concerned about something before and forgot to mention it. It's about spellcasting, and my concern does not arise from anything you have said, rather from a failing (IMO) of many RPGs that does not seem to be a major concern of most developers. Here's the problem as I see it: most RPGs give magic-users a limited pool of mana (or whatever) with which to cast spells, which will eventually run out and leave the character totally ineffective (the D&D system has the same problem - once you've cast all your spells for the day, you are useless until you rest). While this is traditional, I see it as a major irritant and an imbalance in design - stripped of the tools of his trade, a fighter can still brawl his way out of a sticky situation, a thief can hide and evade, but a mage who has expended all his mana is impotent  and is forced to use tactics for which he has no training or aptitude.
Arx Fatalis aleviated this problem somewhat by giving you a naturally-recharging mana pool (so for a skilled mage, some spells' mana cost would be negligible - such a character could have low-level continuous spells in effect without completely negating their mana recharge rate, and cast low-level instantaneous spells without worrying too much about the additional cost) - this was great in principle, it just needed a bit of tweaking to get the balance a bit better (even the best mage character possible in that game could exhaust his mana pool in seconds, then have to wait minutes before being able to rejoin the action in a meaningful way).
Now, I see you are using ingredients for your spellcasting, which I haven't seen for a long time, and I must say I am quite looking forward to it (I think it's great when done in an interesting way - I really liked the distinctive spell-creation methods in Ultima8). But obviously, ingredients are exhaustable, and I'm wondering what you have planned for mages who run out? If an empty-pocketed mage is completely stripped of his main ability, I believe that would be a mistake... but I'm getting ahead of myself, I'll wait til I know your thoughts on this matter before I ramble further ... |
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Sat Apr 17, 2004 6:57 pm |
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Christos
Village Dweller
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 15
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@plin
I understand what you say about the mages. I also understand that it would be really bad if you had to go back to your house/apartement or to a trader just so that you can cast spells again. The answer is though that some early spells wont need components that are hard to find. in fact you can just about find them everywhere. There are also some spells that dont need components at all (but these are very weak). Some spells will even use your own blood. What im trying to say is that we have that in mind. We dont want the downtime but then again we dont want players to be able to cast 15 high level spells in 25 seconds. Its unrealistic (as far as fantasy goes). We see components as a way to make high level spells rare and powerful and low level spells easy. In fact we will have some items that will help. For instance, if you need a lot of sand for spells you could purchase a bottomless sack magically filled with sand. This way if the rest of your components run out you can always fall back on the spells that require only spells (or blood ). Yeah we still need to playtest this though. Its something we are planning to fine tune during beta testing. Also, because most of the components weigh so little you could hold a lot of them. Tell me if you see anything wrong. thanks
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My usual battle cry is..."AWWW....how did that happen?" |
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Sat Apr 17, 2004 9:59 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
That sounds cool to me. You've found ways to avoid unfairly crippling the magic-users, but without tipping the balance too far in their favour. I never considered the idea of having spell ingredients abundant in certain areas (so in a woodland area, maybe grass and different types of leaves could be used in some common spells? ...presumably a beach would be a great place for sand-based spells!) - that's brilliant.
It would be nice if you could include "ground" items in the actual casting interface - so as you are casting a spell, you can choose from any ingredients within reach, not just in your inventory. This would be nice and dynamic, better IMO than having to first collect the ingredients (as a seperate action) before being able to use them (although, if you do take the time to collect some, you could grab a sizeable amount - as opposed to grabbing some while casting, in which case you'd only grab enough for that spell).
And I guess this opens an avenue for MMO merchants/traders - plants or materials that can only be found in a certain part of the world could be transported long distances to sell to mages - no doubt for extortionate prices!
Great stuff, keep the good news coming. |
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Sun Apr 18, 2004 12:11 am |
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Namirrha
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 218
Location: Utah County, Utah. |
I've been lurking about this thread for a couple days. Christos, I cannot describe how excited I am and how much I wish you and your team the best on this. Please keep us updated! 
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Give me the shadows, shield me from the light, and I shall let nothing pass in the darkness of the night. |
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Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:16 am |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
I was digging around right at the bottom of a big pile of stuff, and I found this thread...
[bump]
Just wanted to make sure it didn't get lost forever after the recent uprising of old threads. I want to keep up with this one, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. |
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Sun May 02, 2004 9:00 pm |
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Drake14
Brigadier General
Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Posts: 1310
Location: Around |
i agree with you Piln, this new RPG sounds great
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Inhale Life, Exhale Pain
Navy, Accelerate your life |
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Sun May 02, 2004 10:13 pm |
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